Ben Seewald's Calvinism

[nokidsmom]

I don't see a whole lot of church shopping around here, but maybe it's the crowd I hang out with - we're the more liberal sort who seem to have a "live and let live" attitude about religion. Alternatively, it could be because I live in a southern city with a lot of "old families" and it would probably be sacrilegious, or at least slightly scandalous, to leave a church where your great-grandparents were baptized and your family's name is surely on a plaque somewhere. :lol:

(My city actually is pretty liberal, given where we're located. Our county is generally the lone blue spot in a sea of red every election.)

Most of my family has done some church shopping even within the same denomination, but me, even time I think about possibly going church shopping, I decide to just remain my unchurched, agnostic self.

My sister, OTOH, positively agonized about switching churches when she moved to a town where there weren't many churches of her denomination (it's a primarily LDS area), and considered going to a different denomination even though it was a better fit for her.

[Marianne]

I don't know if that fact that everyone have a religion in America is beautiful (I think it's just historical, cujus regio, ejus religio in Europe, and... what you want in USA), but from my point of view it's just fascinating. I have dream to study a lot of thing - history, philosophy - but if I had been able to study what i wanted, I would have been in antholopology and studied religion in America. Seriously. A lot of people have did it, but it seems there's always something new to say (hey, i have a sister in law in anthropology... )

[Mela99]

I think I like Derrick better already....

[Toothfairy]

Maybe Ben could consider atheism

[gypsygirl22]

I think I like Derrick better already....

Me too.

[OkToBeTakei]

Why are so many Calvinists named Douglas?

Scottish name? Knox? Connection?

[OkToBeTakei]

"Is there any other country in the world where people change religion, or shop for churches like this?"

Some one argue that this is one of the most beautiful things about the United States.

Maybe.

I just think of religion as a moral compass. Simplistic.

I don't get the fit my beliefs to a religion. I am a lapsed catholic yet I did not shop for a religion that fitted my beliefs. Where would I find one? None of them suit me. I would have to compromise on my me-ness. I'm an ok person though.

I don't think though that centuries of religion can be bettered. If anything what we should learn is that mucking about with it causes nought but strife. No matter how many times you find the next best thing.

Cultural identity also. That though is personal.

[doggie]

well all religions have been mucked with and none resemble the original we don't even know what the original was really. so who knows what if anyone is the way it should be. looking at all the varieties of religion there is no way anyone can even begin to know what version is right. everyone has their own beliefs and if they don't church shop they only follow what feels right.

[DGayle]

The Confederate flag. Nope.

I know that it is wrong to compare something with Nazism and the Holocaust but considering the number of people who died during the slave trade, I think that it is a fair to say that American slavery and the slave trade in general were as evil as Nazism. Glorifying the Confederate flag should be seen as equal to being proud of Nazi symbols

There's a lot of cross-over. Lots of modern confederates still hate Jews and support the Holocaust happening. The comparison is very appropriate. I'll be floored if you can find a single black or Jewish person waving that flag.

[lilith]

Well Perry Coghlan seems to think he was pre-destined to smoke pot and that evil big government is trying to take that god given right away from him, judging by his recent Facebook.

His Facebook is such an odd collection of hardcore fundie anti abortion stuff, pop culture references, hardcore theological discussion (that he links to more than participates in) and extreme libertarian politics. He's free from Dougie but not from a strict Calvinist god, and he's floundering around for a new off the rack identity.

He posted a pic of a few of his girls at last years homeschool expo where he manned the VF counter, and they were all ankle length denim skirts and long brown hair. Now they're WORKING, photographed in shorts and jeans, and cutting and dying their hair without their future husband's approval. And Deanna's husband even lets her get tattooed!

[FloraDoraDolly]

I don't see a whole lot of church shopping around here, but maybe it's the crowd I hang out with - we're the more liberal sort who seem to have a "live and let live" attitude about religion. Alternatively, it could be because I live in a southern city with a lot of "old families" and it would probably be sacrilegious, or at least slightly scandalous, to leave a church where your great-grandparents were baptized and your family's name is surely on a plaque somewhere. :lol:

(My city actually is pretty liberal, given where we're located. Our county is generally the lone blue spot in a sea of red every election.)

I don't have to look any farther than my own extended family.

Dad's side...

Grandpa was Episcopalian and Grandma was raised missionary Baptist and switched to the more moderate American Baptist denomination. Dad and my aunt were baptized in the Episcopal church because Grandpa didn't want the Baptists dunking his kids underwater, but they actually attended Grandma's American Baptist church until they came of age. Now Dad isn't any religion and his sister (now deceased) spent her adult life going to hippie type churches in NYC and San Francisco. The cousins on Grandma's side of the family range from fundie to fundie lite.

