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Doug Phillips is a Tool & Vision Forum is Dead - Part 7


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How about "Survivor." I'd vote for that because it is exactly what she is. She has accepted responsibility for any part she played (although I'd say still she was a victim of Doug) and is battling on with her life against some strong odds. I wish her well and want her not just to survive but to succeed.

Or "Cassandra," her other established pseudonym.

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Or "Cassandra," her other established pseudonym.

I think Rapunzel has also been used- in reference to the window incident- but I think it could be appropriate beyond that with the context of Tangled.

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justlurking

To me the bolded implies that it was Hero's parents who brought the relationship to end, didn't they move to another church at about the same time? Why did they take so long to get fed up with Doug climbing into their house so that he could play houses with their daughter?

Slinks out of lurkerdome...

That's the question that I've been asking [myself] during this whole saga. Hero's parents were aware that she was having inappropriate conversations/relations with DPIAT as early as 2009, yet it took them another 3 years before they put their foot down, ended the relationship, and left the guy's church. Seems to me that Hero's parents also share some complicity in the matter. How do you continue attending a church where the pastor has CLEARLY shown you that he is a lech? Why would you continue to listen to ANYTHING this guy says, and why would you continue to listen to his hypocritical teaching/preaching for another 3 years? Why aren't you telling/warning church members about DPIAT's inappropriate behavior? Doug Phillips (Is a Tool) could've been taken down years ago if only 1 person had the courage to report his treachery! It may sound harsh, but it looks to me like Hero's parent's also failed Doug's initiative of "protecting women and children".

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DomWackTroll

And let's not forget that in July of 2012, Hero's mother suddenly-- very suddenly-- seemed to be a rising star in Vision Forum Land, promoted heavily at the Reformation of Food and Family Conference as a "raw food specialist."

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lemonhead

I was thinking about this tonight...what would we say to "Hero" if we could talk to her right here, right now? There is at least a slight chance she's reading here, or getting things passed along to her...so instead of just talking about her in the third person, what would we say to her if she were to appear here, right in front of us?

As the survivor of a patriarchal homeschooling fundamentalist cult, but admittedly about 10 years older than her, I would tell her that she has the agency (ability) to break away from what she has been taught, and to find her own identity outside of the religious fundamentalism she has been brought up with. That she can break away from the rigid roles she has been indoctrinated with, and that she can explore and discover and create her own self. At first, this may mean just working in the world and dating or talking to other people, but eventually she can find her way. I married, got a graduate degree, had two incredible kids, and am now the breadwinner in my family...and I am as happy as I can be...What would you add to this if she were reading here?

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hoipolloi
And let's not forget that in July of 2012, Hero's mother suddenly-- very suddenly-- seemed to be a rising star in Vision Forum Land, promoted heavily at the Reformation of Food and Family Conference as a "raw food specialist."

Coincidence? I think not... :shifty-kitty:

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ladyamylynn
I was thinking about this tonight...what would we say to "Hero" if we could talk to her right here, right now? There is at least a slight chance she's reading here, or getting things passed along to her...so instead of just talking about her in the third person, what would we say to her if she were to appear here, right in front of us?

As the survivor of a patriarchal homeschooling fundamentalist cult, but admittedly about 10 years older than her, I would tell her that she has the agency (ability) to break away from what she has been taught, and to find her own identity outside of the religious fundamentalism she has been brought up with. That she can break away from the rigid roles she has been indoctrinated with, and that she can explore and discover and create her own self. At first, this may mean just working in the world and dating or talking to other people, but eventually she can find her way. I married, got a graduate degree, had two incredible kids, and am now the breadwinner in my family...and I am as happy as I can be...What would you add to this if she were reading here?

Honestly? I would tell her to get tested for STI's. The dude who's cheating on his wife with you probably shouldn't be trusted with these sorts of things.

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Hane

Why does she object to the pseudonym "Hero"? The Hero in "Much Ado About Nothing" was found to be innocent of any wrongdoing!

