Doug Phillips is a Tool & Vision Forum is Dead - Part 7

[thoughtful]

Wow...a little hand slappy aren't they?

Grrrr . . . I can't get comments under that article to load. [/vent over]

[Maxwell]

A thought or two. Please forgive my prolixity.

So this little man, Westchamps, was 'looking for information' about Doug. He found us, (poor chap) and was appalled at the 'straight-up lies masquerading as truth' among other things, and the 'coarse' language.

So he sallied forth to rebuke our lying, tame our unruly tongues (oh for the heady days of the scold's bridle and the ducking stool), chasten our arrogance and counter our unbelief. How positively Arthurian of him: the knight in shining armour battling bravely against the twin dragons of evil and ignorance. A pretty picture indeed.

Somethin' tells me you ain't from around here... bet you could swear real perty like! :D

[formergothardite]

That's debatable: http://parentingfreedom.com/discipline/ (it's a Christian site)

Quoting this for Westchamps because it is a perfect example of why you can't just go on what the English translation says. For example there are NINE Hebrew words for the time of childhood all meaning different periods of childhood. Translating it to just "child" misses the context of the original writings and gives an inaccurate impression of what is being said.

[thekate]

Grrrr . . . I can't get comments under that article to load. [/vent over]

Lynne Little

Interesting. I read the 30 or so page lawsuit in its entirety. There was no request for monetary damages contained therein. Ms. Torres-Mateufel asked for a trial by jury. Seems to me Mr Phillips is trying to muddy the waters and possibly poison a potential jury pool. Shame on you Doug Phillips. By their fruits ye shall know them...and you are looking rotten all the way to the core.

Reply · Like · 4 · Follow Post · 13 hours ago

Regina AndGregory

The court document box is checked for "over 1,000,000" it is near the top.

Reply · Like · 2 · 11 hours ago

Lynne Little

Regina AndGregory: My bad. The last paragraphy of the filing asks for monetary award to be awarded by jury. It is my hope that Mr Phillips is never sgain placed in a position of trust or leads another religious organization. Time for Doug to be a foot soldier for God out of the public sphere...or whatever.

There are a few others, all anti-DP.

[thoughtful]

There are a few others, all anti-DP.

Thanks, thekate! I really was just venting, not hinting (not that Westchamps would believe that! :lol: ), but it is nice to see some of them.

Something odd is going on with my online life -- I can't get to many sites at all, others are coming up just fine, others are slow but loading. Ah, the mysteries of the Intertubez.

[thekate]

Thanks, thekate! I really was just venting, not hinting (not that Westchamps would believe that! :lol: ), but it is nice to see some of them.

Something odd is going on with my online life -- I can't get to many sites at all, others are coming up just fine, others are slow but loading. Ah, the mysteries of the Intertubez.

Well, they only show up half the time for me, so I figured there'd be others with the same problem.

[nokidsmom]

[i wonder if Beal and Dottie Sandusky can start a little club?

In reading about Beall, the very first thing I thought was of was Mrs. Sandusky.

[Artemis]

Somethin' tells me you ain't from around here... bet you could swear real perty like! :D

I'm fairly old-fashioned English, and you're quite right, I could ;) Vulgarly, if required.

I decided that if elaborate intellectualism was what our friend wanted, elaborate intellectualism was what he'd get.

My personal opinion might be that he's a mealy-mouthed mewling quim, a white-livered, caper-witted, jaw-me-dead windsucker, a Friday-faced farradiddle merchant, a puny, pustulent, pusillanimous puttock and a fawning flap-mouthed foot-licker, but I'm too polite to say so.

[snarkyjan]

I'm fairly old-fashioned English, and you're quite right, I could ;) Vulgarly, if required.

I decided that if elaborate intellectualism was what our friend wanted, elaborate intellectualism was what he'd get.

My personal opinion might be that he's a mealy-mouthed mewling quim, a white-livered, caper-witted, jaw-me-dead windsucker, a Friday-faced farradiddle merchant, a puny, pustulent, pusillanimous puttock and a fawning flap-mouthed foot-licker, but I'm too polite to say so.

I'm in awe at yiur command of fluent Elizabethan.

[Artemis]

I am really angry for this child - for she was only a child when this began - and all other children who are used and abused under the 'umbrella of protection' of the patriarchy.

And even angrier that any man with daughters cannot envisage this happening to his own and immediately want to defend them against the possibility of this happening.

There is so much wrong with what happened to this girl that quantifying it will take a court case, remedying it will take a lifetime, and preventing it from happening to others will require a culture change that this Westchamps man who acts as an apologist for the abuser is completely unable to comprehend.

And that's why his daughters, and other daughters, will continue to be at risk of abuse - because the patriarchs of this persuasion are purblind, pig-ignorant, perverse and power-hungry.

