Doug Phillips is a Tool & Vision Forum is Dead - Part 7

[Arete 1,897]

westchamps wrote:

James 3:10

From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so.

The "cursing" here is cursing as in "May you die, and may your children be homeless, and your wife have to prostitute herself to a camel for a slice of bread." type of cursing. Not a single shit, damn, or hell in there. All nice clean words in that type of cursing.

See what I mean about reading without a context?

[westchamps 0]

Checking off another Bingo square . . .

There are no squares left - I need a new card. :D

You definitely seem to be having fun with your Bingo game, but just so you know, I have no clue what you are talking about. If you want to keep talking to yourself, feel free, but if you want me to understand what you are saying about Bingo, some explanation might be in order.

And, since the system Doug built is the thing that keeps women undereducated and both girls and boys limited and warped in their view of the world and their place in it, they might find it harder than those who were raised outside the cult.

You really are reaching. Show me where I said that his little group was the only place this ever happened.

You said: "since the system Doug built is the thing that keeps women undereducated"

But it seems you are admitting that Doug wants women to be less educated than men.

lol, I am admitting no such thing. That is an absurd statement, which I will give you a pass on since you admitted you don't know any VF type families. My wife does not have a 4 year college degree, but she is very educated, and my daughters I can guarantee are more educated than the average young to mid teen's girls in public school. Testing and assessment verified.

I freely admit I don't think I know anyone IRL who was a Dougie devotee. But don't forget, we have the Internet now (hey, we're on it at the moment!) -- these people blog and video and spout who they are and what they believe all over the place. I'm only going by what they say and how they write and speak.

Sorry, but that is not a substitute for knowing someone in real life.

[SamuraiKatz 902]

I think you need a mirror. I already said multiple times I wasn't surprised to see foul/coarse language here, just didn't expect it from people who claim to be Christians.

I am not a christian. I am a big old heathen lesbian. Dammit :-)

[Anise 0]

So it is not okay to say shit and fuck, but it's fine to call people abominations, sluts, and whores. Got it.

[Maxwell 1,760]

So it is not okay to say shit and fuck, but it's fine to call people abominations, sluts, and whores. Got it.

Sluts is right out... I believe the correct term is 'Jezebel'

[westchamps 0]

What I believe isn't legalistic, it is based upon Biblical teachings. If you have a problem with that, then your problem is with the Bible, not me. Whether or not you agree with what the Bible says about such teachings is another story.

You so bad pulling it is not me it is the bible you disagree with line :dead-horse: :head-desk: every christian claims their beliefs are based on the bible but since there are 10s of thousands of brands of Christians and none of them can agree with what the bible says I say bull.

lol, it's not rocket science. When the Bible says "those who spare the rod of discipline hate their children", there's not a whole lot of room for nuance.

Ditto for "22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."

and

"25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself."

If you disagree with what the Bible teaches, that is certainly your prerogative. But you can't bring your own facts to the discussion. The Bible says what it says.

[westchamps 0]

I would guess he lasts a while. He's got that dull, plodding lack of cleverness that might make him think he can convince us godless heathens that cussing is a SIN. I hope his neck doesn't chafe from all the pearl-clutching.

Some of you are very slow. I'm not trying to convince you heathens that cussing is a Sin. As I've pointed out multiple times already.

[westchamps 0]

Doug and Beall confronted his younger sister when she graduated from college with a degree in vocal music and basically told her she must move to Texas and live with them, learn to be a SAHD/W and give up her dreams. If she didn't do this, she'd be damned for eternity and spend it in hell. This upset his sister greatly.

She has gone on forward to a blossoming opera career in Europe, free from their grasp.

Yes such a godly man threatening his own sister. YMMV.

Somehow, I wonder if there might possibly have been a little more nuance to the discussion than the way you have presented it here. :roll:

[hoipolloi 24,601]

I think you need a mirror. I already said multiple times I wasn't surprised to see foul/coarse language here, just didn't expect it from people who claim to be Christians.

Nope - I do need a break from fundy patriarses like you.

