Jump to content
IGNORED

Gender-neutral Baby Followup


tropaka

Recommended Posts

There's also the level to which kids are conscious of it.

I buy clothes for my daughter from both sides of the aisle. She doesn't get a lot of media interaction (and doesn't go to daycare yet), and I do get to control, at least somewhat, the crap she absorbs.

But starting recently, she eschews all things 'boy'. She doesn't want 'boy' clothes. So if she gathers that it's boys (from where I pick it up in the store, if she's with me, or from the tags (she can't read, but she knows that girl starts w/ G and boy with B), etc, she says 'that's boys, I want girls".

Which means her wardrobe, that already leaned toward pink (because, i swear, she does it just to irk me :-P. She just...gravitates to pink. and superhero.) is getting pinker, because at the store, if given the choice between 5 shirts, she'll pick the one she knows is 'supposed' to be girly.

I have told her--in action, word, and deed, that the people who create narrow boxes are wrong, that there are many ways to be a girl, that she likes what she likes, no matter what. That colors are for everyone, that she should always be who she wants....

and 15 minutes with her worshiped cousin (who is an awesome girl, FTR) undoes an awful lot of that awfully fast

(that and I do try to put my money where my mouth is--I say she can be what she wants...so she can be a frilly pink princess, even if it slays me. But then people see her in frilly pink and get her more frilly pink and after the next holiday, we drown in it.

But, this too shall pass)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 98
  • Created
  • Last Reply

We get a lot of hand me downs, which I'm not about to turn down. My daughter gets them from my friend who said before her daughter was born that she would NEVER buy her anything pink. Yeah that didn't last long but she does get a variety of colors and I mix in hand me downs from my son. I feel like both my kids have a lot of colors in their wardrobe although my son's pink shirt is a dress shirt not a play shirt. I also only do characters if my kids actually like them, which means all the tiny clothes are character free. I got too tired when my son was a year old and people would start talking to him about Elmo and he'd look at them like they had three heads since he wasn't into Elmo.

My kids both always got mistaken for the other gender. Sometimes I'd correct but most of the time I'd just let it go. What does it matter? However raising them that their sex is a secret seems to be placing a lot of emphasis on it. Does Storm know the proper name for their genitals? My son would have totally blown the whistle if we tried to keep his sex a secret given how often he talks about his penis.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just looked at gymboree. Lots & Lots of non pink clothing. It bothers me that clothes for babies/toddlers are grouped into "boy" and "girl" and that for some reason boys have the option of blue hippos, yet girls get get "safari." However, my goodness are tiny clothes expensive!

Gymboree and Childrens Place are definitely on the pricier side, but they last FOREVER. I've known pieces from those stores to be handed down at least 10 times with the majority of the kids being quite messy and adventurous. I've never even seen a piece fade or rip.

Even the pieces found in 2nd hand stores are in great shape.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 years later...

This still just seems so attention seeking to me. Why do they have to make a big production over the way they're raising their children? Just raise them the way you want and keep them out of the spotlight. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why do I get the feeling that these parents would be majorly disappointed if their children chose a gender that matched their sex? They seem way to eager to be seen as a family of special snowflakes. I get a real Sparkling Lauren vibe from them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm always glad when parents are open-minded about their children's gender identity, but I find it a little cruel that they're making their children's development so public and media-curated. Growing up is hard enough without the spotlight.

I also think that for people who are on one hand so flexible, on the other hand they seem to be in quite a hurry for the kids to self-define. People's understanding of their gender identity generally matures with time (like with any other form of identity,) but the parents seem pretty invested in the kids sitting down and making a choice with a map and a list of pronoun options, rather than just letting the development happen more naturally. These parents just seem so bound and determined to make sure everyone in the family has a label.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The way the parents made gender identity such a huge attention seaking part of their life, I feel they pushed their kids to choose a gender queer identity. They pushed so hard for this that I have a hard time believing that the kids wouldn't get showered with postive attention everytime they chose something against their natural sex gender sterotype.

 

The likelihood of having a majority of your children being noncis is extremely unlikely. I have no proof other than speculation but I believe these parents pushed their children to adopt non-cis personalities to suit their social objectives and their public social experiment on their own children. These children likely get a lot more attention from mom and dad when they choose the skirts, braided pigtails, nail polish, purple sandals  vs. Iron man t shirts, baseball vaps without a social justice logo on it, hot wheels over stuffed animals. I wouldn't be surprised when presented with choices the parents ask several times if they would prefer the non-cis sterotype choice as a way to guide the child to the choice the parent wants. That way, then the parents can self congratulate themselves for being so open minded in letting their child make the choice no matter the fact that it was subtly guided. I don't buy that the children came to these chocies naturally. I believe the parents molded these identities for the kids to suit their own social justice wants for attention.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, McDoodleDoodleDoo said:

I believe the parents molded these identities for the kids to suit their own social justice wants for attention.