[Anise]

You're making the assumption that they were rotten before they ever got into ministry. I never had a personal relationship with Bill Gothard, never even met him, so I can't speak for him, but as regards Doug, as I have made clear, I do not believe that he was rotten before he ever got into ministry.

And since you don't like the first scripture I referenced, here are a few others that say pretty much the same thing:

Luke 6:45

"The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart."

Matthew 15:18

"But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man."

Proverbs 4:23

"Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it."

So you are willing to believe that a good-hearted person can suddenly turn bad rather than acknowledge that it is possible that your judgment of a person was wrong. I wonder what you think could possibly have triggered such a dramatic inner transformation that left no public change.

What do you mean by "since you don't like the first scripture I referenced"? As if it were a case of like or dislike! I have no clue where you are getting the meaning you are reading into these verses. How can you read and quote these and then claim that Doug Phillips was a good man who suddenly changed and did horrific things?

How dare you suggest that some members here are evil-hearted for using strong words, then claim that a man who ejaculated on a woman's face while she was crying and begging him to stop was good-hearted while you knew him.

Personally, I find most English swearing limited because they tend to refer to body parts or bodily functions- in which I see no shame. To call Doug Phillips a fucker is to state an obvious truth rather than an insult. I have finally thought of a word for him: demon-spawn.

[stonefruit]

In re: the demand for $10 million - I don't practice in Texas, but I understand this to be an attempt on the part of Ms. Torres-Manteufel's attorney not to undervalue the case. If, say, they checked the box for "less than $100,000," come settlement time, DP's attorney could refuse to offer anything more than that, and point to the initial complaint for support.

And, in the spirit of the holiday I'm observing, all my best wishes to the new couple on their road to liberation!

[RachelB]

Westchamps, it's obvious you have never been the victim of sexual harassment. I have, and you have no idea how the power dynamic works.

I was harassed at my place of employment over a period of 3 years. Not unlike Lourdes, this happened on an intermittent basis...just when I thought the person harassing me had moved on and I could let my guard down a bit they would do something again.

How do you feel when someone with a lot more power and pull than you do as a lower ranking female grabs your rear in public, and says dirty things to you just out of earshot of fellow employees? Dirty, ashamed, and quite frankly gobsmacked. I'm a woman who was brought up in a very matriarchal household, and I was ashamed that my initial reaction was deer in the headlights instead of punching this guys lights out. I can't imagine what it must of been for her as a woman who grew up in a patriarchal system.

My abuser, like Doug was powerful and of much higher status as well. I felt that if I told anyone, no one would A) believe me and B) I believed I would be thrown under the bus as a troublemaker and lose my job. At the time the abuse started this country was deep in the recession and my husband didn't have a job. I had to prioritize putting food on the table and shelter over our heads over the abuse.

I'm sure you will say "but oh you should have told someone!" or "you had it coming to you for being a working woman." I never asked to be harassed...I only wanted to do my job to my best ability and not have to worry about some old goat trying to fondle me.

Finally, abusers actually seek out women who are in these "no-win" kind of situations for that very reason...the abuser has the upper hand. Why would Doug go after someone who was in a position of being believed in the wider community?

You have mentioned you have a daughter...would you believe your daughter was a hussy if she were a victim of an abuser? Would you think she had it coming to her?

Peas n carrots, I'm sorry that happened to you. And it's very astute to point out that someone who doesn't want to get caught is going to choose a person to abuse who has minimal support. The priest who preyed on Deaf kids was relying on the fact that the kids he molested had fewer people whom they could communicate with nuance than their hearing peers did. The priest who molested my ex banked on the fact that my ex's family was very loyally Catholic. (It was a "good" gamble on the priest's part; my ex's parents believed and supported the institutional church over their own child. *spits*)

[RachelB]

I'm fairly old-fashioned English, and you're quite right, I could ;) Vulgarly, if required.

I decided that if elaborate intellectualism was what our friend wanted, elaborate intellectualism was what he'd get.

My personal opinion might be that he's a mealy-mouthed mewling quim, a white-livered, caper-witted, jaw-me-dead windsucker, a Friday-faced farradiddle merchant, a puny, pustulent, pusillanimous puttock and a fawning flap-mouthed foot-licker, but I'm too polite to say so.

Oh, I don't know. I think that quims are warm and welcoming, and they have depth. The rest of it I'd second.

[J'ean Skirt]

I'd like to punch Doug Phillips in the face too. But we're talking about an adult woman here, not a child. If everything she described in her legal complaint did in fact happen the way she describes it....she had so little willpower that she let it go on for 5 years or thereabouts - completely against her will - without telling anyone or asking anyone for help? This was not an unprotected girl.

What the ever loving Fuck?