Speaking of you, if you despise FJ so much why are you here? How does your being here square with your Godly, Manly "Christian"* theology? What religious obligation are you fulfilling by coming here?

*I put Christian in quotation marks when referring to you because I have known & know Christians whom I love & respect. Compared to them, you, sirrah, are no Christian.

[Maxwell 1,760]

lol, it's not rocket science. When the Bible says "those who spare the rod of discipline hate their children", there's not a whole lot of room for nuance.

Ditto for "22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."

and

"25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself."

If you disagree with what the Bible teaches, that is certainly your prerogative. But you can't bring your own facts to the discussion. The Bible says what it says.

Let's not forget Galatians 3:26-29

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[lemonhead 14]

I put glitter polish on my fingers today, over a fetching shade of OPI turquoise.

Oh, and I just turned 39. And I have no intention of tossing my glitter; my daughter and I--heathens that we are--enjoy painting our nails in fanciful and alluring hues.

Oh, and I am the breadwinner in my family. Survivor of homeschooled fundiestan, graduate degree-holder, mother of two, married to a lapsed Methodist, full-time employee, and lover of true crime novels and Doctor Who. Surely I will burn in hell forever, but I will do so with fantastic nails and free agency.

[Maxwell 1,760]

Some of you are very slow. I'm not trying to convince you heathens that cussing is a Sin. As I've pointed out multiple times already.

As has already been pointed out cursing does not equal cussing. Sorry, just don't buy that line of reasoning.

[doggie 1,858]

Do you know if thats an accurate translation? do you know if thats what was meant when it was written? the whole rod thing is hotly debated sorry to burst your bubble on that one.

Plus you have to take things in context and the time they were written and what people were like back then. Marriage back then is not practiced now by any Christians. marriage back then and and long before the bible was written was about making alliances and making heirs and that was it. So the early authors of the bible tried to get some love involved. Marriage starts with love and choice now and woman are not chattel like they used to be.

The bible says what you choose it to say when you read you filter its meaning through your experience life personality and such.

The first person to read a freshly written passage that was to become the bible most likely got a different meaning out of it then what was meant. the bible is way to simply written to clearly say what needs to be said it has been translated numerous times errors added meanings changed and cultures changed.you have no way of knowing if you have the right meaning of a passage and claiming god fixed it in your mind is bull.

Everyone disagrees with what the bible says and scholars have been arguing over it since it was written but I am sure you got the right message out of it so thats cool.

If you think you have the bible figured out your just fooling yourself. if you think god fixes your understanding of it does he ignore everyone else?

If you are going to say that what the bible says is the way you should then then you better follow everything it says not cherry pick parts. so have you stoned any neighbors or sold spares daughters into slavery? given most of your money to the poor?

[thoughtful 109,398]

You definitely seem to be having fun with your Bingo game, but just so you know, I have no clue what you are talking about. If you want to keep talking to yourself, feel free, but if you want me to understand what you are saying about Bingo, some explanation might be in order.

You said: "since the system Doug built is the thing that keeps women undereducated"

I will explain about the Bingo comments - when what someone writes or says is so phenomenally predictable, word for word, for their mindset or type, it's a joke to imply that you are ticking off the list of things you knew they would say.

In fact, people actually make mock-ups of Bingo cards:

http://www.stufffundieslike.com/wp-cont ... lbingo.jpg

http://www.bullshitbingo.net/cards/action_movie_cliche/

It was not really for your benefit -- I trust you have noticed that others are reading and posting. And I imagine you feel the same way about us.

I never said VF was the only place or time women were kept back, which is what you mocked me for.

[doggie 1,858]

Some of you are very slow. I'm not trying to convince you heathens that cussing is a Sin. As I've pointed out multiple times already.

So is preaching on a street corner and pointing out others sins. Calling people names is very un jesus like. Love they neighbor as they self. So you are a good christian by the good deeds not by preaching them. calling others sinners while sinning yourself is a sin.

[Othello 509]

Not to be insensitive to whatever you have gone through, but if you have been "screwed by his teachings", is that on him, or is that on you ... the people who listened to those men and followed them, did so of their own free volition.