I have to agree with this. The seven year old who "identifies as non-binary" is a striking example. I find it hard to imagine a child that young truly comprehending what non-binary means. Gender identity is a lot more complicated than liking both "boy" toys and "girl" toys or being equally comfortable in a dress and overalls, and I'm just not sure how a second grader would parse all the nuances of what gender means to the individual and in society. The child very well may be non-binary, but I don't think that picking that identity out of a book at age seven really gives an accurate picture of the whole person.

I mostly just don't get why there has to be a rush for a child that young to "identify as" anything at all beyond just a child.

There are some other weird conformist behaviors in the family too, like their pro and con list and vote about public school. The family discussion is all well and good, of course, but... it doesn't seem to have occurred to the parents that not all the kids had to pick the same option. Couldn't, for example, Jazz go to public school and Storm be homeschooled if that was what was best for the individual child? Voting may be more "democratic," but ultimately it forces all the kids to go in the same direction, and I don't see why that would be necessary if both options are feasible for the family.

That seems to be this family's MO in general from what I've read about them: individuality, but only to a point, and after that you'd better plan to fit in with the family program.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find it very odd, in this odd situation, that the mother would decide to change her pronoun to be referred to as "they".

I find this family somewhat ironic in that their commitment to being so "alternative" might be just as harmful in the long-run as a rigidly traditional parenting style. 

The father wrote a Social Justice math text a few years ago.  http://ourtimes.ca/Between_Times/article_69.php

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anytime people appear to be so focused on attention-seeking, and especially when they make it about their kids, it makes me suspicious of them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

These folks are silently screaming "Look at us! Look at our LQBTQ Friendly noncis family!" I am jealous that whatever they do for a living enables them to play with fun hair colors,  though.  I agree with previous comments that these little ones are awfully young to fully understand the labels these parents are waving around. Let kids be kids and learn who they are in their own time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Khan said:

Let kids be kids and learn who they are in their own time.

Exactly! Telling your kid "You just be you, and we'll support whatever that looks like" is healthy. Opening a book and instructing your kindergartener to select a gender identity and pronouns (with cisgender strongly discouraged, at least by implication) and then publishing the results in the newspaper is not. Kids will figure this stuff out in their own time if they aren't stifled by someone telling them who they have to be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Too late to edit my previous post, but looking at the gender map they used, I have some concerns about that too:

For one thing, I think it's intended for an older audience than what they're using it for. I'm a cisgender female, but I'm fairly confident that using their map at Storm's age, I would have identified as either gender diverse or male. That's because I would have identified with the rainbow island more than the pink island, and the male island has trees while the female one doesn't. As a kindergartner, I would have been more baffled by the absence of trees than truly understanding gender identification; trees are concrete, and gender is fairly abstract. I'm just not confident that the map would have been useful to me at such a young age - it seems like it's more for older elementary and teens.

The map does a great job with describing some concepts, but seems stuck in a bias that some gender identities are more valid than others. For example, being gender neutral is described as "populated entirely by travelers" (other identities are described as having "citizens") with no further explanation, and agender is some satellite off in the atmosphere that's not even part of the same world as everyone else and gets no commentary at all as it floats around in the dark. 

It also troubles me that it separates "masculine women" and "feminine men" from the rest of their gender (literally, there's a dotted line cordoning them off) and uses words like "tomboy" and "femme" without really examining what those words mean or where stereotypes end and identity begins. I'm also not understanding why Sydney's very valid statement is identified as "puerile" unless the map designer was unaware that word has a negative connotation.

There are things I like about the map, and I'm not saying I could do better, but... I'm not entirely comfortable with all aspects of it or how the family used it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find it so impersonal  that Storm refers her mom as her first name. My great grandma made my grandma call her by her first name and grandma said she was not very affectionate. We have a friend who is a parent and transitioning: He goes by Macaw or Mapaw.  I know others that make up names for blended family to feel more connected. 

As long as the clothes are weather appropriate and we get to our destination on time (6 year old nephew, 2 year daughter) I don't care what they are wearing. I have seen my nephew have a yellow skirt with a batman shirt and daughter in a iron man shirt  with matching gloves. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On July 11, 2016 at 7:57 PM, sparkles said:

Why do I get the feeling that these parents would be majorly disappointed if their children chose a gender that matched their sex? They seem way to eager to be seen as a family of special snowflakes. I get a real Sparkling Lauren vibe from them. 

This reminds me a bit of my uncle. He's bi and is desperate for his children to also not be straight and cis. One of his children is bi, the others don't seem to care. And it almost seems like he's trying to force his youngest son to be trans. The boy has hair past his shoulder blades and frequently gets mistaken for a girl, which he hates. He's adamant that he's a boy and that's that, but his father doesn't seem to accept that. 

I'm so used to reading about fundies trying to pigeonhole their children's gender and sexuality  that it always takes me aback when I see secular parents doing the same in different ways. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/11/2016 at 7:57 PM, sparkles said:

. I get a real Sparkling Lauren vibe from them. 

That is NOT a vibe you want to get from anyone. I see it too. Lauren must be a personal friend of theirs. Yikes. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

57 minutes ago, princessmahina said:

This reminds me a bit of my uncle. He's bi and is desperate for his children to also not be straight and cis. One of his children is bi, the others don't seem to care. And it almost seems like he's trying to force his youngest son to be trans. The boy has hair past his shoulder blades and frequently gets mistaken for a girl, which he hates. He's adamant that he's a boy and that's that, but his father doesn't seem to accept that. 

