Doug Phillips is a Tool & Vision Forum is Dead - Part 7

[westchamps]

A lack of time and energy. I am not an eloquent person, and I find it rather time-consuming to put my thoughts to "paper" in an intelligent way. I think it is true that when one's thoughts go against the majority flow, one receives much more "attention" so to speak. And it is overwhelming to try and answer a lot of posts. And if I don't keep up with answering them, I will likely be accused of not being able to defend my beliefs, etc. Does that make sense? So I tend to leave quick, non-controversial posts.

Also, because of my past, I am very stressed by anything that feels confrontational, even if it is a belief in which I stand firm.

My biggest frustration in being a part of FJ is the way that all fundies are lumped into one homogenized mass, when there are just. so. many. differences among us. If I posted a response to that type of thing on a regular basis, don't you think everyone would generally be annoyed with my efforts to defend fundies?

And......I worry a bit about anonymity. Where I live, the fundie pond is rather small. I have friends who are discussed here, and at least one has posted in defense of him/herself in the past. This forum is not looked upon favorably, as you can imagine. ;-) And some of my friends already know I read here. It wouldn't take much for someone to figure out who I am. It's not necessarily a big problem, but I would rather stay Babycakes.

Yes, I sometimes post insider info. I can see how you find that distasteful. I do try to only post things that I know MANY people already know, and are not secrets or "dainty morsels", lol. Usually in an effort to clear up confusion. I did feel badly about my original mention of Kelly being pregnant again. For some reason I thought it had been revealed here. Anyway, I don't think it was a secret, I just think they probably don't enjoy having their children discussed here.

My husband doesn't like my reading here because he thinks it is time-sucker, and my "fundie gossip mag". (And he know gossip is a temptation for me, one that in real life I work very hard to keep free from.)So I always feel a little badly when I'm on here a lot. He has never asked me to stop reading here, but if he did I would. Although, FJ has made for some very lively conversations between us, since I find out things here that we otherwise would miss.

I found FreeJinger when I googled Geoff Botkin years ago. I lurked for some time and then registered when we made the switch from yuku. I have reasons for staying. 1) A lot of fundies don't know they're called fundies, or what so many people think of them. I like knowing what people who disagree with me are thinking about me and my lifestyle. 2) I don't have to check any blogs, if something good happens, it will be on FJ :-) 3) It keeps me from always having rose -colored glasses when viewing other fundies. 4) I want to know that I can be exposed to polar opposite views, question my own convictions, and still retain them. 5) I just plain enjoy some of the posters here.

I don't meant to derail the thread, just trying to stay ahead of questions that may have come, and explain my POV.

Based upon my "reception" here, I think the answer is yes. :lol:

[Hane]

Still here waving his duck around. *yawn*

[ILoveJellybeans]

Not only that, but Lourdes has had a front row seat to other manipulations that our Harvey Dent has been involved in. Now that her eyes are open...

Mind you, the Epsteins do have real problems of their own.

That's one thing about being "friends" with a narcissist, as I was for a few years, you see so many people who have outlived their usefulness to the narcissist and become targeted, its sort of an example. If you ever begin to think that what they are doing is wrong, and these people are innocent, you don't say anything because you know what they will do to you. Theyre also good at convincing people that you are doing the right thing by targeting the victim, that the abuser is the one who is the true victim and is being victimised by the target of their hate campaign.

[westchamps]

They weren't real Christians and I don't remember these events getting a lot of attention. I'm pretty sure it is Bob Jones history that claims the trail of tears brought Native Americans to Christ so it wasn't a bad thing. I've been reading Lies My Teacher Told Me and history textbooks in general seemed to be pretty biased to make white Europeans look good, but conservative Christian textbooks take this to a whole other level of crazy.

If you can find a Protestant Fundamentalist Christian who defends the Inquisition and the entirety of the Crusades as being Biblically supportable endeavors, please let me know. I learned the unvarnished truth about both growing up, as have my own children.

[westchamps]

Don't you love how every fundie SOTDRT trots out this tired claim? :liar:

It is interesting how fundie homeschoolers put down how public schools "teach to the test" and rely too much on testing, then they themselves rely on it so much to prove their claims...

[westchamps]

The tool is saying Hero offered to settle for more than ten million? Funny I didn't see that in the court documents......

If true, she must be planning to get some seriously expensive therapy, since that's why ya'll have said she's suing for $ instead of bringing criminal charges.

[danvillebelle]

If true, she must be planning to get some seriously expensive "therapy", since that's why ya'll have said she's suing for $ instead of bringing criminal charges.