Oh boy. Let's put it this way: I was incubated within a particular belief system from a very young age. You talk about my own volition? That's a nonexistent concept in the belief system in question. You are to stay "under authority," which essentially means unquestioning obedience. If I disagreed with anything, I had to do it secretly or give it up completely, because there could be no reasoning or questioning of the God-given authorities. Children are raised to follow directions, resulting in a generation of kids with serious setbacks in their abilities to survive outside the incubator, which cannot last forever. My parents were well-meaning and I love them, but they'd been fed an ideal and a formula that cripples rather than enables.

As for Doug's teachings being "anti-childrens-best-interests"....for starters, the very idea of what is in a particular child's best interest is extremely subjective ... My kids routinely test out multiple grade levels ahead of their same age public school peers, so I think I win that argument.

That line is right on, regarding the subjectivity. However, what does taking a test several grades ahead have to do with real life? Been there, done that. I was one of those kids—precocious, homeschooled, brought up in a straitjacket. I play 7 musical instruments. I have a decent intellectual capacity. I graduated high school at 16. I'm now in my early 20s, having been denied a college education by the belief system; it's been a struggle to be viewed as legitimate in my industry. I've made progress by working hard, but I'm stuck 4 years behind people of a comparable age and skill level; someday I hope to have the extra money to go back and get a degree. I was never allowed friends; when we kids became close with any one group, we would begin going to a different church (social circles were, of course, limited to church activities; youth group? No way!). I've made a lot of progress in this area as well but I am still incredibly naive in regards to social skills and how to interact normally. I understand you would most likely defend this, but if you can take a step back from the VF scope of reference and evaluate this kind of thing from a balanced viewpoint, there's no way that this is actually in the best interests of children if you actually want them to be able to cope and succeed in the world at large beyond a tiny corner of ultra-conservatism.

[westchamps 0]

Not Jesus -- Paul.

For all you know, he was speaking about telling the truth, not "cuss words." In fact, isn't Matthew 12 one of the speeches about self-righteous Pharisee types? Jesus might have been happier with what we are saying here than what you are.

This sounds like it's about no longer needing to keep Kosher. And again, we have no way of knowing if Jesus would have been less offended by someone saying the things you are than he would about swearing and calling out hypocrites.

Paul again.

James starts with a J, unlike Paul, but that's still not a quote from Jesus.

Proverbs, not Jesus.

Not to mention that discussing the truth is not slandering, and keeping secrets, in the context of what we are discussing, seems like the worst possible thing to do!

Really, we have no way of knowing if Jesus would have been deeply offended by someone saying "shit" -- I don't think that "swear words" were what they were referring to when they talked about cursing in those days.

For Bible believing Christians, the entire Bible is the inspired Word of God, no matter what apostle or prophet actually put pen to paper and wrote down the words. Therefore, the Bible is straight from the mouth of God. It doesn't matter whether it was James, Paul, Peter, Moses, Jesus or Ronald McDonald who was quoted saying the things in those scriptures. If you're a Bible believing Christian (and I am), it is all from God. Since you're not a Christian, I don't expect you to understand, but you asked where did Jesus/the Bible talk about Christians not being coarse, and I showed you multiple scriptures.

[doggie 1,858]

For Bible believing Christians, the entire Bible is the inspired Word of God, no matter what apostle or prophet actually put pen to paper and wrote down the words. Therefore, the Bible is straight from the mouth of God. It doesn't matter whether it was James, Paul, Peter, Moses, Jesus or Ronald McDonald who was quoted saying the things in those scriptures. If you're a Bible believing Christian (and I am), it is all from God. Since you're not a Christian, I don't expect you to understand, but you asked where did Jesus/the Bible talk about Christians not being coarse, and I showed you multiple scriptures.

well you believe every version of the bible? if not you can't make a claim of a bible believing christian. Believing and following are two different things. belief is easy following is hard. do you follow everything in the bible? in every version of the bible?