Mom's side...

My grandfather was Catholic, my grandmother was Presbyterian. Mom and her sisters were raised Catholic. Mom is now an Episcopalian, her younger sister is Presbyterian, and her older sister got born again on her deathbed. My cousin (the daughter of Mom's older sister) is fundie lite, but she spent a few years in a church that is considered a cult (The Way Ministries) before she switched to the fundie lite church. My sister is married to a Southern Baptist, but she hardly ever went to church and he hasn't gone there much since his father passed away. (The church is half an hour away.) Lately, my nieces have been going to the Episcopal church with Mom and me, although they still consider themselves Baptists.

I should also mention a close family friend who was raised Lutheran, married a Catholic, and now the kids are being raised Catholic; their daughter even goes to Catholic school.

So yeah, church switching is pretty common around here.

As far as Ben Seewald is concerned, I wouldn't put too much stock in any 18-year-old's religious beliefs. It's very common for kids that age to experiment with different religions.

[DarkAnts]

The very liberal Presbyterian church we used to attend explained predestination away in about 2 sentences... their take on it was Old RC taught that if you missed confession and died without blessing, (whatever the correct terms) you would go to hell or purgatory, and predestination was to tell people God knew where they were going even if they missed confession."

This was the first and last time I heard this explanation, but as I said we were a very liberal bunch, we had lesbian families in our membership, so we were not Duggar Approved[tm][/tm]. WHat I find in the Theonomist groups is that there are a lot of Calvinists who believe being the select requires them to put a theocracy in place, to rule over the obviously non-elect and make sure everyone, elect and not, follow old testament law.

Gee, I wonder if you ever attended the pres church I go to now. Its liberal with a large dose of doing service to the community. Its small but they do more for the community then the mega churches in the area.

[Mama Mia]

Is there any other country in the world where people change religion, or shop for churches like this?

It's fascinating. It's also weird to me.

Well it makes a lot of sense if you look at history. Many of the original East Coast European settlers came to the United States because they wanted freedom to practice some version of religion that was considered odd by the majority of their society. These odd religious groups attracted ardent followers, who in pursuing their religion would often form splinter groups and off-shoots and completely new sects. Although people certainly don't always practice it, the theory of freedom of religion is a stated value that is pretty much ingrained from elementary school in the U.S.

While in your area of the world leaders would sometimes wage war in the name of changing/ keeping religious denominations. I would think living in that environment would lead over time to people being vaguely accepting of whatever the prevailing accepted church was, whether they actually believed in what the church believed or not. So I would imagine you get a lot more nominal Catholics or Church of England or whatever, who have had centuries of cultural tradition tied to the church, but not necessarily a lot of personal investment.

So one group has had an ingrained value of experimenting with religious beliefs, and a culture that largely finds religious conviction important. While the other group has a bias towards not stirring the pot when it comes to religion, because to do so in the past could mean literally losing your life based on the whim of the king or queen of the day.

I think when you get to the modern day from those different backgrounds you'll likely get different reactions to loss of faith or conflict with rules/ beliefs in the church. If you live in a culture that finds religion very important, and where there are about a zillion different sorts of churches, you are fairly likely to look for a church that fits your beliefs if you aren't happy with your current church. If you live in a culture where there is an official state religion ( even if there are now many other sorts of worship available ) you are probably more likely to just accept that you no longer are getting anything from participation and just quit going.

That is my totally off the top of my head, late at night, glass of wine influenced take on church hoping in the U.S.. :lol:

[OkToBeTakei]

Well it makes a lot of sense if you look at history. Many of the original East Coast European settlers came to the United States because they wanted freedom to practice some version of religion that was considered odd by the majority of their society. These odd religious groups attracted ardent followers, who in pursuing their religion would often form splinter groups and off-shoots and completely new sects. Although people certainly don't always practice it, the theory of freedom of religion is a stated value that is pretty much ingrained from elementary school in the U.S.

While in your area of the world leaders would sometimes wage war in the name of changing/ keeping religious denominations. I would think living in that environment would lead over time to people being vaguely accepting of whatever the prevailing accepted church was, whether they actually believed in what the church believed or not. So I would imagine you get a lot more nominal Catholics or Church of England or whatever, who have had centuries of cultural tradition tied to the church, but not necessarily a lot of personal investment.

So one group has had an ingrained value of experimenting with religious beliefs, and a culture that largely finds religious conviction important. While the other group has a bias towards not stirring the pot when it comes to religion, because to do so in the past could mean literally losing your life based on the whim of the king or queen of the day.

