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Doug Phillips is a Tool & Vision Forum is Dead - Part 7


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bumblebee

I do feel sorry for Beall in all of this. It must really suck to realise your husband is an unrepentant cheating douche and by the rules you enforced your the bad guy if you leave him over this. Especially if Doug's supposed "pillow talk" that she might die and he'll marry his mistress is true or has done the local gossip rounds because that must have been truly disturbing.

I don't necessarily blame her if she is trash talking "Hero", many women who should know better do that and worse even in cases where the victim is well underage and vulnerable. I'm also glad "hero" believes there is some responsibility on her part. I do think she is very likely a victim of the theology that those around her preached and Doug personally, in the same way Gothard's girls were often overage but still systematically groomed and ripe for the taking, but if she was in her late 20s when it ended and had gone on for many years when she knew he was married and extremely unlikely to get a divorce so I doubt it can ever have seemed truly right, and knowing that might even help her heal. Though that in no way ever absolves any pastor who deliberately grooms a member of his congregation for sex and does everything in his considerable power to keep her isolated.

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Earthshine

If Doug Phillips truly is a malignant narcissist..I can see why both Beall and Hero behaved the way they did (and in Beall's case, continues to stay.) It is hard for me to judge either woman-especially given the subculture they were living in-and that is due to things I went through in my own dealings with one.

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hoipolloi

RC Sproul, Jr.'s comments on one of his FB posts (facebook.com/rcsprouljr?fref=ts) suggest that Doug Phillips Is A Tool & family would have been welcome at Darby's wedding.

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I need to start a new thread because RC Sproul's facebook page annoys me.

Pro-death argument- "But, without abortion women will die!!!" If murdering babies cured breast cancer, would we support it?

His wife died and he had to bring up his kids without her and yet he can be so cold about a woman's death? It is bad enough that he believes that a mass of cells without a fully formed brain can trump a woman's life but why be so damned dismissive.

One comfort- If God should bless Darby with a child (or 8) she will better grasp the depth of the love her mother and I have for her.

Wow. I have two grandkids. Never did it cross my mind that their birth would somehow be about their parents acknowledging my greatest as a mom. And why is this a comfort to him? It sounds very egotistical. No wonder he accepts Doug

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lilith
I need to start a new thread because RC Sproul's facebook page annoys me.

His wife died and he had to bring up his kids without her and yet he can be so cold about a woman's death? It is bad enough that he believes that a mass of cells without a fully formed brain can trump a woman's life but why be so damned dismissive.

Wow. I have two grandkids. Never did it cross my mind that their birth would somehow be about their parents acknowledging my greatest as a mom. And why is this a comfort to him? It sounds very egotistical. No wonder he accepts Doug

RC and Darby especially are, in my opinion, among the more appalling fundies. I could snark on them all day. Check out his blog, especially the Ask RC section. He (and his appalling daughter) are sanctimonious even by fundie standards.

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If Doug Phillips truly is a malignant narcissist..I can see why both Beall and Hero behaved the way they did (and in Beall's case, continues to stay.) It is hard for me to judge either woman-especially given the subculture they were living in-and that is due to things I went through in my own dealings with one.

Yup. Ohhh, Beall. On the one hand, it's shitty to expose children to a life of patriarchal UGH and what I'm guessing was probably a home life with more than one ugly secret. OTOH, it is really hard for people to leave abusive situations, and a relationship with a narcissist is ripe for abuse. Calvinism, marriage to a narcissist, and lack of access to non-nouthetic counseling is a trifecta of suck. Nothing in that kind of life counteracts the belief that if you're suffering, it's because you deserve to suffer, and the best you can do is to endure it.

I don't agree with Beall on much of anything. But I know and love someone in a situation like hers, and it's not a situation anyone deserves.

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I do not think we have enough information to judge the extent of Hero's culpability or victimhood. We don't even know whether she consented or not (as consent isn't a concept taught in those circles, she may not even know). A "yes" under coercion or duress is not consent. For all we know, she might have objected to the relationship along every step, to the emotional closeness, and to the sexual involvement on multiple occasions. I am positive that at some point, she urged him to not go where she thought he was intending- but to think of his wife and children, only to be brushed off by his royal toolness. Probably the reason she did not tell was to protect this "godly leader" and his ministry. Other than that, what recourse did she have? How could she publicly refuse the honor to look after his children or to help with the ministry or to avoid his attentions?

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thoughtful

This is from the previous thread, but I'm just catching up.