Did you read any of the responses directed at you concerning this? Do you know anything about the law? SHE can't bring criminal charges. And I don't even want to begin to think why you put therapy in quotes.

ETA: Ah, you went back and took the quotes out. Good for you. But I saw them the first time, they can't be unseen.

[westchamps]

Not that I think that you are coming back, but where exactly did I say I was opposed to "traditional displays of manliness"? What I am against is the straight up oppression of females by men beating their chests and bloviating about the patriarchy. When I say "be a man" I mean own up to your mistake. Same goes for my female counterparts.

And it is really telling that you put your tail between your legs and disappeared when you started to be asked questions you couldn't answer.

So sorry to disappoint you (once again), but I did not disappear. As stated multiple times now, I have a day job. I've been communicating here when I had the time.

[westchamps]

You were the one who quoted, "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit." Going by your own book, it's logical to judge Gothard and DP by the "fruit" we can see.

Edit: All of the other scriptures you have posted support this.

Yep, it is logical to judge them by the "fruit" we can see now. I've got a lot of actual fruit trees, a few of which are sick and possibly may die in the next few years. They were not always this way. At one time, they were healthy and produced good fruit.

[westchamps]

oh Gosh, it's the belief in Jesus Christ as Savior that makes a Christian. Good works makes a good Christian. Swearing won't keep you out of heaven afaik. Why you here again?

Doug Phillips, if he behaved the way he's accused, did not have an affair - he was a creepy letch. The system that his followers are in puts women into positions of extreme vulnerability. Who are you going to run to if your spiritual advisor, employer etc is the one doing the abusing?

Parents. Friends. Other Church Elders. VF Board Members. The Police. The list goes on and on of people she could have gone to for help if indeed this entire relationship was against her will.

[westchamps]

Westchamps, it's obvious you have never been the victim of sexual harassment. I have, and you have no idea how the power dynamic works.

I was harassed at my place of employment over a period of 3 years. Not unlike Lourdes, this happened on an intermittent basis...just when I thought the person harassing me had moved on and I could let my guard down a bit they would do something again.

How do you feel when someone with a lot more power and pull than you do as a lower ranking female grabs your rear in public, and says dirty things to you just out of earshot of fellow employees? Dirty, ashamed, and quite frankly gobsmacked. I'm a woman who was brought up in a very matriarchal household, and I was ashamed that my initial reaction was deer in the headlights instead of punching this guys lights out. I can't imagine what it must of been for her as a woman who grew up in a patriarchal system.

My abuser, like Doug was powerful and of much higher status as well. I felt that if I told anyone, no one would A) believe me and B) I believed I would be thrown under the bus as a troublemaker and lose my job. At the time the abuse started this country was deep in the recession and my husband didn't have a job. I had to prioritize putting food on the table and shelter over our heads over the abuse.

I'm sure you will say "but oh you should have told someone!" or "you had it coming to you for being a working woman." I never asked to be harassed...I only wanted to do my job to my best ability and not have to worry about some old goat trying to fondle me.

Finally, abusers actually seek out women who are in these "no-win" kind of situations for that very reason...the abuser has the upper hand. Why would Doug go after someone who was in a position of being believed in the wider community?

You have mentioned you have a daughter...would you believe your daughter was a hussy if she were a victim of an abuser? Would you think she had it coming to her?

Yes, I will say you should have told someone. I will not say you had it coming to you, for any reason. There is no justification - ever - for sexual advances that are truly non-consensual. And I'd say that applies to both sexes, not just men, although generally only men get held accountable for such actions.

I can see that your situation was a difficult one. However, I don't think this world has gone so crazy that the best and only solution was for you to stay in a situation like that for 3 years, or even 1 year. There had to be other remedies. As far as I'm aware, sexual harassment is against the law. Would not that fact be some protection for you against a "vengeance firing" if you brought a claim of sexual harassment?

[westchamps]

That kind of talk makes me slappy. I suspect she is so deep in denial or so deep in feigning denial that she thinks all this false accusation is God/the Devil testing them. And, yes, even though she was crying in the girl's family living room about all this (please, don't tell anyone) by now, like pharaoh, her heart has been hardened.... I"m sure she's is thinking "and so what if Doug did (some) of those things.. What is a little jism in the face between friends? Should we be made to suffer forever? and she's lying and total tempted him."

But really, the best liars have themselves convinced.

I also have been contemplating the "she was a grown woman" argument. Beyond the grooming, isn't consent one of those things that women raised per Dougie's rules would not really have to give? Isn't he of the "women can't sign contracts without dad or hub agreeing" school? If so, she was socially trained not to ever be the person who decided for herself what was or wasn't supposed to be happening.