I think when you get to the modern day from those different backgrounds you'll likely get different reactions to loss of faith or conflict with rules/ beliefs in the church. If you live in a culture that finds religion very important, and where there are about a zillion different sorts of churches, you are fairly likely to look for a church that fits your beliefs if you aren't happy with your current church. If you live in a culture where there is an official state religion ( even if there are now many other sorts of worship available ) you are probably more likely to just accept that you no longer are getting anything from participation and just quit going.

That is my totally off the top of my head, late at night, glass of wine influenced take on church hoping in the U.S.. :lol:

Well it totally makes sense to me :lol:

[PennySycamore]

FloraDoraDolly,

You family makes me recall a good friend of mine from college. Her dad was a Presbyterian minister, but she herself was Episcopalian, sang in the First Baptist choir in Athens as well as the Episcopal choir and worked for several summers at a camp for Jewish girls in Maine. Sue was very ecumenical!

[scc12]

If I'm not mistaken,I think Calvinists are heavily into end times,aren't they? and they believe we are in them.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

To my understanding, most Christians and the Duggars believe in the Rapture, and the tribulation as described in the books/Kirk Cameron movie Left Behind. People disappear, and then the tribulation and all that.

Calvinists believe the rapture comes at the END of the tribulation. I think this is what Steve Anderson thinks too.

Thus, the church will be on earth during the tribulation.

Calvinists are like Puritans, they like to suffer LOL

Another point I would love to hear Ben and Jessa discuss.

jeff.mikels.cc/posts/you-cant-be-both-pre-trib-and-calvinist/

Here is something else I saw about Reformed Baptist churches (such as what Ben's family attends)

theaquilareport.com/top-ten-reasons-not-to-attend-or-join-a-reformed-baptist-church/#.U2MCueBkid0.facebook

[Coconut Flan]

To my understanding, most Christians and the Duggars believe in the Rapture

I'm not sure we can go with most Christians. Evangelicals and fundies seem to believe in the rapture. The churches I have mostly attended did not teach the rapture and I was only exposed to the concept during the short time we attended an evangelical church.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

I'm not sure we can go with most Christians. Evangelicals and fundies seem to believe in the rapture. The churches I have mostly attended did not teach the rapture and I was only exposed to the concept during the short time we attended an evangelical church.

Mind if I ask what churches don't believe in a literal rapture? Like UU?

[jerkit]

Just to clarify a tiny detail: Stevie Anderson is a vehement anti-Calvinist even though he is post-trib rapture.

[scc12]

I suppose those beliefs could backfire on fundies...as in,their offspring might think,"why the heck should we have a ton of kids if the world is going to end soon anyway?!"

[Rebelwife]

Mind if I ask what churches don't believe in a literal rapture? Like UU?

I would say it is not the belief of most mainstream Protestant churches. I grew up Catholic and I am now Episcopalian and the "rapture" as fundies believe it was never taught.

The Nicene Creed says that Jesus "will come again to judge the living and the dead" but that's as far as it goes.

I have never heard revelations treated as anything other than metaphor

[N The Prayer Closet]

Wow. This thread gave me a migraine. Maybe 19-year-old Ben is on a downward path to straight up atheism--THAT would be interesting. I went from Catholic school to mom converting to evangelical Christianity. My dad remains a staunch atheist and rejoiced when I graduated from the same liberal college he did. I dated a guy (no, we didn't court) whose family was crazy Assemblies of God fundie-lite. End of college I met my non-practicing Catholic husband and we tried the church and sacraments thing once we became parents only to completely abandon it and go to a non-denominational mega church by our house. I had issues with some of their beliefs and pastors' sermons so started reading the bible and surfing the internet (Christopher Hitchens is my god now). Wow. Now I'm completely agnostic and hanging by a thread between my friends that are proud atheists. They almost have me convinced to come over to the dark side. Sigh... Next time my mom asks why we don't go to church I'm going to tell her we are Calvinists and going to heaven anyway so what's the point?! ;)

[BeaSnarky]

I would say it is not the belief of most mainstream Protestant churches. I grew up Catholic and I am now Episcopalian and the "rapture" as fundies believe it was never taught.

The Nicene Creed says that Jesus "will come again to judge the living and the dead" but that's as far as it goes.

I have never heard revelations treated as anything other than metaphor

I grew up a United Methodist and I've attended the same church for nearly 40 years...the rapture is never taught.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Its okay if he doesn't believe what Jessa does. He will convert to whatever his headship wants.

I really hope they both convert to mainstream Christianity, have 2 kids in about 5-10 years and put them in school, and all have their own interests that they can pursue without having the whole family tag along.