There were quite a few men who expressed interest in courting Victim. But Phillips did everything he could to keep her affections turned towards him, even going as far as telling Victim, “that in every other generation of the Phillips’ family, the wife dies early, so she would only have to wait.â€

:wtf:

The only interpretations I can think of for the above are:

1. The Phillips men murder their wives.

2. The Phillips men wear their wives out so badly that they die.

It's not like it is something genetic, since Beall is not, by birth, a Phillips.

Weird.

:angry-banghead:

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lilith
This is from the previous thread, but I'm just catching up.

:wtf:

The only interpretations I can think of for the above are:

1. The Phillips men murder their wives.

2. The Phillips men wear their wives out so badly that they die.

It's not like it is something genetic, since Beall is not, by birth, a Phillips.

Weird.

:angry-banghead:

God blesses every second generation of Phillips men with a second shot with a new, fertile young wife. Cause they are so godly and so damn good at historical reenactments and wide stances.

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thoughtful

God blesses every second generation of Phillips men with a second shot with a new, fertile young wife. Cause they are so godly and so damn good at historical reenactments and wide stances.

Well, of course -- how silly of me not to see the Superior Fundie Logic of it all!

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The belief that the Phillips men's first wives will die is reason enough NOT to marry your daughter to JT or the invisible Justice. By fundie standards, JT should be looking around for a wife but I can't imagine who would let him take their daughter as his first wife.

Has CnD gone on an extended vacation or did he get tired of playing with us?

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uber frau

He posted a slightly cryptic comment in the Botkin thread and doesn't appear to have been back to clarify.

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MamaJunebug

Am I missing something - there were *two* meetings between the Tools and the Heroes? And one of the meetings was after Doug was caught breaking into the Hero home the *first* time?

I'd go back and look at SSB but already reached my self-imposed time limit for FJ/SSB/AllThingsToolish this morning. Thanks to anybody who has the info top-of-mind and can confirm/deny.

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Howl
I'm tired of the occasional dainty morsel. I want mud-slinging, back-stabbing and major drama, preferably in a courtroom with Doug (Phillips who is a tool) dressed in a fetching orange jumpsuit, accessorized with some shiny handcuffs. DO IT!!! Oh, and Doug Phillips is a tool.

Alas, we may be denied this happy moment of Tool, Esq. in a wide, manly stance in a fetching orange jumpsuit.

Just had an Oh, Snap! moment while reading the comments on the Part 3 time line over at Spiritual Sounding Board re: Tab A/Slot B & "I did not have sex with that woman!"

I did a light google search re: Texas law concerning clergy sexual abuse, and came across this:

Texas. Penal Code Chapter 5. (22.011)

Title 5. Offenses against the person.

Chapter 22. Assaultive Offenses.

Sec. 22.011. Sexual assault.

(b) A sexual assault under Subsection (a)(1) is without the consent of the other person if:

10) the actor is a clergyman who causes the other person to submit or participate by exploiting the other person's emotional dependency on the clergyman in the clergyman's professional character as spiritual adviser…

Perhaps there is a legal distinction about Tab A actually being placed in Slot B for this statute to come into play and this is why this has been so strongly denied?

There has to be a very specific, tactical :shifty-kitty: reason why actual sex between the two has been so strongly denied and I can't sort out what that exact, precise reason is. Or, likely, I'm over-thinking it.

Also Tool, Esq. was not in a professional/spiritual adviser relationship with Hero, so I'm thinking the clergy abuse statute will not come into play. Tool, Esq. was an elder & not a clergyman at BCA, correct? And it does not sound as though the genesis of the affair or any other aspect had to do with her seeking counseling by DP, which would seemingly remove this from the realm of clergy abuse.

Boerne, TX is in Kendall County, so I also looked up the Kendall County Sheriff and District Attorneys. The sheriff belongs to 19:10 Church in Boerne but seems like a normal guy; both DAs have a regular legal background in terms of work & education.

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Am I missing something - there were *two* meetings between the Tools and the Heroes? And one of the meetings was after Doug was caught breaking into the Hero home the *first* time?

I'd go back and look at SSB but already reached my self-imposed time limit for FJ/SSB/AllThingsToolish this morning. Thanks to anybody who has the info top-of-mind and can confirm/deny.

Yep two meetings.