The entire premise if patriarchy is that girls CANNOT be left unprotected. That men are predators. That girls MUST be sheltered. This is WHAT PATRIARCHY TEACHES.

Patriarchy prevents girls and women from having agency. It explicitly tells them THEY MUST SUBMIT TO MEN IN LEADERSHIP.

Doug is a predator, and Doug is a predator that set up a system whereby he was given access to girls and women (and possibly boys) that are told they MUST submit to him.

That's even before we get to the teaching that girls and women are responsible for men "stumbling."

Everything about what Doug teaches set up just this situation and left it such that whatever a woman does Doug's actions are her fault.

This Is Patriarchy.

Anyone who understands patriarchy cannot expect a girl, raised her whole life to be sheltered by fathers and then husbands, to stand up to a powerful, respected, male leader, and tell people that he assaulted her. Everything she was taught tells her that the assault is her fault. That she, somehow, failed.

:pull-hair: :pull-hair: :pull-hair:

So, westchamps, you can just Fuck Right Off with your "but she was an adult." So was Doug. Why are you not holding HIM accountable for his actions? Why aren't you expecting him to not sexually assault a woman living in his home? Why are you not expecting him to repent? Why is it all about her?

Fuck. You. And. Fuck. Patriarchy.

[Artemis]

True, they are. I became a little carried away by my annoyance, and was sort of channelling Loki there for a bit. . . . ok, a turgidly tumescent tonker, then, or a blethering bull's pizzle. Then we can see it's all out there and on the surface . . .

And I agree with Bisky.

[nausicaa]

Per the video-- "Beall" is pronounced "Belle"?

[Elinor]

Per the video-- "Beall" is pronounced "Belle"?

Yes, it is. I think it is a family surname. Her name is actually Elizabeth Beall.

[salex]

Per the video-- "Beall" is pronounced "Belle"?

I still prefer the previous poster who was going with Baal....

I'm going with Dough and Baal for a while at least.

[SamuraiKatz]

Per the video-- "Beall" is pronounced "Belle"?

In the spirit of Margaret Atwood my default pronunciation is BE ALL

[Evil Feminist]

In the spirit of Margaret Atwood my default pronunciation is BE ALL

And here I was going with "Beel" like peel.. But I like Baal too! :lol:

[thoughtful]

http://www.examiner.com/article/duggar- ... -dissected

:roll:

[Talitha Cumi]

Westchamps, I find your lack of compassion absolutely appalling, though not surprising. Can you imagine, for just one moment that this young woman was humiliated and ashamed? Can you imagine that she had no idea HOW to tell somebody? She was threatened. He told her that if what he did was wrong, it was her fault. Can you imagine the fear she felt knowing she would be blamed and considered a slut for his actions? This started when she was fifteen. What did/will your daughters know about such things at that age? How does a girl raised in this culture tell somebody that the leader of their church has assaulted her? Can you imagine any of this?

Used-up chewing gum. A cup that everyone has spit in. A rose with no petals. Once he touched her, she became an impure woman according to fundamentalist Christian standards. Here's what would happen if she told:

She would be accused of lying.

She would be accused of trying to bring down a man of God.

She would be accused of rebellion against her family, her church, and God.

She would lose all her friends, with no opportunity to find new ones, as her world was so small.

Her marriage prospects would be ruined. Because she was trained to believe that her entire worth lay in marriage and childbearing, this would mean she was a failure as a woman.

Her family would be shamed and ostracized.

Her brother's future would be ruined. Who would marry into a family that produced such a rebellious, ungodly daughter?

Even women in "the world" are socialized to speak less than men, to take up less space, to believe that what men want is more important than what they want. This is basic Women's Studies 101. How much more do women in fundamentalism believe that? It's what they're explicitly taught from birth. How is a woman raised this way expected to rise above this level of pressure?

Westchamps won't give this any credence, because FEMINISMZ. But if he truly wants to understand, that's where he'll need to look.

[DomWackTroll]

Yes, it is. I think it is a family surname. Her name is actually Elizabeth Beall.

This is what I don't get: Was she always called "Beall," or did Doug decide it was going to be her first name after they met/married? Because if it was her family's surname, I can't imagine them calling her that when they were all using it as their own last name. And how would she be registered/addressed at school or other public places-- as "Beall Beall?"

I know a lot of WASPs use surnames as first names, but they don't usually choose the one they're currently using. They'll choose one from the matriarchal line or whatever. Am I even making sense? :)

[danvillebelle]

I think it's a family surname as in surname used as a middle name. Her maiden name was not Beall. My younger son has my mother's maiden name as his middle name...that kind of thing.

ETA: there is a well-known, well-off family in TX that started a chain of stores called Bealls. I have often wondered if she was a part of that family. Doug has said in the past she grew up wealthy.