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Palimpsest
Why does she object to the pseudonym "Hero"? The Hero in "Much Ado About Nothing" was found to be innocent of any wrongdoing!

Perhaps she doesn't feel heroic? I don't know.

As CnD was the one who claimed that she didn't like "Hero," then perhaps he should tell us why and suggest a new psuedonym.

FWIW, I don't care what we call the survivor really, but would request that it is not Cassandra as the repulsive KershawTW Eston clearly misrepresented her actions.

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Palimpsest

Coincidence? I think not... :shifty-kitty:

It stinks of bribery and corruption . . .

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hoipolloi

It stinks of bribery and corruption . . .

Yes, it does - and it also provides some explanation as to why the parents tolerated the situation for as long as they did.

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fundiefan

You know, back in the day of nobility and land contract marriages and monarch's on every corner, it was not uncommon in the slightest for families to 'put their daughters forward' to catch the attention of the ruling monarch so she could become his mistress. Because, the families - including husbands, if they existed - were rewarded greatly for the use of their daughter. Land, titles, gold and other riches all changed hands based on the mistress in favor.

Also, the wives of those monarchs pretended not to know and if they did, they typically chose not to care. They were queen/princess based on their own contract so they and their families got the goods while some noble daughter got the non baby making sex and their own rewards. It was all very hush hush in an open secret way and can be seen in the histories of every European court for hundreds of years.

When the king was done with the woman, he'd find her a complacent husband if she didn't already have one and marry her off. She'd live on a country estate, far from the center of the kingdom where she is neither seen nor heard and her reputation no longer matters. Or better yet he'd marry her off to some foreign, low level nobleman who took her away foreve. If she had the rulers offspring, she and her chosen husband were supported well to stay away and shut up; even if it was common knowledge her child belonged to the ruler.

Unfortunately, this isn't a medeivel kingdom and Doug is not royalty. Unfortunately again, it seems his wife and the girl's family (and of course we know Doug) really think it is.

Nothing good comes from trying to live by the norms of the past.

Edited because I suck at sentence structure.

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dcmhejbl62

Regarding the going through her window incident... my guess (and I'd bet a good chunk of the house on this) is that DP thought (and maybe Hero did too) he was being uber romantic.

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Palimpsest

World Magazine has removed the name of the young woman in question from the article. Rather late and a bit like grabbing the cat by the tail and stuffing it back in the bag after everyone has seen it but better than nothing. It was wrong to out her.

Julie Anne at SSB is rather patting herself on the back about getting the name removed. From the comments prior to the announcement:

Yes, I am aware that she has been outed. I have been in contact with the reporter and now the editor since last week and still talking. I am L.I.V.I.D. My e-mail to the editor strongly urged them to change it, even now. Not one other publication or blog has made her name public. Even the website (not blog) that wants all the juicy gossip on this case has respected her dignity and kept her name private.
spiritualsoundingboard.com/2014/03/29/attempting-to-set-the-doug-phillips-record-straight-part-3-the-timeline/#comments

Oh dear, Julie Anne. If you mean FJ, we are a forum and that "even" wasn't very nice. We always support victims here and have not been critical of you in all of this. On the contrary.

If she doesn't mean us, what website (not blog) am I missing that has all the juicy gossip? :mrgreen:

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nokidsmom
[Slinks out of lurkerdome...

That's the question that I've been asking [myself] during this whole saga. Hero's parents were aware that she was having inappropriate conversations/relations with DPIAT as early as 2009, yet it took them another 3 years before they put their foot down, ended the relationship, and left the guy's church. Seems to me that Hero's parents also share some complicity in the matter. How do you continue attending a church where the pastor has CLEARLY shown you that he is a lech? Why would you continue to listen to ANYTHING this guy says, and why would you continue to listen to his hypocritical teaching/preaching for another 3 years? Why aren't you telling/warning church members about DPIAT's inappropriate behavior? Doug Phillips (Is a Tool) could've been taken down years ago if only 1 person had the courage to report his treachery! It may sound harsh, but it looks to me like Hero's parent's also failed Doug's initiative of "protecting women and children".

