Doug Phillips is a Tool & Vision Forum is Dead - Part 7

[westchamps]

Nothing you have said thus far has impressed me with any great difference.

On the other hand, it wouldn't be the first time that Jesus went beyond the examples in the Old Testament.

To me, that verse does not appear to be discussing strong language, but rather evil people speaking the appearance of good. More apt in Doug Phillips's case perhaps?

You do not need to keep up this conversation. I can see you are quite stretched thin. I do however have one thing I particularly want to say:

How do you suppose that people like Bill Gothard or Doug Phillips became ministry leaders? They didn't swear, they said the right sort of thing and quoted from the Bible, they wore the right sort of suits, and they led their employees or fellow elders in prayer with the right sort of resonate tenor that made people feel warm and holy inside. They had the image of a happy family- a submissive wife at home and enough children- or appeared to exemplify Christian celibacy. Meanwhile, one sexually molested the young women working in his ministry and the other forced himself on the kindhearted woman who helped his wife for nothing in return. When confronted with the reality of their heroes, followers often deny it all, claiming these facts are malicious lies, or they say that this leader must have changed since they knew him or they claim that they were suspicious all along. They cannot face that they were deceived by the mere appearance of goodness. But after all, didn't Jesus himself say that wolves appear among the flock in sheep's clothing?

You're making the assumption that they were rotten before they ever got into ministry. I never had a personal relationship with Bill Gothard, never even met him, so I can't speak for him, but as regards Doug, as I have made clear, I do not believe that he was rotten before he ever got into ministry.

And since you don't like the first scripture I referenced, here are a few others that say pretty much the same thing:

Luke 6:45

"The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart."

Matthew 15:18

"But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man."

Proverbs 4:23

"Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it."

[mypsychoticself]

You're making the assumption that they were rotten before they ever got into ministry. I never had a personal relationship with Bill Gothard, never even met him, so I can't speak for him, but as regards Doug, as I have made clear, I do not believe that he was rotten before he ever got into ministry.

You were the one who quoted, "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit." Going by your own book, it's logical to judge Gothard and DP by the "fruit" we can see.

Edit: All of the other scriptures you have posted support this.

[westchamps]

Because the Bible can be interpreted to mean many, many things. According to the way some of my great-grandparents were raised the Bible said that blacks and whites couldn't mix. According to the way ancestors way before them were raised the Bible said that slavery was great and, hey, they got all those verses about slaves submitting and if you can't believe that the Bible means what it says about slaves then are you really a Christian? According to the way I was raised anyone who wasn't an IFB was wrong. If you are just going on the English translation of the Bible without looking at the original words and the original context and the people who put the Bible together then you aren't really getting a clear picture of what it means.

Who is more likely to be a Christian, Doug who would masturbate on the face of someone who was telling him to stop and wasn't even his wife, but at least on the outside he looked like he stuck to certain Bible rules or a guy who believes in evolution, isn't a Biblical literalists, but spends all his spare time and money helping the poor and needy?

Regardless of whether the recent legal filing is truthful in every detail, just the fact that Doug had an intimate relationship (of any kind, even if it had just been emotional) with a woman not his wife, clearly shows he was not acting like a Christian. It doesn't mean he wasn't, nor does it mean he never was a Christian. Only one perfect man in the history of the world and he's sitting at the right hand of God. Lots of others have stumbled during their lives. Does it mean they weren't a Christian when they stumbled? Does it mean they were never a Christian at all?

And doing good works alone does not make someone a Christian.

[westchamps]

There, fixed that for you.

And that's why some of them have been stomping their feet on the ground saying why haven't you answered me yet? Got it.

[westchamps]

I was raised fundamental, Biblical literalist Christian with Bill Gothard thrown in for funsies. Actually, reading your posts you are boxed in by them. You seem to struggle with the idea that other people don't interpret the Bible like you do and you want to cast them as not being as "Christian" as you are. It is a pride issue, as I said before. The idea that you are a better Christian than a person who cusses, who, for all you know might be spending their days helping those who need help is pretty prideful idea. Once I got over the idea that I had to judge people based on outward looks and a strict set of rules I found that many of the people I judged not being as Christian as I was were actually MORE Christian than I was. They might have cussed, drank, and had tattoos but they were doing more to make this world a better place then little non-cussing, non-drinking, no-tattoos me who was raised to judge people on a set of rules.

Do we need to have a Masters of Divinity to be able to understand what the Bible means when it talks about "filthy" speech not coming out of our mouths? Because you imply that they are a man-made set of rules doesn't make it true. If you don't agree with what the Bible says, fine, I've got no problem with that, believe what you want. But just say that, don't make out like some very clear Scriptures really are in fact not clear at all.