2009 - caught at sexy chat by Hero's mother. Hero's parents, Beall and DPIAT sit down and talk about the "romantic feelings" between Tool and Hero. Denials of sexual impropriety pour forth ( probably with loads of 'how could you even suggest it" -type cries)

December 2012 - caught channelling his inner fairy tale prince - whilst climbing in the window, by Hero's menfolk. Another private meeting between the parents, Beall and The Tool ensues. Relationship over.

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Jane_Goth

Yep two meetings.

2009 - caught at sexy chat by Hero's mother. Hero's parents, Beall and DPIAT sit down and talk about the "romantic feelings" between Tool and Hero. Denials of sexual impropriety pour forth ( probably with loads of 'how could you even suggest it" -type cries)

December 2012 - caught channelling his inner fairy tale prince - whilst climbing in the window, by Hero's menfolk. Another private meeting between the parents, Beall and The Tool ensues. Relationship over.

To me the bolded implies that it was Hero's parents who brought the relationship to end, didn't they move to another church at about the same time? Why did they take so long to get fed up with Doug climbing into their house so that he could play houses with their daughter?

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To me the bolded implies that it was Hero's parents who brought the relationship to end, didn't they move to another church at about the same time? Why did they take so long to get fed up with Doug climbing into their house so that he could play houses with their daughter?

There was a lot more going on in the interim. Per SSB:

In October 2010, Beall Phillips was made aware of the adulterous nature of the relationship when Victim’s mother informed her that Doug and Victim had been kissing. Also in 2010, Doug Phillips sent Victim’s parents on a vacation, perhaps as an attempt to “buy†them off.

Also this:

In the summer of 2011, while in Paris, Doug was confronted by Peter Bradrick (his Vision Forum Executive Assistant) regarding the inappropriate behavior Doug was exhibiting towards Victim in public. Doug denied that anything was going on. Many people were suspicious that there was something inappropriate going on between Doug and Victim, but no one had any proof yet.

The Tool must be apoplectic with rage at Bradrick! for his on-going interference in his affairs. It certainly explains the legal threats.

ETA - While it appears the BCA/VF crowd all had suspicions, they couldn't say for sure that something was going on. Hero's mother and father did have proof. I don't know if they were bamboozled or threatened, or both, but they certainly stuck around for years after finding out that there was monkey business afoot.

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CloakNDagger
Has CnD gone on an extended vacation or did he get tired of playing with us?

No, I had a serious crisis to deal with that isn't over.

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nokidsmom
December 2012 - caught channelling his inner fairy tale prince

:lol:

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Toothfairy

Will these fundies still follow the teachings of their cult since their leader is gone?

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nausicaa

Yep two meetings.

2009 - caught at sexy chat by Hero's mother. Hero's parents, Beall and DPIAT sit down and talk about the "romantic feelings" between Tool and Hero. Denials of sexual impropriety pour forth ( probably with loads of 'how could you even suggest it" -type cries)

December 2012 - caught channelling his inner fairy tale prince - whilst climbing in the window, by Hero's menfolk. Another private meeting between the parents, Beall and The Tool ensues. Relationship over.

Was there any mention of Hero being at any of these meetings? Is a then 28 year old woman a little child who doesn't get to speak for herself? For some reason, this makes me so angry. I am the same age as Hero and just can't imagine my parents being called in to talk about something concerning my life like I'm a third grader in the principal's office.

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thoughtful

:lol:

Maybe, in addition to Victim, Cassandra and Hero, another pseudonym for the young woman might be Rapunzel.

But how does Doug pronounce "dwarves?"

UAPJTik5mSo

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CloakNDagger

There was a lot more going on in the interim. Per SSB:

Also this:

The Tool must be apoplectic with rage at Bradrick! for his on-going interference in his affairs. It certainly explains the legal threats.

ETA - While it appears the BCA/VF crowd all had suspicions, they couldn't say for sure that something was going on. Hero's mother and father did have proof. I don't know if they were bamboozled or threatened, or both, but they certainly stuck around for years after finding out that there was monkey business afoot.

So apparently Beall and JT may have been the ones that asked Peter to talk to DPIAT about it in 2011 from what I've heard. I can't figure out Beall as she has to have known, had concerns at times, but then acted completely as if nothing was wrong, or as if the girl (I'm not going to be calling her Hero from this point out and I'm not sure she'd want you to either) was the entire problem.

Also, I'm not so sure that "many" people were suspicious. I just haven't heard that. It my be a hindsight suspicion, but certainly few if any did anything to tell me that they had serious suspicions. If anything, I would have been more suspicious of his behavior around other girls like the one who he featured in one of the essay contests and several other things.

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