This. And actually, her father, as the head of the family is the protector of his daughter in their culture yet he knew his daughter was having this inappropriate relationship with DPIAT. He knew from Dougie's own words that a married man had romantic feelings for his daughter. And this was also their spiritual leader who is supposed to be above reproach and taught some very harsh beliefs about infidelity. At the very, very least, the parents should have left BCA right then and there.

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Palimpsest

It is very odd and looks extremely bad, but I'm reluctant to be too harsh with the parents here. We are talking about a person who seems to be a total narcissist, and also an accomplished user and master manipulator of people. Never underestimate the charm and persuasiveness of a malignant narcissist.

By all reports, the relationship was on and off. Probably after every meeting or confrontation the Tool expressed remorse, promised never to do anything again, and backed off for a while. Then in the "penitent" interim while the parents were lulled into trusting him again, he offered incentives (trips and vacations) or opportunities (raw food expert) to pull the family back and even closer into the fold, increasing their dependence on him and BCA.

These things look like blatant bribery with 20/20 hindsight but they happened over a period of years. I'm sure Doug also threatened the family when he wasn't bribing them.

Wasn't the bedroom window just one incident? I had the impression that the young woman in question had ended the relationship by then and was steering clear of him. Doug was trying to sneak into the house unobserved to change her mind. Or do I have that wrong?

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From the point of view of those in the cult, the parents followed the rules. They set up a meeting and tried to solve this within the church structure. I don't think that this is uncommon among people in cults. They don't want to involve the outside authorities and they end up more deeply embroiled in the cult to the point that people wonder what the heck was wrong with them. The owner of Jem's Gems is a good example. I can't remember the name of the church (Joshua Harris was affiliated with it, I think?) but we discussed a case of the sexual abuse of a minor in which the parents tried to settle things with the leaders and abusers parents before they went to the police.

Doug's climbing into Hero's window quite frankly frightens me. If she didn't invite him then he sounds as if he was going to do something desperate perhaps harmful to her. His actions are not those a sane, middle aged man. Even if a teenager tried to climb into someone's window without that person inviting him, it would worry me. However, Doug had a lot to lose and the fact that he would risk everything on reaching Hero would frighten the hell out of me if I were her family. What was he going to do to her? Would he have raped her? Kidnapped her? Killed her?

I am glad that she is safe but I worry for the Phillip kids and Beall. What is Doug going to do when he finally admits that he has lost everything?

I still think that Doug has other young women-or men-that he abused.

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Palimpsest

I'm with Debrand on the danger quotient of climbing in bedroom windows. Doug's behavior gives me cold chills.

That said: Yes, from the point of view of the cult the parents were following the rules in the personal confrontation.

Sort of.

This brings me back to the strange, ineffectual, and nebulous creature who was Doug's co-Elder at BCA.

Bob Sarratt. Co-Elder. Now Elder with an interim Elder, previously Deacon, Jeff Horn. The guy that issued the "pitiful" statement (per SSB) and pathetically, grossly, totally, inadequate statement (per Palimpsest) on Jan 1, 2014. The guy who girded his loins enough to "rebuke" Doug in November, but hasn't the guts to keep the wolf away from the sheep at BCA by excommunicating Doug's ass and forbidding him back.

Bob Sarratt. The Co-Elder that the parents did not reach out to when wanting to confront Doug. The one that the young woman in question did not approach. The person that Beall and JT did not reach out to when troubled -- instead they asked Bradrick, Doug's certain inferior in their own damn hierarchy.

The guy who was totally out of the loop. Please!

There is no doubt in my mind that the whole culture at BCA was toxic with Doug in charge and that Sarratt was just a "yes man."

I truly question why what remains of BCA want to keep this untrustworthy idiot on as an Elder. Why are these people not taking their children and running for their very lives? Why are they allowing the Nolan's of BCA to scream out in pain, betrayal and anger without support? I can guarantee you that there is more than one Nolan, although he is the loudest.