I wonder if Beal and Dottie Sandusky can start a little club?

Quit trying to say she was some kind of zombie because she was raised a Fundamentalist Christian. I was. My sisters were. My wife and her siblings were. No Christian adult woman in possession of her brain and even rudimentary knowledge of the Bible is ever going to think it is "ok" or somehow "within the rules" for a Christian man - ANY Christian man - to be sexually harassing her. If she decided for whatever reason (fear, etc.), not to mention it to someone and get help, that is one thing, but to act like she couldn't even decide for herself if it was wrong or right? Please. Get a grip. That is a totally ridiculous caricaturization of even the most extreme and stringent views of "patriarchy" in the Christian community.

[CloakNDagger]

Parents. Friends. Other Church Elders. VF Board Members. The Police. The list goes on and on of people she could have gone to for help if indeed this entire relationship was against her will.

Then you OBVIOUSLY don't know the situation that well. That is insane. Yeah, she should have, and how do you know that she didn't? For a number of reasons almost everyone you have mentioned there that she could or would have talked to has failed her, except now at the last, her friends and family.

[westchamps]

Westchamps, I find your lack of compassion absolutely appalling, though not surprising. Can you imagine, for just one moment that this young woman was humiliated and ashamed? Can you imagine that she had no idea HOW to tell somebody? She was threatened. He told her that if what he did was wrong, it was her fault. Can you imagine the fear she felt knowing she would be blamed and considered a slut for his actions? This started when she was fifteen. What did/will your daughters know about such things at that age? How does a girl raised in this culture tell somebody that the leader of their church has assaulted her? Can you imagine any of this?

I know; you can't. Because men like you cannot see beyond their own narrow and judgmental life view.

I'm just going to say it. I feel so very sorry for girls like your daughters who do not have a man in their lives who would turn this world upside down if a somebody harmed them like this. I feel sorry for them that there is no man in their life who would at least want to tear a man limb from limb for doing what Doug did. You are the kind of man who has to ask "Why didn't she tell anybody?" "Why did she allow this to happen?" "Why did she tempt him?" You are the type of man who find women and girls disposable and only good for the service of men. That is why you even found Doug's teachings appealing in the first place. You can try to minimize what he did all you want; you can try to cast doubt on this woman's story, but it's not going to work here.

Finally, just ponder this. Have you considered that Doug got into the ministry BECAUSE he is a predator? We don't know yet if he has assaulted other women, but predators often put themselves in positions to have easy access to victims.

Just so you know, I don't expect answers to these questions. Consider them rhetorical. Wouldn't want to overwhelm you.

You don't know me at all based upon the things you said above. And you clearly have not read many of my posts here with anything approaching a thoughtful and objective eye.

I haven't minimized what he's done. It disgusts me. He betrayed a lot of people with his utter hypocrisy, most of all his wife and children. At the very least, he hugely defrauded Lourdes, even if their relationship was consensual. I think he has disqualified himself from future pastoral ministry, and if he did in fact do something criminal he should be prosecuted for it. How is that minimizing what he did?

[westchamps]

Then you OBVIOUSLY don't know the situation that well. That is insane. Yeah, she should have, but for a number of reasons almost everyone you have mentioned there that she could or would have talked to has failed her, except now at the last, her friends and family.

Who are precisely the people it makes the most sense for her to have expected help from in the first place. Would they have failed her 5 years before? What made her decide to finally go to them for help?

[CloakNDagger]

Who are precisely the people it makes the most sense for her to have expected help from in the first place. Would they have failed her 5 years before? What made her decide to finally go to them for help?

Some in her family did know about it years back. I've been told that her mother told Beall that they did kiss when Beall asked about it. Her family wasn't happy with her, and yet they felt shamed or something into silence. Even when they finally left the church, people outside of the inner circle didn't really start to realize what was going on until about 4-6 months later.

I know I would have failed her five years ago... if I had limited information and was being compartmentalized. Nolan knew something was wrong back then, but even he didn't know what to do about it, and when he tried, was told that he was going to ruin the reputation of a fine Christian girl.

[westchamps]

You do realize that an estimated 60%+ of rapes are never reported? And this is in the nation at large, in which women are not blamed for everything bad that happens, or shamed to nearly the same degree. It's still bad, but this culture compounds it. So adding to the usual 60% statistic that (1) it was clerical abuse, (2) she was brought up to believe that men always have authority over women, (3) DP was wealthy, she and her family were immigrants and not wealthy, (4) DP had a lot of influence and nobody would believe her word over his word, and I could go on... I am not surprised by the situation at all, and you shouldn't be either. Willpower, seriously. Kids aren't brought up to have any willpower in this culture. Nor is asking for help permissible, since everything has to appear fine and dandy in case The World picks up on the fact we're not perfect!

