Gender-neutral Baby Followup

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

But the only reason that they can do that is because society, as a whole, flips out over this topic. That's my whole point.

Most people in society don't give a rats ass how people raise their children UNLESS the children misbehave/are disrespectful on a regular basis or the parents end up in the media talking about how "special" and "unique" they are.

[Ellimenopy]

I don't believe in forcing narrow gender roles on children, but I'm generally suspicious of those who are so invested in being weird.

[louisa05]

By age 3, most kids are noticing that they have different parts than some other kids. How is this explained to Storm? And by this age, many kids aren't averse to stripping in public or pulling down their pants and peeing in the park, either. Are they hanging over this child constantly to see that that doesn't happen so the secret is safe and their experiment can continue?

[DarkAnts]

These parents could give sparkly lauren a run for her money.

[DGayle]

I believe that sex is nothing than a physical particularity. If people ask me if my baby is blond or brown, I say "He is blond." If people ask me is he is a boy or a girl, it means "does he have a dick or a vagina ?". So, I say it.

It seems that this parents are so obsessed about sex and gender. Just educate your children without thinking about it. I live with a 3 years old who loves pink and wearing princess dress. It doesn't mean that he want to be a girl, it just mean that he loves pink and princess. This parents put too much pressure on their children. Just let them what they are without thinking that giving pink and girl name to a boy will make him a girl, or giving a truck and boy name to a girl will make her a boy.

My thoughts exactly. We're teaching ours that they can like what they like and that a sex or gender is nothing more than a check box, but that they don't have to live in a box. Our kids know they're girls, and they know they have freedom. Storm doesn't have freedom.

[DGayle]

I remember when the then 6 year old I took care of wanted an ice cream maker. I took him to target or toys r us with the money he saved and we went looking for one. Oh how disappointed he was when the only ones they carried (that were child friendly) had girls on the box and he told me he couldn't get it because it was for girls and he was a boy. So we had a talk in the middle of the store about marketing and gender stereotypes. And I let him know that, while adults were closed minded and shallow, he didn't have to be.

He proudly marched out of the store holding the box in front of him and talking about all the ice cream he was going to make with it.

There's no reason that a pink and purple ice cream maker can't be for boys.

You handled that beautifully.

I always thought it was funny how kitchen toys are marketed to girls when the reality is the best chefs are usually men.

[Rebelwife]

You handled that beautifully.

I always thought it was funny how kitchen toys are marketed to girls when the reality is the best chefs are usually men.

I have to be a little hand-slappy with this, sorry! This industry is incredibly misogynistic in many ways and women have to work way harder to be taken seriously in the kitchen, but that doesn't make male chefs the best, just the most likely to get ahead.

[August]

There is no "gender neutral" toys, or "girl toys", or "boy toys". there's just toys. Don't listen to marketing, and feel free to offer pink and blue to both boys and girls. Offer.what you love and think is cute.

Marianne, here's an assignment. Go to a toy store.

[Trynn]

By age 3, most kids are noticing that they have different parts than some other kids. How is this explained to Storm? And by this age, many kids aren't averse to stripping in public or pulling down their pants and peeing in the park, either. Are they hanging over this child constantly to see that that doesn't happen so the secret is safe and their experiment can continue?

My friend and I, when we were little, used to go behind a tree and show each other our crotches.

My mom apparently didn't know, and she wanted to make sure I knew the difference between boys and girls before my first day of kindergarten

So she went to the library and got a nice book about the subject and she figured shed read it to me and we'd have a nice talk.

When she started this, I apparently informed her, "oh, I already KNOW that."

Well, it was a good plan, anyway.

[FJismyheadship]

At my daughters grandfathers memorial service, everyone thought she was a boy (she wore a plaid button up shirt with assorted colors in it and blue jeans) and at one point an aunt said we should have put a pretty dress on her. I just said I had a dress in the diaper bag as her backup outfit should we need to change. Later I realized it was the dress she wore the last time we all saw her grandfather and he liked that shirt. I wished I had realized that earlier when the aunt made that comment. I didn't mind people thinking she was a boy, people are gonna see what they wanna see. But the idea that I should put her in a dress so nobody is confused exasperated me.