Speaking directly to the remaining people of BCA - THINK!

You don't need to throw all your "Biblical Values" out with the bathwater. You do need to end the toxic environment that your blind worshipping of Doug has enabled. Oust the inadequate Sarratt. Elect new Elders. Make sure you have an uneven number and make sure that they don't all agree and can respectfully disagree with each other.

Then take a look at that damn covenant and put some modifiers and safeguards in place so that people with genuine complaints can have a fair hearing.

If the remains of BCA can't do this then they are ensorcelled beyond hope.

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justlurking
From the point of view of those in the cult, the parents followed the rules. They set up a meeting and tried to solve this within the church structure. I don't think that this is uncommon among people in cults.

Yes, that may be true BUT the parents (at least the mother) clearly thought that Doug's behavior continued to be inappropriate. As per Julie Anne's post on SSB, Hero's mother informed Beall in 2010 that she caught DPIAT and Hero kissing. Clearly she saw something morally wrong with what they were doing--enough to inform his wife of the affair in what I can only assume was an attempt to see if the wife could put an end to things. Sure, the parents may have been brainwashed into trying to resolve the matter through the church, but it still doesn't explain why they chose to continue sitting under the false preaching/teaching of DPIAT for another 3 years. They clearly thought his behavior was inappropriate and told others about it even though it was something they didn't have to get involved in. How many other parents get involved in the love affairs their adult daughter(s) have with married men--at least to the extent that the parents inform the wife of the affair?

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Arete

With regard to the climbing in the window incident: According to the SSB timeline, that happens in Dec 2012. The relationship between Hero and the Tool does not start unraveling until the Tool was caught that night by Hero's menfolk. He then resigns in Jan/Feb 2013 as an Elder.

I don't see anything more sinister in that climb than Doug Phillips being a tool. We know he is deep into medieval and swashbuckling cosplay. Secretly "visiting the princess in the tower" is right up his narcissistic fantasy alley. Little Napoleon thought that was a romantic gesture, the same way he thinks he is an explorer and archeologist. That evening he was playing a knight.

There is nothing in the SSB synopsis that indicates to me he was about to become violent with Hero because he went through a window. YMMV

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Peas n carrots
With regard to the climbing in the window incident: According to the SSB timeline, that happens in Dec 2012. The relationship between Hero and the Tool does not start unraveling until the Tool was caught that night by Hero's menfolk. He then resigns in Jan/Feb 2013 as an Elder.

I don't see anything more sinister in that climb than Doug Phillips being a tool. We know he is deep into medieval and swashbuckling cosplay. Secretly "visiting the princess in the tower" is right up his narcissistic fantasy alley. Little Napoleon thought that was a romantic gesture, the same way he thinks he is an explorer and archeologist. That evening he was playing a knight.

There is nothing in the SSB synopsis that indicates to me he was about to become violent with Hero because he went through a window. YMMV

ITA. There isn't any evidence indicating Dougie is willing to resort to violence in his background. I firmly believe instead of finding a younger woman and buying a Corvette, Doug's fantasy was to find a younger woman and participate in acting out romantic scenes from fairy tales.

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nokidsmom

Yes, that may be true BUT the parents (at least the mother) clearly thought that Doug's behavior continued to be inappropriate. As per Julie Anne's post on SSB, Hero's mother informed Beall in 2010 that she caught DPIAT and Hero kissing. Clearly she saw something morally wrong with what they were doing--enough to inform his wife of the affair in what I can only assume was an attempt to see if the wife could put an end to things. Sure, the parents may have been brainwashed into trying to resolve the matter through the church, but it still doesn't explain why they chose to continue sitting under the false preaching/teaching of DPIAT for another 3 years. They clearly thought his behavior was inappropriate and told others about it even though it was something they didn't have to get involved in. How many other parents get involved in the love affairs their adult daughter(s) have with married men--at least to the extent that the parents inform the wife of the affair?