And good works alone do not make someone a Christian. I have known some non-Christians who acted more like Christians than some of the Christians I have known also, but good works alone do not make someone a Christian.

[westchamps]

quoting myself... bad form, I know. But wanted to give an update.

Last night, Westie first reply was at 10:29PM and he stood at 74 posts. His last reply was at 3:49AM and he was at 109. That's 35 posts in 5hrs 20min. Posting rate: 6.56 posts/hr or 9.14 min/post.

I'm guessing he works 2nd shift.

***We now return you to your regularly scheduled flame war, already in progress.***

lol, nope. I generally try not to spend much time on here during normal work hours. Although since I am self-employed, I have the prerogative to do so if I wish.

And I didn't even know there was a "Chatter" area here or how many posts it took to access it. I've made so many posts in a short time because I'm simply trying to respond to people who have responded to me. That explanation good enough for you?

[tropaka]

oh Gosh, it's the belief in Jesus Christ as Savior that makes a Christian. Good works makes a good Christian. Swearing won't keep you out of heaven afaik. Why you here again?

Doug Phillips, if he behaved the way he's accused, did not have an affair - he was a creepy letch. The system that his followers are in puts women into positions of extreme vulnerability. Who are you going to run to if your spiritual advisor, employer etc is the one doing the abusing?

[westchamps]

Westie, why are you here?

Are you here to defend Doug? Because if you are then I would suggest that that would be a little pointless. Disregarding his rather iffy theology for a moment, Doug has betrayed a hell of a lot of people. He has, by his own admission, broken his marriage vows and has treated a young, vulnerable women in a dreadful manner. There simply is no defence for that.

So why are you here?

Not here to defend that, and I've already addressed why I'm here. If you didn't see it, read back through the thread to find it. If you saw it and didn't believe it, that's on you, not me.

[thekate]

The response from a visibly aged tool and Beall. If shared already, apologies.

http://www.kens5.com/news/KENS-5-Exclus ... 56621.html

The Seppis are paying attention to this. Regina and Greg posted a comment.

[Peas n carrots]

Westchamps, it's obvious you have never been the victim of sexual harassment. I have, and you have no idea how the power dynamic works.

I was harassed at my place of employment over a period of 3 years. Not unlike Lourdes, this happened on an intermittent basis...just when I thought the person harassing me had moved on and I could let my guard down a bit they would do something again.

How do you feel when someone with a lot more power and pull than you do as a lower ranking female grabs your rear in public, and says dirty things to you just out of earshot of fellow employees? Dirty, ashamed, and quite frankly gobsmacked. I'm a woman who was brought up in a very matriarchal household, and I was ashamed that my initial reaction was deer in the headlights instead of punching this guys lights out. I can't imagine what it must of been for her as a woman who grew up in a patriarchal system.

My abuser, like Doug was powerful and of much higher status as well. I felt that if I told anyone, no one would A) believe me and B) I believed I would be thrown under the bus as a troublemaker and lose my job. At the time the abuse started this country was deep in the recession and my husband didn't have a job. I had to prioritize putting food on the table and shelter over our heads over the abuse.

I'm sure you will say "but oh you should have told someone!" or "you had it coming to you for being a working woman." I never asked to be harassed...I only wanted to do my job to my best ability and not have to worry about some old goat trying to fondle me.

Finally, abusers actually seek out women who are in these "no-win" kind of situations for that very reason...the abuser has the upper hand. Why would Doug go after someone who was in a position of being believed in the wider community?

You have mentioned you have a daughter...would you believe your daughter was a hussy if she were a victim of an abuser? Would you think she had it coming to her?

[lemonhead]

. . . I was harassed at my place of employment over a period of 3 years. . .

But see, it was your fault, Peas n carrots, because you were out there, working in the world. If you had just stayed home, under the protection of your husband/father/eldest son/church elder, it never would have happened /sarcasm

Seriously, this is how the warped thinking of fundiestan works. If your behavior falls outside of their strictly defined rules, then anything bad that happens to you is your fault. Incredibly, though, when something bad happens to a fundie, somehow it becomes "god's will." In the interview with the San Antonio TV station, Beall said something along the lines of, well god must have meant for this to happen because it has brought our family so much closer together. :wtf:

[salex]

But see, it was your fault, Peas n carrots, because you were out there, working in the world. If you had just stayed home, under the protection of your husband/father/eldest son/church elder, it never would have happened /sarcasm

Seriously, this is how the warped thinking of fundiestan works. If your behavior falls outside of their strictly defined rules, then anything bad that happens to you is your fault. Incredibly, though, when something bad happens to a fundie, somehow it becomes "god's will." In the interview with the San Antonio TV station, Beall said something along the lines of, well god must have meant for this to happen because it has brought our family so much closer together. :wtf:

That kind of talk makes me slappy. I suspect she is so deep in denial or so deep in feigning denial that she thinks all this false accusation is God/the Devil testing them. And, yes, even though she was crying in the girl's family living room about all this (please, don't tell anyone) by now, like pharaoh, her heart has been hardened.... I"m sure she's is thinking "and so what if Doug did (some) of those things.. What is a little jism in the face between friends? Should we be made to suffer forever? and she's lying and total tempted him."