At the same time, another relative that is a boy not much older than her was playing with the doll house and the stroller with the baby in it. Nobody really said anything about that, but my daughter needs to wear a dress so nobody thinks she is a boy lol. She loves monkeys and stuffed animals, is seemingly drawn to the color pink, but doesn't play with dolls. Most of her favorite toys would be considered "boy" She loves her books the best though :-)

I don't know where I am going with this except stereotypes are stupid.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I think what Marianne is saying is that it doesn't matter whether it is a sparkly pink dollhouse with little girls on the box, or a camouflage coloured toy gun with little boys on the box, or whether it comes from a part of the store labelled girls or boys....even the pink sparkly princess dress can be gender neutral if you don't decide that pink sparkly things are the only ones your kid can get because shes a girl, or that he cant get these things because he is a boy.

Yes, it is somewhat annoying that most toys that are stereotypically for girls (dolls, play kitchens, etc.) are pink, but that doesn't mean these are only for girls if you refuse to listen to people telling you that these things make it for girls.

My two year old loves pink-its the first colour she recognised and whenever she sees something pink she shouts "PINK ONE!". She also has a thing about flowers lately-whenever we go out she insists on picking a handful of daisies or dandelions to carry with her. She also has never been interested in dolls, but instead loves cars, trains, planes, helicopters...anything transport related, as well as dinosaurs. She also loves Peppa Pig and singing nursery rhymes. She loves animals and is always noticing cute animals she sees, like pointing and shouting "Awww cute doggie!" when she sees someone walking their dog. She also finds insects and spiders adorable too-that is mainly me conditioning the kids to not being scared of them because I baby talk to my tarantulas and like pointing out random really cool bugs that I see when out. Her favourite toys are a plastic toy ice cream cone, a big pink car that opens on the top, which she can then put other toys in, toy cars and a cuddly dinosaur that I got her this Easter because I got sick of rolling over in bed on top of the little plastic ones.

[Marianne]

I think what Marianne is saying is that it doesn't matter whether it is a sparkly pink dollhouse with little girls on the box, or a camouflage coloured toy gun with little boys on the box, or whether it comes from a part of the store labelled girls or boys....even the pink sparkly princess dress can be gender neutral if you don't decide that pink sparkly things are the only ones your kid can get because shes a girl, or that he cant get these things because he is a boy.

Yes, it is somewhat annoying that most toys that are stereotypically for girls (dolls, play kitchens, etc.) are pink, but that doesn't mean these are only for girls if you refuse to listen to people telling you that these things make it for girls.

.

Yes, that what I was saying :-). It's not because marketing tell us that pink is for girl that pink is for girl (wich is funny, because in the 19th century, pink/red was for boy because of the blood of the christ, and blue was for girls because of the virgin Mary. I think it changes in 1950 with Barbie, etc...). I've beenn in too much toy store (because in our Leclerc - kind of Wallmart -, you have to cross ALL the toy store to access to the good, wich is the best way to finish your shopping with a crying 3 years old or an empty wallet), and I know how marketing do. I just don't car. Toys are toys, that's all.

[tropaka]

let's be clear here - whether or not Storm is male or female isn't being kept from him/her or the other kids - just others. That said, I think that they're making a big deal out of this for attention. The mom saying she has "celebrity status"? Come on...

[ShadowyOne]

I have to be a little hand-slappy with this, sorry! This industry is incredibly misogynistic in many ways and women have to work way harder to be taken seriously in the kitchen, but that doesn't make male chefs the best, just the most likely to get ahead.

I was going to point this out, too, and I am married to a male chef. I don't know exactly how the tradition off "women are the best home cooks" vs. "men are the best professional cooks" dichotomy came about (other than it seems to be from the French tradition/kitchen hierarchy), but I can attest that it is true.

[Marianne]

I was going to point this out, too, and I am married to a male chef. I don't know exactly how the tradition off "women are the best home cooks" vs. "men are the best professional cooks" dichotomy came about (other than it seems to be from the French tradition/kitchen hierarchy), but I can attest that it is true.

The king & the aristocrats/rich bourgeois had male cook, when poor bourgeois had just women wo were servant et did the cooking. If you had monney, you had a male, if you don't had monney, you had a female.

[jaelh]

i think there are two separate things.

1) are the parents being attention hogging asses, and potentially Bad Parents?

Very likely.

2) is raising a child gender neutral a Bad Thing?