[thoughtful 109,398]

For Bible believing Christians, the entire Bible is the inspired Word of God, no matter what apostle or prophet actually put pen to paper and wrote down the words. Therefore, the Bible is straight from the mouth of God. It doesn't matter whether it was James, Paul, Peter, Moses, Jesus or Ronald McDonald who was quoted saying the things in those scriptures. If you're a Bible believing Christian (and I am), it is all from God. Since you're not a Christian, I don't expect you to understand, but you asked where did Jesus/the Bible talk about Christians not being coarse, and I showed you multiple scriptures.

No, I asked where Jesus said something about it.

Many Christians do not believe that every single word in the Bible came straight from God through the human who wrote it, and was then translated perfectly into English.

And don't bother telling me that they are, therefore, not Christians -- it's not your place or mine to decide that.

[church_of_dog 27,743]

Nope, just that Christians would engage in such conversation.

Your shock has been noted.

I already said multiple times I wasn't surprised to see foul/coarse language here, just didn't expect it from people who claim to be Christians.

Your expectations have been noted.

Clearly there are people here who identify as Christian and who also use "coarse" language. Again, your shock has been noted. Your opinions about the connection or lack thereof between their identified religious affiliation and their language are just that, opinions. And not especially relevant to the topic.

Presumably you are intelligent enough to learn from your experiences; thus, you now know to expect such language, since you have seen it with your own eyes.

Can we move on now?

[SamuraiKatz 902]

For Bible believing Christians, the entire Bible is the inspired Word of God, no matter what apostle or prophet actually put pen to paper and wrote down the words. Therefore, the Bible is straight from the mouth of God. It doesn't matter whether it was James, Paul, Peter, Moses, Jesus or Ronald McDonald who was quoted saying the things in those scriptures. If you're a Bible believing Christian (and I am), it is all from God. Since you're not a Christian, I don't expect you to understand, but you asked where did Jesus/the Bible talk about Christians not being coarse, and I showed you multiple scriptures.

Jesus was an historical person. Mohammed was an historical person. The Buddha(Guatama Siddhartha) was an historical person. Ronald McDonald fictional character (clown) created to entice people to buy a particular brand of fast foood.

Santa Claus = Parents

Easter Bunny = Parents

Tooth Fairy = Parents

God = Parents

Each of the above characters have one thing in common. They are purported to be omniscient and all knowing. Santa won't bring you toys if you are naughty...God eternally tortures those who "sin". Be good or else is not a true choice.

God is a human construct by which humans attempt to explain that which is beyond the understanding of the human mind.

Whatever belief gives you comfort is acceptable. Calling those of us who dare to question the bullshit of mere mortal fallible human beings "coarse" is not.

Edited for riffle. :-)

[westchamps 0]

I'm still waiting for a fundamentalist Christian Nobel Prize Winner, Ivy League School President, Oscar Winning Director, Astronaut, Physicist, etc.

lol, so that's your "measuring stick" to prove that fundamentalist Christians aren't just a bunch of dumb hicks from the sticks? How do you know, by the way, that there has never been a fundamentalist Christian Astronaut or Physicist?

Hell, I want ALL homeschooling fundementalists to have the GUTS to have their children take the yearly state exams that children in the public schools have to take. Most won't, because if they did the numbers would not be pretty or in your favor.

This is l-a-u-g-h-a-b-l-e. My siblings and I were home educated and were not required to take achievement tests, but our parents wanted us to anyway. So we did. Every year. Iowa Tests. More difficult than the California achievement tests that many public schooled children were taking. We routinely tested 3-4 grade levels ahead of the average same-age public-schooled peers. In every subject. My sister graduated college at age 18 from a huge, well-known state university as the youngest female graduate in the 120+ year history of the school. While working to help pay her way through school. My brother scored 1550 on his SAT, was an amateur concert pianist and graduated with honors from a top 5 in the nation law school and now works at one of the top 20 corporate law firms in the country. Yep, just a bunch of dumb fundie hicks from the sticks. It is the rule, not the exception, that home educated children score better in standardized tests than their same-age public-schooled peers. Don't believe me, look it up. http://www.nheri.org/

We take our own children to be assessed every year once a year by a woman with a PHD in education, and they routinely are assessed at 3-4 grade levels ahead of same-age public school peers.

