Ben Seewald's Calvinism

[salex]

Also is this his sister? If so she seems like a real winner. :::eyeroll:: facebook.com/jessica.seewald.1

And... that page seems to be no more!

[twinmama]

I still see the FB page, locked down, but you can see her profile pic and the hideous flag cover photo.

[Loveday]

And... that page seems to be no more!

It's still there, Salex. At least, I'm seeing it. Big Confederate flag flying at the top of the page. :?

[Ting1789]

And... that page seems to be no more!

Nah, it loads up for me. I must say she has no problems with angles that focus more on her funbags than her countenance.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Jessica's heroes are Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee. Great, godly men.

[Ralar]

And... that page seems to be no more!

I am on the page right now. Jes is not listed as one of Awkward Ben's FB friends, but she must be related to him somehow because this is one of her profile pics:

[jerkit]

The Seewald kids are...breathtaking.

[DarkAnts]

I think it was a way to explain why some good people are predestined to go to hell because they are not christian. It is being used by some as an excuse to say that they are the special hand picked people. But, how can they possibly know that they are the predestined ones?

I was taught a different interpretation of it. It was the concept that some people will go to heaven even if they are not christian. These people are predestined to go to heaven through the grace of god.

[Marserin]

Best explanation of Calvinism is from the movie Hardcore, delivered by George C. Scott.

http://youtu.be/YHS591VUfN0

[Marianne]

Can someone explain Calvinism to me? I really don't know anything about it...

I'm reading a very good book about it.

Calvinism come from St Augustin (the most hated philosopher of all the 18 years old french XD ). First there's "Sovereign grace". It means that all mankind is morally corrupt and can't believe/obey to God : only God can help a man to be obedient to Him.

First there's total corruption. It means that all the mankind is morally corrupt, and every man is a slave of sin. Second you have double predestination or unconditional election : it means that the choice of God to take a man to Him is not based on virtue or faith, but only in the mercy of God. Third, you have the irresistible grace : you can't resis against the grace of God. Fourth you have... (not sure if it's fifth or fourth ?) the theory of substitutionary atonement of Jesus. If I understand well, it means that if Jesus have suffer for the sin of a sinner, the sinner must be saved. And fifth, the perseverance of the saints, it means that all the saint (not in a catholic sense of course) will persevere in the faith until the last day. If not, it was because he wasn't chosen.

The economic philosophy of Calvin is very interresting, you can read it in "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism" by max Weber, it's not a difficult book and it's usefull to understand our world.

Like many Protestant religions, everything comes from the Bible (Sola Scriptura), you can not complete it (by Tradition as does the Catholic Church), I believe that the definition of faith is different from the fides et ratio Catholic, it is very austere (not nice church, no music, etc ...), etc ... Calvin was for the baptism of children. What is very striking when you read by Calvin, is that he is very insulting and vulgar.

[PennySycamore]

The Seewald kids are...breathtaking.

Jessica makes me think of one our childhood school bus drivers back in the 60s. Cricket always struck me as a wee bit trashy with her teased high hair, too much makeup and big hoop earrings. She always chewed gum, too. She was a good bus driver and was not mean.

[samurai_sarah]

I'm reading a very good book about it.

Calvinism come from St Augustin (the most hated philosopher of all the 18 years old french XD ). First there's "Sovereign grace". It means that all mankind is morally corrupt and can't believe/obey to God : only God can help a man to be obedient to Him.

First there's total corruption. It means that all the mankind is morally corrupt, and every man is a slave of sin. Second you have double predestination or unconditional election : it means that the choice of God to take a man to Him is not based on virtue or faith, but only in the mercy of God. Third, you have the irresistible grace : you can't resis against the grace of God. Fourth you have... (not sure if it's fifth or fourth ?) the theory of substitutionary atonement of Jesus. If I understand well, it means that if Jesus have suffer for the sin of a sinner, the sinner must be saved. And fifth, the perseverance of the saints, it means that all the saint (not in a catholic sense of course) will persevere in the faith until the last day. If not, it was because he wasn't chosen.

The economic philosophy of Calvin is very interresting, you can read it in "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism" by max Weber, it's not a difficult book and it's usefull to understand our world.

Like many Protestant religions, everything comes from the Bible (Sola Scriptura), you can not complete it (by Tradition as does the Catholic Church), I believe that the definition of faith is different from the fides et ratio Catholic, it is very austere (not nice church, no music, etc ...), etc ... Calvin was for the baptism of children. What is very striking when you read by Calvin, is that he is very insulting and vulgar.