Calvin is turning in his grave! Heretic! :-P

If I recall correctly, you attended BCA or were somehow or other connected to Doug and VF? Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I remembered reading that way back in this thread somewhere. If that is true, can you tell me how many times you were taught, from the pulpit, by Doug or another church elder, that it is your duty as a Christian woman to submit to unwanted sexual advances/harassment from any man? How many times were you told that by other wives in the church? I'm guessing the answer is zero on both counts.

And 21 is not a kid.

Lastly, maybe you didn't see where I posted it before, but I am not a Calvinist. Never have been.

[MamaJunebug]

No Christian adult woman in possession of her brain and even rudimentary knowledge of the Bible is ever going to think it is "ok" or somehow "within the rules" for a Christian man - ANY Christian man - to be sexually harassing her. If she decided for whatever reason (fear, etc.), not to mention it to someone and get help, that is one thing, but to act like she couldn't even decide for herself if it was wrong or right? Please. Get a grip. That is a totally ridiculous caricaturization of even the most extreme and stringent views of "patriarchy" in the Christian community.

Was she "in her right mind?" Did she have a rudimentary understanding of the bible or just of the parts Doug and the other preachers hammered on, every week? How often did she hear about the saving grace of jesus? How often was His name mentioned as the subject of a sentence ("He has paid for all your sins") compared to the times she heard exhortations to be like Him or to follow His [sic] rules?

FLDS women have a rudimentary understanding of scripture, including the commandment against adultery, and yet they're persuaded to underage marriages, plural marriages in which they have no say, even to be traded from husband to husband against all natural and learned knowledge that they are NOT chattel.

Have your children, wife and siblings never been targeted for abuse (of any kind) from a revered or respected leader? Then you've been very blessed indeed, and I pray God continues to not test you by such trials.

I believe you posted that the Doug Phillips you knew was a godly, humble, upright man. You also posted that you hadn't been in touch with him for several years. I'm not sure whether or not you have claim to know any of the Torres family. Have you personally known any Christian – male or female – who underwent something akin to what Ms. Torres Manteufel is alleging? If not, then your statement above is way more opinion that it ever could be considered fact.

[Peas n carrots]

Yes, I will say you should have told someone. I will not say you had it coming to you, for any reason. There is no justification - ever - for sexual advances that are truly non-consensual. And I'd say that applies to both sexes, not just men, although generally only men get held accountable for such actions.

I can see that your situation was a difficult one. However, I don't think this world has gone so crazy that the best and only solution was for you to stay in a situation like that for 3 years, or even 1 year. There had to be other remedies. As far as I'm aware, sexual harassment is against the law. Would not that fact be some protection for you against a "vengeance firing" if you brought a claim of sexual harassment?

I didn't want to be in that situation, but when your leaders/bosses are male, are in cahoots, and you are in a situation where you cannot leave your job it's not so easy to say "oh I must go tell someone." You have to either suck it up until there is a way to escape the situation either through realizing your own agency and/or by having a support system in place.

I don't think you are necessarily and a-hole and I'm not going to tell you where to go. I'm saying this knowing you have daughters, and I'm giving the benefit of the doubt that as a father you would do anything to protect them. Lourdes was someone's daughter, and to understand why she came out several years later you have to understand the nuances of the situation. It is never so black and white as something bad happened/go tell someone. You can bet that Lourdes, myself and other people who have experienced sexual harassment were targeted because there was some gray.

I admit, I probably would have had a less sympathetic view of Lourdes if I hadn't experienced what I did myself. I just encourage you to find empathy for a young woman whose life was turned upside down by your friend. $10M (which I guarantee she won't get ...the attorney is setting the amount high so they can negotiate on a settlement) won't ever get back the years she lost to Doug, and it's probably the only way she could ever hurt him by hurting him in the pocketbook.

[MamaJunebug]

"21 is not a kid," and yet, at whatever age Lourdes was when the "return of the daughters" video was made, she was content as an adult woman to go to work for somebody for free to fulfill her own dad's vision of how he (Torres pere) should be, with no vision of her own, of what that should be. No, numbers don't tell everything about an age. Especially in a situation where women are routinely undereducated, and encouraged to submit to the wills of others, without the vaguest thought of what their own wills and desires and beliefs are.