According to this 2011 article, home educated children have won the National Spelling Bee 4 times, and that particular year, even though only 2.9% of America's school children are educated at home, 9.8% of that year's contestants were home educated. http://archive.wired.com/geekmom/2011/0 ... ing-facts/ - bunch of dumb hicks, I tell you, just don't know the first thing about edjumacationizing their kids, prefer to keep 'em down and stupid, huh?

Which brings us into the numbers about divorce, which are pretty black and white and if you want to do it legally, you still have to do it through the state and be counted. You can have the pastor denouncing divorce from the pulpit every Sunday and twice on Wednesday, it isn't going to do any good. The congregation knows that divorce is not good, and yet they still divorce at a higher rate than atheists. They get married too young, have incomplete knowledge about sex and human feelings, are not told that they don't have to stay in the man/breadwinner woman/homemaker roles for God to love them, buy into this garbage about courtship and chaperoning so they never get to really know the person they are supposedly vowing to spent eternity with, do not have the tools to adapt as their life circumstances change.

Funny thing is, my wife and I are the perfect example of the picture you are painting of "divorce prone" young Christians, except for all the problems you listed. We went through courtship, married young, didn't go out on dates, never kissed until after the preacher said "man and wife" and....by golly....17 years and a bunch of kids later, we're happier and more fulfilled now than we've ever been. And we know a bunch of others who mirror our own experience. In fact, I can't think of a single fundamentalist Christian home educated people marriage, off the top of my head, of people I know, that has ended in divorce. All of my siblings are married as well, and what do you know, none of them are divorced, either, having been married anywhere from 20 years down to 3 years. I guess we all got lucky and just defied the odds, huh? Ummm....no.

There are far better Christians who understand the scriptures with a lot more discernment than most evangelicals who will tell you that raising your hand to a child, especially your own child, is wrong. They have read Proverbs as well. More statistics back them up that children who are not spanked have less delinquency, drug use, better grades, etc. So no, my problem is not with the Bible, it is with the Bible thumpers. There are many ways to read the Bible, and "literally, word for word, with no context", is an evangelical invention at most 3 centuries old.

I would love to know what the Scripture means when it says that you hate your children if you spare the rod of discipline, if it means something other than what it says, as you are implying. Feel free to inform me.

[westchamps 0]

I just wanted to point out that language can be subjective and culture based. You probably wouldn't be offended by the phrase, Holy Cow, but it is insulting to Hindus. My dear, devout grandmother read the bible every day but she would say shit, because that was what she grew up hearing. And lets not forget that the n-word used to be okay in polite society, but we wouldn't dare use it now.

ergo, words that used to be not acceptable in polite society....now are?

Okey-dokey.

[westchamps 0]

The "cursing" here is cursing as in "May you die, and may your children be homeless, and your wife have to prostitute herself to a camel for a slice of bread." type of cursing. Not a single shit, damn, or hell in there. All nice clean words in that type of cursing.

See what I mean about reading without a context?

That is a highly....nuanced take. Let's say for the sake of argument that you're right. What about all the other scriptures I posted about foul/coarse language being used by Christians?

[feministxtian 62,869]

Shit...IE crapped out on me and I lost my post...lemme see if I remember it all...

Ok...regarding "coarse language"...there's a HUGE difference between cursing and cussing. Jesus hung out with a bunch of fishermen, right? I seriously doubt they said "golly gee willikers" when they sliced their hands on the nets...

Regarding that rod you're so fond of...do you know the context? The rod is referencing the staff the shepherd carried when the sheep were out to pasture. He used that rod to keep the sheep out of trouble (sheep are notoriously stupid), not to beat the shit out of them. So...to apply it to children goes something like this...the rod is a figurative symbol (that would have been well-understood in the ancient society) and to use it on your children means to guide them into the right paths and keep them out of trouble...not to beat the shit out of them either.

You fundies forget that the verses you cherry-pick are not to be taken out of context. The divisions of chapters and verses are man-made. Those books and letters were meant to be read as a whole...

And if you'd care to argue with me, go for it. I have a bachelors in religion from a rather conservative Baptist university...graduated with a 3.7 GPA.