This is also my understanding, but you've put it much more succinctly than I could have. Seconded on the "Protestant Ethic" by Max Weber. He also shines an interesting light on the sociology and culture of other religions. But I would add that he was a man of his times, and his theories make most sense if read with some understanding of his socio-historical circumstances.

To the bolded: Did your teachers hate you, too? Having to read St Augustine, in Old French, should be a felony. :lol: Signed, the woman who had to read poetry in medieval German, never mind philosophy (that would have been outright cruel). ;)

[nolongerIFBx]

Why anyone would want to worship the Calvinist god, I don't understand but even asking them that question will get you labeled as emotional.

I go back and forth on Calvinism v. Arminianism (free will). I think there are indications of both in the Bible, but it does come down for me personally to the above. If God is picking and choosing who goes to heaven, I'm pretty sure He wouldn't choose me. The argument is that God is God and He doesn't have to be fair (allow everyone the same opportunity for heaven).

I've done a little study into this. Calvinists claim that Arminians are prideful. They chose God. Arminians claim Calvinists are prideful. God chose them. Both views have existed even before John Calvin, it is a cycle as to which one is the dominant opinion of the day. Calvinism was dominant in early America (Jonathan Edwards, etc.) and then Arminianism became popular (Billy Sunday). As the charismatic and church growth movements became popular, Calvinism lost favor in America. Arminians felt like Calvinists had made God so far above us that He could not understand us. So we had more emphasis on love and grace and that Jesus would be sitting around the campfire in a tanktop and flip flops if He were right here today. Surprisingly, what was found is that this actually turned young people away from faith because God was no different than them and they considered Arminianism to be self-centered rather than God-centered. They wanted a God who was different from them and the cycle swung around again.

Collin Hansen, who is a journalist with Christianity Today, recalls that in his senior year at Northwestern, a professor told the class that although Calvinists had dominated the First Great Awakening they had dissipated by the Second Great Awakening and that now the only Calvinists left were a few crazies in Grand Rapids. However Hansen was finding that this wasn’t so on campus. He embarked on a two-year research project to discover if it was only at Northwestern or if Calvinism was indeed making a comeback. Calvinism is becoming more commonplace among well-known Christian leaders.Timothy George, dean of Beeson Divinity School, says that people are hungry for a God-centered, transcendence focused understanding of God. Joshua Harris (yep, THAT Josh Harris) echoes “There’s such a hunger for a transcendent God who is not sitting around waiting for us to show up so that the party can get startedâ€.

Which is more than you wanted to know, I'm sure!

[Marianne]

Samuraï Sarah I'm not a big fan of Weber in general (Bourdieu forever ! ), but this book is interresting to understand the link religion/economy.

St Augustin (in modern French, thank you Jesus !) Intentionality of consciousness by Husserl without forgetting the 1000 doctrines of Kant... Yes, my philosophy teacher hated us :D

[singsingsing]

There are plenty of verses which seem to justify Calvinism, but most of that justification falls apart when you read them in context. Also I think it's important to remember that the early church was genuinely being persecuted. So when Paul (or whoever else) writes to a particular church in the first century with lines that seem to support Calvinism, you have to keep in mind that he's speaking to those people at that time. "You don't have to worry about the people all around you who are attacking you, threatening to kill you, destroy your family. You have been chosen by God. These people attacking you won't be rewarded, you will be." It would've been a lot easier to give up and go back to living like their pagan neighbours. Thinking that God had chosen them was reassuring in the face of imminent danger and rejection. I don't see in that a theological argument that God predestines people to hell.

[Rebelwife]

There are plenty of verses which seem to justify Calvinism, but most of that justification falls apart when you read them in context. Also I think it's important to remember that the early church was genuinely being persecuted. So when Paul (or whoever else) writes to a particular church in the first century with lines that seem to support Calvinism, you have to keep in mind that he's speaking to those people at that time. "You don't have to worry about the people all around you who are attacking you, threatening to kill you, destroy your family. You have been chosen by God. These people attacking you won't be rewarded, you will be." It would've been a lot easier to give up and go back to living like their pagan neighbours. Thinking that God had chosen them was reassuring in the face of imminent danger and rejection. I don't see in that a theological argument that God predestines people to hell.

