PCUSA/ECO split?

[stonefruit]

I'm not sure if this is fundie enough to qualify for this part of the forum, but I was wondering if anyone had any insight to share on the split that occurred recently in the mainline Presbyterian church. From what I can gather, the new denomination - ECO: A Covenant Order of Evangelical Presbyterians - refers to itself as reformed in theology, but allows women to be pastors; gay men and women are not allowed to be pastors.

 

Anyone have any insight/information about this? I've seen it referred to as "Presbyterians without gays," and I'm wondering if that's accurate, among other things.

[PennySycamore]

It sounds something like those Episcopal Churches that got their panties all in a bunch after Gene Robinson was ordained (elevated?) to the episcopacy. Unfortunately, my husband got involved in one of these "anglican" churches and even got himself ordained a priest. It's not like he's been to actual seminary. (I'm not saying that he couldn't have gone to seminary. He could have; the education he got, though, should not be considered as a real seminary education.) These churches are NOT recognized as part of the worldwide Anglican communion. The "Anglican" church that my husband is involved with ordained women at first, but then decided not to. You'd think after almost 40 years of women priests that Anglicans would not be so upset by a woman celebrating the Eucharist.

I'm not the least bit surprised that First Pres in downtown Greenville is part of this. They've been rightward-leaning jerks for years.

[Rebelwife]

It sounds something like those Episcopal Churches that got their panties all in a bunch after Gene Robinson was ordained (elevated?) to the episcopacy. Unfortunately, my husband got involved in one of these "anglican" churches and even got himself ordained a priest. It's not like he's been to actual seminary. (I'm not saying that he couldn't have gone to seminary. He could have; the education he got, though, should not be considered as a real seminary education.) These churches are NOT recognized as part of the worldwide Anglican communion. The "Anglican" church that my husband is involved with ordained women at first, but then decided not to. You'd think after almost 40 years of women priests that Anglicans would not be so upset by a woman celebrating the Eucharist.

I'm not the least bit surprised that First Pres in downtown Greenville is part of this. They've been rightward-leaning jerks for years.

One of the ECUSA churches we attended briefly split during this time. They were all set to go under the Bishop of Uganda :shock: when they realized he wouldn't recognize their well-like Associate Rector who was a women. Oops. I'm not sure which African Bishop they eventually found......

The way I look at it - they're happier and I'm certainly happier that anti-gay faction is gone. Those who left were so sure everyone was going to follow and then the Anglican Communion would have to recognize them as the true Anglican church in the US, dropping the ECUSA. Didn't exactly go down that way.

[Rebelwife]

I guess I don't know enough about this, but where does the PCA fit into all of this? They're much more conservative compared to the PCUSA, aren't they? I wonder if this ECO found the PCA too conservative or not conservative enough, or if they just didn't want to share the sandbox?

[GenerationCedarchip]

I'm PCUSA nowadays, so I'll try to explain. From everything I've read, the ECO is a small denomination that started as an alternative to the EPC. Here's a (very) rough listing:

PCUSA - mainline denomination; already pretty liberal and gradually growing more so

EPC - Fairly moderate Presby denomination - started by some churches who felt like the mainline put insufficient emphasis on evangelism and missions; they're more conservative that PCUSA as well as more evangelical and I don't think they ordain active gay clergy. I've attended an EPC and I have a friend who is pastor in that denomination. They tend to be mainstream evangelical churches. However, the decision whether to have female clergy is left up to individual presbyteries, and there aren't too many female pastors in the denomination.

PCA - Conservative denomination founded in the 1970s when the branches of Presby mainline churches united to form the PCUSA. They do not ordain women, and also tend to differ with PCUSA on a number of points of doctrine(incl. Calvinism.) PCA churches can vary a lot in degree of conservatism. A few are mainstream evangelical, but most tend to be fundie-lite to fundie. I grew up in a fundie PCA church.

ECO - This denomination is a recent creation. In some areas, it caught on because the EPC is a small denomination and did not have a presence in the areas where these churches were formed. It also was a popular alternative for those congregations wishing to leave the PCUSA over recent denominational votes (movement toward ordaining gays, support for Palestine and condemnation of Israel, etc..). ECO is more conservative than PCUSA, but they freely ordain women and some churches choose to join this denomination because they see EPC as too conservative.

OPC - this is the VERY conservative Presby denomination; pretty much all reformed fundie

So, in terms of liberalism, the order would be:

PCUSA ---> ECO---> EPC ----> PCA ----> OPC

[stonefruit]

Thanks, GenerationCedarchip, that's really helpful. Part of my interest in this is that the pastor of a church in my area was involved in founding the ECO, and one of his children is a very out, and pretty well-known, writer.