The answer is - much less likely so (though I see many of you would disagree). I've known 2 people raised gender neutral; one is still per-pubescent; another is now a grown, mans mans man who is one of the most empathetic, lovely people I've ever met and doesn't regret a scrap of his unconventional upbringing. many intersex persons grow up and want to assert an intersex identity - getting a bit more comfortable with the idea that boy/girl binary isn't the only way we need to understand people might do us all some good.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

i think there are two separate things.

1) are the parents being attention hogging asses, and potentially Bad Parents?

Very likely.

2) is raising a child gender neutral a Bad Thing?

The answer is - much less likely so (though I see many of you would disagree). I've known 2 people raised gender neutral; one is still per-pubescent; another is now a grown, mans mans man who is one of the most empathetic, lovely people I've ever met and doesn't regret a scrap of his unconventional upbringing. many intersex persons grow up and want to assert an intersex identity - getting a bit more comfortable with the idea that boy/girl binary isn't the only way we need to understand people might do us all some good.

Again, I really wouldn't care about their choice if they didn't go at it in a "holier than thou, my kid will always be this way, aren't we special, and we are the best parents ever so we had to tell the media do you'd know too" way. And, like at least a few others here, I am worried about what the parents behavior will do to the child. As was pointed out before, the sex of this child is being so heavily guarded that you have to think about the long term reprocussions in regards to sexual identity and being comfortable in his or her own skin.

Again I have absolutely NO problem with throwing out gender stereotypes, allowing kids to act and dress however they want (within reason, I won't allow a kid to act like a brat or bully; but that's different), and educating close minded people about how allowing your child to do those thing isn't going to harm them in the least. But I DO have a problem with the exact nature of this family's investment in Storm as being "different." Once you slam the door on gender stereotypes, you deny one of the ways a child can identify.

One of the girls I took care of was VERY into fashion. At the age of 18 months, she knew exactly what outfit she wanted to wear and she built outfits from the shoes up (even dictated how I should do her hair). She loved pink and purple, loved sequins and sparkles, absolutely loved dresses and skirts, and always wanted a bow or a flowe in her hair (even if she was wearing a hat). Her wardrobe was stuffed with clothes of all types, even hand me downs from her brother and male cousins. But that's what she wanted to wear.

I'm afraid that if Storm is a girl, she wouldn't be allowed to dress that way because it's a gender stereotype.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Also, I can't help but think that avoiding a gender distinction is actually perpetuating gender roles more than breaking them. You're saying boys can't act like girls and girls can't act like boys unless no one knows they are a boy or girl.

I was raised a girl because I was born a girl. But that didn't stop my parents from buying me Tonka trucks, teaching me that getting dirty was a sign that you were having fun, let me try out for multiple sports, letting me dress in less than feminine clothes, etc. Similarly, they let my brother play dressup an wear dresses/heels, let him participate in musicals, play with baby dolls, etc.

We broke gender roles without having to hide who we are from society.

Exactly.

I do see a value in not going over the top to make sure that everyone knows your bald baby is a girl (with a huge hair bow) or a boy (make sure he always wears blue or camo, precisely because of the social signal value). People seem to have a need to know the sex of your kid before interacting so they can say the "right" thing, and that needs to be called out. Dress a kid in green.

But at the same time, in natural conversation, saying "this is my son" should be fine - even if the kid is wearing a dress and sparkly shoes at the time.

When I first read the article I thought it was about not telling random stranger outsiders the kid's sex at first meeting, but the kid of course would know (and ideally be raised in an environment where the sex is just a fact like eye color, doesn't matter at all until it's time to reproduce). But it seems that even inside the family too they're telling this kid that gender is some big important deal that must be decided? I just don't get it.

You've got your naughty bits of whatever configuration, you have a personality and interests, there's no required correlation between the two things. Just let people do what they want.

They're teaching this child to hide a part of him/herself rather than to say screw the norms and like what he/she likes. And yes, they're perpetrating stereotypes by sending the message that a boy can't like dolls and a girl can't like trucks, so better hide sex to the child can have it all.

Indeed. That seems to be a popular sentiment lately - that heaven forbid a kid like something outside stereotype, because if that happens then all of a sudden the kid must be "special" somehow and we need to have conversations about "gender." Just let the kid play with whatever already. It's this insidious "oh my female child likes trucks so maybe something exotic is going on!" that I find disturbing, personally.