But really, the best liars have themselves convinced.

I also have been contemplating the "she was a grown woman" argument. Beyond the grooming, isn't consent one of those things that women raised per Dougie's rules would not really have to give? Isn't he of the "women can't sign contracts without dad or hub agreeing" school? If so, she was socially trained not to ever be the person who decided for herself what was or wasn't supposed to be happening.

I wonder if Beal and Dottie Sandusky can start a little club?

[LogansMama]

But see, it was your fault, Peas n carrots, because you were out there, working in the world. If you had just stayed home, under the protection of your husband/father/eldest son/church elder, it never would have happened /sarcasm

Seriously, this is how the warped thinking of fundiestan works. If your behavior falls outside of their strictly defined rules, then anything bad that happens to you is your fault. Incredibly, though, when something bad happens to a fundie, somehow it becomes "god's will." In the interview with the San Antonio TV station, Beall said something along the lines of, well god must have meant for this to happen because it has brought our family so much closer together. :wtf:

So true. So very true. This is where my frustration comes in. Why can't these people see their hypocrisy? :angry-banghead:

[formergothardite]

Do we need to have a Masters of Divinity to be able to understand what the Bible means when it talks about "filthy" speech not coming out of our mouths? Because you imply that they are a man-made set of rules doesn't make it true. If you don't agree with what the Bible says, fine, I've got no problem with that, believe what you want. But just say that, don't make out like some very clear Scriptures really are in fact not clear at all.

And good works alone do not make someone a Christian. I have known some non-Christians who acted more like Christians than some of the Christians I have known also, but good works alone do not make someone a Christian.

No, you don't need to have a Masters of Divinity, but you need to not rely on the English translation and be capable of looking at was originally wrote, looking at the original context of when and where and why the things were wrote. If you can't do that you aren't really understanding the Bible. I learned more about the Bible when I left fundamental Christianity than I did when I was in it. Looking beyond the English translation and what I was told I was supposed to believe was not encouraged. Do you encourage yourself and your family to step outside the box of what traditional fundamental Christianity says the Bible says, study on what the original text was, study the original context and come to your own conclusion of what the Bible says? If not then you are just following what a man has told you to follow.

[Arete]

I think the fact there was no PIV or "knowing in the Biblical sense" tells you that Dougie knew exactly what he was doing. He didn't want to run the risk of a pregnancy, and he understood the way Texas defines rape to the letter. In essence he had a plan and a backup plan. Groom the girl from the family with the lowest social standing in the church because she was unlikely to tell and jeopardize that standing. On the off chance (in DP's mind) she did tell, be able to say there was no penetration. Cold and calculating from beginning to end.

[Peas n carrots]

I think the fact there was no PIV or "knowing in the Biblical sense" tells you that Dougie knew exactly what he was doing. He didn't want to run the risk of a pregnancy, and he understood the way Texas defines rape to the letter. In essence he had a plan and a backup plan. Groom the girl from the family with the lowest social standing in the church because she was unlikely to tell and jeopardize that standing. On the off chance (in DP's mind) she did tell, be able to say there was no penetration. Cold and calculating from beginning to end.

I believe this 100%. I don't believe he would have dare touches Kelly Bradrick or the Botkins...their fathers have too much clout. Poor Lourdes didn't have a chance...not only was she his "type" but her parents were poor immigrants who did not understand the law very well. She was even more vulnerable than most of the girls at the BCA.

[Artemis]

A thought or two. Please forgive my prolixity.

So this little man, Westchamps, was 'looking for information' about Doug. He found us, (poor chap) and was appalled at the 'straight-up lies masquerading as truth' among other things, and the 'coarse' language.

So he sallied forth to rebuke our lying, tame our unruly tongues (oh for the heady days of the scold's bridle and the ducking stool), chasten our arrogance and counter our unbelief. How positively Arthurian of him: the knight in shining armour battling bravely against the twin dragons of evil and ignorance. A pretty picture indeed.

Except really, it isn't like that.