The more I read about this stuff the happier I am to rest on the Anglican "three legged stool" of Scripture, Tradition and Reason. I don't think I could ever stand to be in a faith community that not only didn't encourage questioning and doubt but pretty much outright forbid it.

[samurai_sarah]

Samuraï Sarah I'm not a big fan of Weber in general (Bourdieu forever ! ), but this book is interresting to understand the link religion/economy.

St Augustin (in modern French, thank you Jesus !) Intentionality of consciousness by Husserl without forgetting the 1000 doctrines of Kant... Yes, my philosophy teacher hated us :D

Bourdieu would be rather complicated for our fundies. He presumes a working knowledge of former philosophers. Rather complicated for your average , sheltered, fundy. ;)

[Coconut Flan]

Is there any other country in the world where people change religion, or shop for churches like this?

It's fascinating. It's also weird to me.

It seems so normal living here. I'm thinking about my neighbors. To the right, we have Catholic turned evangelical turned I'm not sure what except alcoholic. To the left we have Methodist turned evangelical turned IFB. Church shopped between these and other smaller changes. Down the street we have mainstream protestant (PCUSA?) turned Mormon turned doesn't go anywhere. Across the street we have founding family of an evangelical church nearby, falling out with crazy preacher brought in a few years ago, church shopped and ended up in a slightly different brand of evangelical. I could go on. Most on our short block have tried different churches as have I. The Muslims down the way have been Muslim for 20 years though. Although the Muslims on the other end of the block stopped practicing almost that long ago.

[PennySycamore]

Coconut Flan, your description of your neighborhood is hilarious!

[Rebelwife]

It seems so normal living here. I'm thinking about my neighbors. To the right, we have Catholic turned evangelical turned I'm not sure what except alcoholic. To the left we have Methodist turned evangelical turned IFB. Church shopped between these and other smaller changes. Down the street we have mainstream protestant (PCUSA?) turned Mormon turned doesn't go anywhere. Across the street we have founding family of an evangelical church nearby, falling out with crazy preacher brought in a few years ago, church shopped and ended up in a slightly different brand of evangelical. I could go on. Most on our short block have tried different churches as have I. The Muslims down the way have been Muslim for 20 years though. Although the Muslims on the other end of the block stopped practicing almost that long ago.

I don't see a whole lot of church shopping around here, but maybe it's the crowd I hang out with - we're the more liberal sort who seem to have a "live and let live" attitude about religion. Alternatively, it could be because I live in a southern city with a lot of "old families" and it would probably be sacrilegious, or at least slightly scandalous, to leave a church where your great-grandparents were baptized and your family's name is surely on a plaque somewhere. :lol:

(My city actually is pretty liberal, given where we're located. Our county is generally the lone blue spot in a sea of red every election.)

[yetanothermeg]

The most extreme example of hyper Calvinism I’ve ever seen was when Douglas Wilson and Douglas Jones patiently explained to anti-abortion activists that only covenant fetuses are worth fighting for. And if Mom wants to have an abortion, it’s not a covenant fetus anyway, so the fight itself is pointless.’â€

opc.org/OS/html/V6/2d.html

Why are so many Calvinists named Douglas?

[HereticHick]

"Is there any other country in the world where people change religion, or shop for churches like this?"

Some one argue that this is one of the most beautiful things about the United States.

[Rachel333]

"Is there any other country in the world where people change religion, or shop for churches like this?"

Some one argue that this is one of the most beautiful things about the United States.

Yes, I actually think this is a really good thing.

[salex]

The very liberal Presbyterian church we used to attend explained predestination away in about 2 sentences... their take on it was Old RC taught that if you missed confession and died without blessing, (whatever the correct terms) you would go to hell or purgatory, and predestination was to tell people God knew where they were going even if they missed confession."

This was the first and last time I heard this explanation, but as I said we were a very liberal bunch, we had lesbian families in our membership, so we were not Duggar Approved[tm][/tm]. WHat I find in the Theonomist groups is that there are a lot of Calvinists who believe being the select requires them to put a theocracy in place, to rule over the obviously non-elect and make sure everyone, elect and not, follow old testament law.

[GenerationCedarchip]

Can someone explain Calvinism to me? I really don't know anything about it...

One of the more coherent explanations I've ever read is a book called Chosen by God by RC Sproul (the father, not the son). Many folks won't agree with the theology, but it's one of the better explanations I've ever read so that I could at least understand what I'm disagreeing with.