It's telling how fundementally uncomfortabel society is when someone refuses to tell them something as simple as "What's behind the baby's diaper?"

Absolutely this too, though. That's the part I think does need to be called out, and I'm all for people eschewing both pink and blue on baby kids. No problem calling a kid "she" or whatever, but this need to broadcast it with shibboleths visually is just weird. Heck, you tell someone you're pregnant these days and instantly it's all about "do you know the sex yet?" and then if you don't or worse yet if you leave for a surprise people will ask you how you'll know what color to paint the baby's room and what clothes to get. I mean, really? It's gotten wayyyy out there.

I believe that sex is nothing than a physical particularity. If people ask me if my baby is blond or brown, I say "He is blond." If people ask me is he is a boy or a girl, it means "does he have a dick or a vagina ?". So, I say it.

It seems that this parents are so obsessed about sex and gender. Just educate your children without thinking about it. I live with a 3 years old who loves pink and wearing princess dress. It doesn't mean that he want to be a girl, it just mean that he loves pink and princess. This parents put too much pressure on their children. Just let them what they are without thinking that giving pink and girl name to a boy will make him a girl, or giving a truck and boy name to a girl will make her a boy.

Pretty much my thoughts on the matter too.

McDonald's and the like just need to ask "do you want the widget or the gadget?" Say directly what the toy is, or what series it's from, and let the kid pick.

My favorite graphic about boy vs. girl toys is this one (under a spoiler since I can only find a huge one and have no idea how to resize):

[evenstar210]

http://www.womenyoushouldknow.net/littl ... thing-say/

I thought this was relevant, considering the discussion.

[Rebelwife]

http://www.womenyoushouldknow.net/little-girl-1981-lego-ad-grown-shes-got-something-say/

I thought this was relevant, considering the discussion.

What a cool article!

[DGayle]

I was going to point this out, too, and I am married to a male chef. I don't know exactly how the tradition off "women are the best home cooks" vs. "men are the best professional cooks" dichotomy came about (other than it seems to be from the French tradition/kitchen hierarchy), but I can attest that it is true.

I'm drawing no difference between home cooks and professionals. They're both cooking.

[Mela99]

I don't get why they just don't... I don't know, be open and accepting about whatever their kid says or does or wants? Have all the colors in their clothes, all the toys, and just... not make every waking second about sex and gender?

[ShadowyOne]

I'm drawing no difference between home cooks and professionals. They're both cooking.

Hmmm... I was acknowledging that there is a strange dissonance between the fact that it's harder to find a woman chef (except often in pastry) in higher-end restaurants, but in the wider world, it isn't considered "manly" for the husband to cook at home (case in point, kitchen toys marketed to girls). So your point is an across-the-board statement that men are better cooks than women? Are there other professions/activities/skills that you would state that one gender is unequivocally better at than the other? I really wouldn't (taking physical differences into account, but I don't think that applies in cooking). I find that perspective rather limiting.

[Terrie]

I don't get why they just don't... I don't know, be open and accepting about whatever their kid says or does or wants? Have all the colors in their clothes, all the toys, and just... not make every waking second about sex and gender?

My understanding of the idea in general (not this specific media circus) is that the issue is concern about how society genders behavior. People respond differently to identical behaviors depending on if the child is identified as a girl or a boy. The idea is not to force the child to behave in a manner that is gender neutral, but to force society to respond to any behavior in a way that is gender neutral.

Part of the issue is that the term "gender" actually covers different, though related, topics. The concept is trying to address gender roles not gender identity.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

My understanding of the idea in general (not this specific media circus) is that the issue is concern about how society genders behavior. People respond differently to identical behaviors depending on if the child is identified as a girl or a boy. The idea is not to force the child to behave in a manner that is gender neutral, but to force society to respond to any behavior in a way that is gender neutral.

Part of the issue is that the term "gender" actually covers different, though related, topics. The concept is trying to address gender roles not gender identity.

Unfortunately, I don't think that acting like a child is without a gender is going to break gender stereotypes. Theres no reason you can't teach your child to do what makes them happy and educate close minded people when you get the opportunity.

Raising kids without a gender in hopes of smashing gender stereotypes is like telling people you have a mutt because you are worried that they'll stereotype your pit bull.