If he was looking for information because he 'used' to know Doug's family, and wants to get back together with them in their hour of need, then I question why he's looking for information here. If he still has contacts in the (Christian, evangelical) field, then there are so many better people to ask in a kind and Christan way, assuming that his goal is to succour the unfortunate family involved. In fact if he were a friend of the family, then who better to go to than the family? I am sure they could use some spiritual counsel, they must be feeling pretty down right now. Why doesn't he go to them?

If, on the other hand, he is not a 'friend of the family' and was simply trawling the internet for information in order either to a) reinforce his bad opinion of Doug and his own sense of self-righteousness in not being sucked in by him or b) utter a Pharisaic 'I thank thee, Lord, that I am not as most men', in what universe does either of those actions/motivations/attitudes sit with his professed Christianity? That gilded lead cloak, the 'eterno faticoso manto' of the hypocrite, must weigh heavy, don't you think? Hie thee, oh sinner, to the Dantean hell of the hypocrites, and there ponder thy heavy fate.

So, for whatever reason he found himself here, he decided to stay. I wonder if that had anything to do with the fact that the picture we show of fundamentalists and evangelicals doesn't sit well with his understanding of his own status? That he's not so much angry about our lack of understanding of Christianity, as he is annoyed that we apply the label 'evangelical' or 'fundamentalist' pejoratively and dismissively to a set of beliefs, behaviours and attitudes he recognises in himself, and we couple it with an unflattering analysis of the lifestyles predicated by those beliefs and behaviours.

We may, and sometimes do, see these people, swallowing half-truth and untruth as frogs swallow flies, as often well-meaning and sincere, although ultimately gullible and liable to being, sadly, deceived; narrow; ignorant; anti-intellectual; and, alas, figures of pathos. (Some, the leaders who feed their followers on this poisonous spittle and spew, are not pathetic, but are poisonous themelves.) Often we see them as self-deceiving, as well as deceived. That and 'judgemental' of course.

He, on the the hand, sees himself as a successful, honest, honourable, high-status Christian, and intelligent into the bargain. How galling then, to be classed with the lumpen proletariat of Christianity. 'I thank thee Lord, that I am not as other men'. No wonder he's indignant - his self image is not being reflected correctly in our mirror. (Which could be, of course, for either of two reasons: our mirror is distorted; the only possible interpretation he can choose that is consonant with his self image, or ours is the true mirror that strips the white farding from the stinking sepulchre of sexual hypocrisy.)

He remains, he says, to continue to annoy us. How very Christian a use of time. Would it not be better to use that time in offering comfort to a family he once knew - and presumably did like, since no-one willingly consorts with people whose values are inimical to theirs? Has he no words of comfort to offer grieving children and a woman betrayed, and widowed in her affections?

Or if he has no comfort for the family of Mr Phillips, no empathy for the stuggles of an abused girl, and nothing better to do with his time than toy with the understanding of heathens, feminists, and ‘unregenerate’ persons of alternative sexuality and gender on this little corner of the internet, can he truly be a Christian? Would he not be better off on his knees examining his soul, firstly to root out the salacious curiosity that led him here in the first place, and secondly to bring into subjection the unruly and captious spirit that keeps him here in a place where no profit is?

Now he will forever be besmirched with our pitch, a soiled sheep tarred with our brush . . . for evil company does, of course, corrupt good manners.

[usmcmom]

Westchamps, I find your lack of compassion absolutely appalling, though not surprising. Can you imagine, for just one moment that this young woman was humiliated and ashamed? Can you imagine that she had no idea HOW to tell somebody? She was threatened. He told her that if what he did was wrong, it was her fault. Can you imagine the fear she felt knowing she would be blamed and considered a slut for his actions? This started when she was fifteen. What did/will your daughters know about such things at that age? How does a girl raised in this culture tell somebody that the leader of their church has assaulted her? Can you imagine any of this?

I know; you can't. Because men like you cannot see beyond their own narrow and judgmental life view.

I'm just going to say it. I feel so very sorry for girls like your daughters who do not have a man in their lives who would turn this world upside down if a somebody harmed them like this. I feel sorry for them that there is no man in their life who would at least want to tear a man limb from limb for doing what Doug did. You are the kind of man who has to ask "Why didn't she tell anybody?" "Why did she allow this to happen?" "Why did she tempt him?" You are the type of man who find women and girls disposable and only good for the service of men. That is why you even found Doug's teachings appealing in the first place. You can try to minimize what he did all you want; you can try to cast doubt on this woman's story, but it's not going to work here.

Finally, just ponder this. Have you considered that Doug got into the ministry BECAUSE he is a predator? We don't know yet if he has assaulted other women, but predators often put themselves in positions to have easy access to victims.