Agree also that one one hand they were following the rules as far as trying to resolve the situation through the church but at the same time that very same church had rules regarding purity before marriage, gender roles and behavior between the sexes, and infidelity. DPIAT's behavior was not acceptable by these rules and though the cult thinking and perhaps Dougie's ability to charm/manipulate/scare was probably a factor in keeping the parents involved, it boggles the mind a bit that the parents continued as long as they did. Many people will accept rules and beliefs without question until it adversely affects them. Once it hits the homefront, it becomes a different thing entirely and the questions begin. It seems that the mother did but it wasn't enough to send them running for the exits. It should have been a bigger WTF moment for them that it seems to have been.

The fact that the parents got involved showed that they saw it as their responsibility to do so, adult daughter or not, but still it seems odd that they didn't take additional steps of making absolutely sure that their daughter was protected from their straying spiritual leader.

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Escapefromfundiedom

This brings me back to the strange, ineffectual, and nebulous creature who was Doug's co-Elder at BCA.

Bob Sarratt. Co-Elder.

The guy who was totally out of the loop. Please!

There is no doubt in my mind that the whole culture at BCA was toxic with Doug in charge and that Sarratt was just a "yes man."

:text-yeahthat:

Too often the one or two dominant leaders in the church (in this case Dougie) will ensure that all other elders who are elected/appointed are there to merely rubber stamp the authority and agenda of the figurehead and give the appearance of some kind of plurality...I cannot speak for BCA specifically, but I know in the fundie church I went to it was heavily emphasized that the elders had a special calling or anointing from gawd (said with your best rush limbaugh voice). It's not shocking that it wasn't basically NEVER on the table to remove them. Even to breathe a question mark regarding their fitness for leadership after their election/ascension/whateverthef#!youdliketocallit was almost heresy. In that kind of atmosphere, good luck to the person who wants to spearhead a campaign to get Sarratt removed.

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fuglyexfundy
I was thinking about this tonight...what would we say to "Hero" if we could talk to her right here, right now? There is at least a slight chance she's reading here, or getting things passed along to her...so instead of just talking about her in the third person, what would we say to her if she were to appear here, right in front of us?

As the survivor of a patriarchal homeschooling fundamentalist cult, but admittedly about 10 years older than her, I would tell her that she has the agency (ability) to break away from what she has been taught, and to find her own identity outside of the religious fundamentalism she has been brought up with. That she can break away from the rigid roles she has been indoctrinated with, and that she can explore and discover and create her own self. At first, this may mean just working in the world and dating or talking to other people, but eventually she can find her way. I married, got a graduate degree, had two incredible kids, and am now the breadwinner in my family...and I am as happy as I can be...What would you add to this if she were reading here?

I'd tell her to go to a secular women's clinic and get a thorough exam. Full battery STD tests. If he's cheating with you, then he's cheating on you with others. She should learn about wellness from real medical experts. Get secular therapy if needed.

Regardless of the results, she should accept the consequences of her actions, forgive herself (others are optional), get a real education, & move far away. She should focus on herself and learning to thrive without the patriarchy crap. Nice, real men, exist.

Edited to add one other piece of advice....ditch and reject the "victim" label and/or role. A victim mindset that can result from accepting that label may prevent progress. Experience talking here.

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World Magazine has removed the name of the young woman in question from the article. Rather late and a bit like grabbing the cat by the tail and stuffing it back in the bag after everyone has seen it but better than nothing. It was wrong to out her.

Julie Anne at SSB is rather patting herself on the back about getting the name removed. From the comments prior to the announcement:

spiritualsoundingboard.com/2014/03/29/attempting-to-set-the-doug-phillips-record-straight-part-3-the-timeline/#comments

Oh dear, Julie Anne. If you mean FJ, we are a forum and that "even" wasn't very nice. We always support victims here and have not been critical of you in all of this. On the contrary.

If she doesn't mean us, what website (not blog) am I missing that has all the juicy gossip? :mrgreen:

World Magazine didn't name Hero; it was the Christian Post article that did that. Unless World did a second article I didn't read?

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