[westchamps]

Some in her family did know about it years back. I've been told that her mother told Beall that they did kiss when Beall asked about it. Her family wasn't happy with her, and yet they felt shamed or something into silence. Even when they finally left the church, people outside of the inner circle didn't really start to realize what was going on until about 4-6 months later.

I know I would have failed her five years ago... if I had limited information and was being compartmentalized. Nolan knew something was wrong back then, but even he didn't know what to do about it, and when he tried, was told that he was going to ruin the reputation of a fine Christian girl.

This blows my mind. What is wrong with people. The fact that they knew "years back" makes me question even more what was in her legal filing, though. Would parents be shamed into silence about a secret "affair" their adult daughter was having with a public figure? Yes, maybe. Would they be shamed into silence about habitual and continuing outright sexual abuse that was being perpetrated on their daughter? Hard to believe anyone could be so scared and/or callous as to let something like that continue to happen, REGARDLESS OF THE CONSEQUENCES.

[westchamps]

To my bolded...yes. Since um, the 9th century in some cases. I was going to come back and ask Westchamps which canon and translation was the "right" one, but you beat me to it. It will be interesting to see his answer.

Well then, I guess the Bible is no good for anything other than toilet paper, since Christians can't possibly use it as a guidebook for Christian living and instruction unless we have read the original transcripts in the original languages. :roll:

[westchamps]

Quoting this for Westchamps because it is a perfect example of why you can't just go on what the English translation says. For example there are NINE Hebrew words for the time of childhood all meaning different periods of childhood. Translating it to just "child" misses the context of the original writings and gives an inaccurate impression of what is being said.

Please enlighten us on how the Scriptures about child discipline really are incredibly more complicated and nuanced than they seem to be.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Parents. Friends. Other Church Elders. VF Board Members. The Police. The list goes on and on of people she could have gone to for help if indeed this entire relationship was against her will.

Her parents might not have believed her. If you read some of the stories on Recovering Grace about the victims of Bill Gothard, one of them did tell her parents, but because they worshipped Gothard as much as the Torres family worshipped Doug, they did not believe their daughter and blamed her for tempting him.

I had told my parents about Bill’s abuse earlier, but they told me I had “asked†for it and that I “tempted†Bill. I had told no one else about what had happened with Bill until I talked with this other family member in 2006, because even my parents didn’t believe me.

From Charlotte's story: http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/02/ ... tes-stori/

There are countless other parents who would trust a charismatic but abusive church elder over their own child.

Her friends might not have believed her either. Everyone she knew at the time worshipped Doug, and would not believe that he would do that to someone. There is a lot of victim blaming in fundie culture, maybe she felt that if she told people, they would blame her for tempting him, for moving out from under her father's authority and moving in with Doug to work as a nanny and putting herself in that situation. Maybe she felt that it was her fault at first, that she deserved it, and that she was dirty and impure, and didn't want any of her friends to judge her for it and for any men to know or they would never want to marry her.

The VF board members and church elders all answer to Doug anyway. They know him, they are his most devoted and loyal followers, and who would they trust? Doug, who is the ultimate example of a holy man, or Lourdes, who they don't know that well, who is an unmarried woman (so basically a child in their eyes).

Maybe she was afraid to call the police. Fundies are taught that they shouldn't trust the government or secular authorities, and that all "sins" should be worked out by the church.

Doug told her that if what happened was wrong, then it is all her fault. He probably had her so low that she felt that nobody cares, that nobody will believe her, that if everyone found out they would call her a whore. That she would be shunned by the community, kicked out of her parents home, lose all her friends and family and be alone forever. That God would punish her for ruining the reputation of his most favoured creation. :ew: She knows that he is powerful and stronger than her, if he is that horrible to her when she doesn't tell anyone, he could do worse to her if she did try and tell. Maybe she was convinced that it would be better to just suffer through it, than try and tell and lose everything.

Don't blame a victim of abuse for not telling anyone straight away, it isn't easy. As much as you say that it would be easy to just tell someone, in reality, it isn't.

[danvillebelle]

Well then, I guess the Bible is no good for anything other than toilet paper, since Christians can't possibly use it as a guidebook for Christian living and instruction unless we have read the original transcripts in the original languages. :roll:

I am a Christian. I read the Bible daily. Would you care to answer the question, or just keep rolling your eyes and tossing out silly one liners? I am interested in how you personally deal with what we pointed out, since you keep saying over and over that you believe it is the inerrant Word of God. Which translation or version do you believe to be the right or most inerrant one? Why?