Just so you know, I don't expect answers to these questions. Consider them rhetorical. Wouldn't want to overwhelm you.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I wonder how much porn Doug watches, masturbating onto a woman's face is not something you would expect a fundie to know about. I bet his hard drive and search history is very telling. Its such a degrading act to force onto someone.

I think Doug knew what he was doing. He wanted to make sure what he did was not rape in the eyes of the law, didn't want to do anything that could get her pregnant-just the most humiliating and degrading things he can do to someone for the least chance of jail. He knows this, he likely gets off to it, and he is sick.

[lawfulevil]

Two points, Westchamps:

One, at the time Wycliffe and then Tyndale were translating the Bible into English, vernacular translations were already available in other European languages.

Two, how about a nice quote?

Whosoever hath this worldes good and seith his brother have neade: and shutteth vp his copassion from him: how dwelleth the love of God in him?

John 3:17

To say that it's "John 3:17" is of course an approximation, the Bible wasn't divided in the way you're familiar with (versified) until the 16th century. My dead-tree copy of the Tyndale New Testament isn't arranged into verses at all, only chapters (which is historically accurate), and the order of the text is substantially different as well. I have about a dozen different Bibles and the strange thing is... none of them precisely match one another! Some of 'em don't even come close.

Well golly gee whillickers, Mister, which one's the right one?

[Othello]

I'd like to punch Doug Phillips in the face too. But we're talking about an adult woman here, not a child. If everything she described in her legal complaint did in fact happen the way she describes it....she had so little willpower that she let it go on for 5 years or thereabouts - completely against her will - without telling anyone or asking anyone for help? This was not an unprotected girl.

You do realize that an estimated 60%+ of rapes are never reported? And this is in the nation at large, in which women are not blamed for everything bad that happens, or shamed to nearly the same degree. It's still bad, but this culture compounds it. So adding to the usual 60% statistic that (1) it was clerical abuse, (2) she was brought up to believe that men always have authority over women, (3) DP was wealthy, she and her family were immigrants and not wealthy, (4) DP had a lot of influence and nobody would believe her word over his word, and I could go on... I am not surprised by the situation at all, and you shouldn't be either. Willpower, seriously. Kids aren't brought up to have any willpower in this culture. Nor is asking for help permissible, since everything has to appear fine and dandy in case The World picks up on the fact we're not perfect!

Does it mean they were never a Christian at all?

Calvin is turning in his grave! Heretic! :-P

[danvillebelle]

Two points, Westchamps:

One, at the time Wycliffe and then Tyndale were translating the Bible into English, vernacular translations were already available in other European languages.

Two, how about a nice quote?

Whosoever hath this worldes good and seith his brother have neade: and shutteth vp his copassion from him: how dwelleth the love of God in him?

John 3:17

To say that it's "John 3:17" is of course an approximation, the Bible wasn't divided in the way you're familiar with (versified) until the 16th century. My dead-tree copy of the Tyndale New Testament isn't arranged into verses at all, only chapters (which is historically accurate), and the order of the text is substantially different as well. I have about a dozen different Bibles and the strange thing is... none of them precisely match one another! Some of 'em don't even come close.

Well golly gee whillickers, Mister, which one's the right one?

To my bolded...yes. Since um, the 9th century in some cases. I was going to come back and ask Westchamps which canon and translation was the "right" one, but you beat me to it. It will be interesting to see his answer.

[lawfulevil]

If it's the KJV, I need someone to pass me my inhaler.

[fuglyexfundy]

You do realize that an estimated 60%+ of rapes are never reported? And this is in the nation at large, in which women are not blamed for everything bad that happens, or shamed to nearly the same degree. It's still bad, but this culture compounds it. So adding to the usual 60% statistic that (1) it was clerical abuse, (2) she was brought up to believe that men always have authority over women, (3) DP was wealthy, she and her family were immigrants and not wealthy, (4) DP had a lot of influence and nobody would believe her word over his word, and I could go on... I am not surprised by the situation at all, and you shouldn't be either. Willpower, seriously. Kids aren't brought up to have any willpower in this culture. Nor is asking for help permissible, since everything has to appear fine and dandy in case The World picks up on the fact we're not perfect!

Calvin is turning in his grave! Heretic! :-P

Let's not forget that according to the complaint, grooming did indeed start before she reached adulthood. In my mind, this makes him no different than Eddie Long. Look at the similarities in grooming methods between the two cases.

[SamuraiKatz]

The Seppis are paying attention to this. Regina and Greg posted a comment.

Wow...a little hand slappy aren't they?