I'm so used to reading about fundies trying to pigeonhole their children's gender and sexuality  that it always takes me aback when I see secular parents doing the same in different ways. 

Reminds me of a friend. She is a lesbian, and I swear to god she was just fucking DELIGHTED her grandson came out as gay. Like since fucking when do we get all woohooohooo about our children's sexual identity? It sort of grossed me out. then, last time I saw her she was all super whoophdeedoo because her granddaughter said "I am 19 and am going to fuck everyone I can this summer". I was like, really lady?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My youngest son and I have discussions pretty often about how people hurt their reasonably good cause by being so goshdarned annoying. He's a bit more conservative than most of the rest of the family, and I honestly think part of it is that the faces of certain causes aren't really the backbone of them, only he's not so sure about that.

As to Storm, when I was her age, her being the current chosen pronoun, I loved Bret Maverick so hard, I wanted cowboy clothes and boots, and was very upset when I received cowgirl clothes, instead. That was later rectified, because I was sort of a brat and got my way most of the time.

But looking back, it was pretty easy to tell that I didn't want to be Bret Maverick, I just wanted to do him. Only my little brain wasn't ready to see it that way yet. There was time enough for that later on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, backyard sylph said:

<snip> As to Storm, when I was her age, her being the current chosen pronoun, I loved Bret Maverick so hard, I wanted cowboy clothes and boots, and was very upset when I received cowgirl clothes, instead. That was later rectified, because I was sort of a brat and got my way most of the time.

But looking back, it was pretty easy to tell that I didn't want to be Bret Maverick, I just wanted to do him. Only my little brain wasn't ready to see it that way yet. There was time enough for that later on.

Temporary thread derail: I just gotta know... Which Bret Maverick? The original 57-62 version (coughmyeracough), the 80s thing (still James Garner) or the movie with fuckwit Mel Gibson?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, sparkles said:

Temporary thread derail: I just gotta know... Which Bret Maverick? The original 57-62 version (coughmyeracough), the 80s thing (still James Garner) or the movie with fuckwit Mel Gibson?

James Garner, original flavor. That was 1970, so it was in reruns, though I didn't know it then. Most of what I watched back then was reruns and it took years for me to figure out what I actually saw new/when the other stuff actually first aired. :-)

Also, I still would, in a baby's heartbeat, except for the fact that he has passed along.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's great that parents (and society as a whole) is becoming more accepting on the whole of different gender identities. I think it's wonderful that many people are educating their children about different ways people may choose to identify beyond cisgender, supporting them no matter what gender(s) they identify as, and defending their children's right to self-identify to other people who don't respect it.

This sort of public show of the child's gender identity journey (as they put it) just seems rather invasive of all their children's privacy. Also, I seriously doubt they'll change many minds with their current approach, rather than just simply demonstrating by example the positive results of accepting and loving your child regardless of how they identify (in gender, in sexuality, in whatever). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...

I heard somewhere that this was all in response to their first child (Jazz) coming out as a trans girl at a very early age, and then they decided to conceal the gender of their third child supposedly to give him/her/them the least amount of societal pressure possible. Today, they are all outside the binary. Coincidentally.

What bothers me the most about this family is their treatment of gender as being purely expressive/spiritual and their complete rejection of the concept of biological sex. Many transgender people go to great lengths to acquire physical features that make them feel "correct," (for lack of a better term) and, while it's sometimes in part to conform to traditional beauty standards, a lot of efforts are made in an attempt to alleviate gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is the general term for the feeling of a mismatch between one's gender identity and biological sex, and a common symptom is the desire to add or remove primary or secondary sexual characteristics in response to their identity. On one hand, you could have a trans woman undergo facial feminization and breast implants while taking hormone injections; on the other, you could have a DFAB (Designated Female At Birth) nonbinary person choose to remove their breasts even though they don't identify as male. Both could be treating their gender dysphoria this way, with the latter example feeling that breasts weren't right for their body somehow (the un-orthodoxy of this decision drives home the intuitive nature of this concept). Not all transgender people choose to undergo such invasive procedures, nor do they have to. Regardless, it's something worth acknowledging when engaging in discourse about trans issues, particularly when they hit close to home. I don't suppose this family is having these types of discussions.

While it's all fine and dandy to be inclusive of trans identities outside of biological constraints, I really hope this family is seriously considering a plan regarding their childrens' healthcare, namely Jazz's. Assuming Jazz is truly a trans girl, she's in for a potential nightmare once she reaches puberty. I'd hate to hear that her parents denied her hormone replacement therapy in favor of chintzy new-agey philosophy that chalks her distress up to "societal pressure". Meanwhile, she'll rapidly acquire a masculine body and be coerced into accepting the joys of being "different" as a visibly-trans person, which could have been easily avoided had she been allowed to transition properly. It'd be one think if she herself doesn't feel it's necessary, but how do we know at this point?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.




×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.