[PennySycamore]

One of the ECUSA churches we attended briefly split during this time. They were all set to go under the Bishop of Uganda :shock: when they realized he wouldn't recognize their well-like Associate Rector who was a women. Oops. I'm not sure which African Bishop they eventually found......

The way I look at it - they're happier and I'm certainly happier that anti-gay faction is gone. Those who left were so sure everyone was going to follow and then the Anglican Communion would have to recognize them as the true Anglican church in the US, dropping the ECUSA. Didn't exactly go down that way.

The bishop problem might be why the splinter group that my husband joined no longer ordains women. However, they are no longer associated with the Bishop of Rwanda and are instead associated with the Bishop of Tanzania. They're still not part of the Anglican communion.

I remember some of the people from the splinter group talking about their split from the Episcopal Church. At first, they attracted about half the old congregation. They were positively gleeful about this. Most of those people didn't stay though with the splinter group though. I suppose they didn't hate gays enough to stay. Do I need to say that I wanted to throw up?

[Rebelwife]

I'm PCUSA nowadays, so I'll try to explain. From everything I've read, the ECO is a small denomination that started as an alternative to the EPC. Here's a (very) rough listing:

PCUSA - mainline denomination; already pretty liberal and gradually growing more so

EPC - Fairly moderate Presby denomination - started by some churches who felt like the mainline put insufficient emphasis on evangelism and missions; they're more conservative that PCUSA as well as more evangelical and I don't think they ordain active gay clergy. I've attended an EPC and I have a friend who is pastor in that denomination. They tend to be mainstream evangelical churches. However, the decision whether to have female clergy is left up to individual presbyteries, and there aren't too many female pastors in the denomination.

PCA - Conservative denomination founded in the 1970s when the branches of Presby mainline churches united to form the PCUSA. They do not ordain women, and also tend to differ with PCUSA on a number of points of doctrine(incl. Calvinism.) PCA churches can vary a lot in degree of conservatism. A few are mainstream evangelical, but most tend to be fundie-lite to fundie. I grew up in a fundie PCA church.

ECO - This denomination is a recent creation. In some areas, it caught on because the EPC is a small denomination and did not have a presence in the areas where these churches were formed. It also was a popular alternative for those congregations wishing to leave the PCUSA over recent denominational votes (movement toward ordaining gays, support for Palestine and condemnation of Israel, etc..). ECO is more conservative than PCUSA, but they freely ordain women and some churches choose to join this denomination because they see EPC as too conservative.

OPC - this is the VERY conservative Presby denomination; pretty much all reformed fundie

So, in terms of liberalism, the order would be:

PCUSA ---> ECO---> EPC ----> PCA ----> OPC

Thank you, that was very helpful. The two biggest and oldest Presbyterian churches in town are PCUSA, but we have a PCA church near us that is getting huge and may well surpass the other congregations soon. They're pretty far up the conservative scale, I think, for sure fundy-lite. We also have a mid-size OPC church in town and I was always curious about that one, because I didn't know anything about it.

[GenerationCedarchip]

Thank you, that was very helpful. The two biggest and oldest Presbyterian churches in town are PCUSA, but we have a PCA church near us that is getting huge and may well surpass the other congregations soon. They're pretty far up the conservative scale, I think, for sure fundy-lite. We also have a mid-size OPC church in town and I was always curious about that one, because I didn't know anything about it.

Glad to help. This is the OPC statement of belief, if you're interested:

opc.org/beliefs.html

OPC churches tend to be in communion with the PCA and RPC(i.e. they more or less get along and sometimes will share resources.) The RPC (Reformed Presby Church) is another small offshoot that is more conservative than PCA. If I'm remembering right, RPC is the branch of presbyterian churches that will only sing the psalms and uses no other hymns because other hymns aren't in the Bible.

There are lots of branches of Presbyterianism, but these are the main ones. If anyone's interested, this chart is really cool and helps with telling which folks are part of which churches:

tateville.com/churches.html

[uber frau]

In my experience, reformed churches split more often than most ppl change their underwear. It's all part of the fun of Calvinism.

[deltaburkefan]

Thanks, GenerationCedarchip, that's really helpful. Part of my interest in this is that the pastor of a church in my area was involved in founding the ECO, and one of his children is a very out, and pretty well-known, writer.

I know who you're talking about, and I thought the reason his church wanted to split from PCUSA was mainly for financial reasons.