Doug Phillips is a Tool & Vision Forum is Dead - Part 7

[CloakNDagger]

Will these fundies still follow the teachings of their cult since their leader is gone?

They sure act like it. Hopefully the World Magazine article will shake them, and the fact that Doug Phillips is a Tool had them hoodwinked with his "repentance" while planning to threaten the men that cared about him enough to confront him.

[congusto]

Maybe, in addition to Victim, Cassandra and Hero, another pseudonym for the young woman might be Rapunzel.

But how does Doug pronounce "dwarves?"

UAPJTik5mSo

Mirror images?

[congusto]

CnD - Sorry to hear you're in the midst of a dealing with a crisis, and I hope that works out well for you. Thanks for weighing in here, in spite of that.

You bring up an interesting detail, with regard to Beall, their son, and Paris. Do you think they were at their wits' end, and asked Peter Bradrick to intervene because their own pleas were falling on The Tool's deaf ears? It must surely have come up at home, amongst themselves and was not resolved at all, if they felt they had to take this step?

With regard to World, I did notice a blog link in the comments that show there are still a few baby/bath water types around. **sigh**

[Palimpsest]

Alas, we may be denied this happy moment of Tool, Esq. in a wide, manly stance in a fetching orange jumpsuit.

Just had an Oh, Snap! moment while reading the comments on the Part 3 time line over at Spiritual Sounding Board re: Tab A/Slot B & "I did not have sex with that woman!"

I did a light google search re: Texas law concerning clergy sexual abuse, and came across this:

Texas. Penal Code Chapter 5. (22.011)

Title 5. Offenses against the person.

Chapter 22. Assaultive Offenses.

Sec. 22.011. Sexual assault.

(b) A sexual assault under Subsection (a)(1) is without the consent of the other person if:

10) the actor is a clergyman who causes the other person to submit or participate by exploiting the other person's emotional dependency on the clergyman in the clergyman's professional character as spiritual adviser…

Perhaps there is a legal distinction about Tab A actually being placed in Slot B for this statute to come into play and this is why this has been so strongly denied?

There has to be a very specific, tactical :shifty-kitty: reason why actual sex between the two has been so strongly denied and I can't sort out what that exact, precise reason is. Or, likely, I'm over-thinking it.

Also Tool, Esq. was not in a professional/spiritual adviser relationship with Hero, so I'm thinking the clergy abuse statute will not come into play. Tool, Esq. was an elder & not a clergyman at BCA, correct? And it does not sound as though the genesis of the affair or any other aspect had to do with her seeking counseling by DP, which would seemingly remove this from the realm of clergy abuse.

Boerne, TX is in Kendall County, so I also looked up the Kendall County Sheriff and District Attorneys. The sheriff belongs to 19:10 Church in Boerne but seems like a normal guy; both DAs have a regular legal background in terms of work & education.

I'm going to disagree with the bolded because according to BCA's own definition DPiaT was most definitely in a pastor/clergy/spiritual advisor position with Hero and her family. It is going to be very interesting to watch how this all turns out if it goes to court. The lawyers are going to have a field day, IMO.

BCA affirms the London Baptist Confession of 1689 and claimed to organize the church under those directives. Look here: boernechristianassembly.org/confession/2008/01/the-church.php

(my bolding)A particular church gathered and completely organised according to the mind of Christ, consists of officers and members. The officers appointed by Christ to be chosen and set apart by the church are bishops or elders and deacons. These are to be appointed for the peculiar administration of ordinances and the execution of power or duty with which the Lord has entrusted them and to which He has called them. This pattern of church order is to be continued to the end of the world.

The way appointed by Christ for the calling of any person fitted and gifted by the Holy Spirit for the office of bishop or elder in a church, is that he is to be chosen by the common consent and vote of the church itself. Such a person should be solemnly set apart by fasting and prayer, with the laying on of hands of the eldership of the church (if there be any previously appoint elder or elders). The way of Christ for the calling of a deacon is that he is also to be chosen by the common consent and vote of the church and set apart by prayer, with the laying on of hands.

Because the work of pastors is to apply themselves constantly to the service of Christ in His churches by the ministry of the Word and prayer, and by watching for their souls as they that must give an account to Him, the churches to which they minister have a pressing obligation to give them not only all due respect, but also to impart to them a share of all their good things, according to their ability. This must be so done that the pastors may have a comfortable supply and that they may not have to be entangled in secular affairs, and may also be able to exercise hospitality towards others. All this is required by the law of nature and by the express command of our Lord Jesus, Who has ordained that they that preach the Gospel should live by the Gospel.

[nokidsmom]

Maybe, in addition to Victim, Cassandra and Hero, another pseudonym for the young woman might be Rapunzel.

But how does Doug pronounce "dwarves?"

On dwarfs vs. dwarves

grammarist.com/usage/dwarfs-dwarves/

[Howl]

I'm going to disagree with the bolded because according to BCA's own definition DPiaT was most definitely in a pastor/clergy/spiritual adviser position with Hero and her family. It is going to be very interesting to watch how this all turns out if it goes to court. The lawyers are going to have a field day, IMO.

Fine by me and thank you for this clarification! The type of information that members come up with is one of the more fascinating aspect of this forum. Ditto on a field day for lawyers!

... This pattern of church order is to be continued to the end of the world.

:o

[Palimpsest]

They sure act like it. Hopefully the World Magazine article will shake them, and the fact that Doug Phillips is a Tool had them hoodwinked with his "repentance" while planning to threaten the men that cared about him enough to confront him.

CnD I hope your crisis is resolved quickly and to your liking.

Two questions to answer if and when you can:

1. As a "rebuking" is not the same as an excommunication, to your knowledge has Doug Phillips attended BCA since November or has he left completely?

2. Are people in the wider VF group (not just BCA) thinking that Church organization per the Baptist Confession of 1689 is still the way to go? Are people discussing having more Elders, greater accountability, more oversight, etc.

My fear is that this will be written off as just a DP aberration not a problem with the organizational structure in general and its potential for abuse. It is my understanding that no meetings (not Peter and Doug, Hero's parents and Doug, nor the Gang of 5 and Doug) should have occurred without the involvement of another Elder or Elders to mediate the discussion even under BCA rules. Sarratt was completely out of the loop.

Again, per SSB, it is notable that no-one knew what to do with this problem once it became known. Not Sarrat, the VF board, and not Hero's family's new church. What a mess.

[Want More Babies]

In 2007, illicit relationship became sexual...the victim began spending more time in the Phillips home and with the Phillips family. She was considered a close family friend...Phillips employed Victim to write Jonathan Park radio drama scripts with his daughter in an effort to spend more time with her. This was a paid position and provided Doug more opportunities to spend more time with Victim in his home after his children had gone to bed.

In 2009, Victim’s mother caught Doug Phillips and Victim having sexual-based chat sessions in the middle of the night. Doug, his wife, Beall, and Victim’s parents met. This was the first time Doug and Beall and Victim’s parents met together. Doug confessed to having romantic feelings for Victim, but there was no acknowledgement of any sexual impropriety.

Does anyone else have a problem with this? For two years your daughter is spending A LOT of time with your minister and his family, is hired to write a radio drama, and is considered a "close family friend" while you are going to church every Sunday and sitting under Doug's teaching but you NEVER, in those two years, have spent any time with this family? I think this goes to show that Doug and Beall looked down on Hero's family.

That said, I wonder who was "worthy" enough to spend time with Doug and Beall from church.

[nausicaa]

Does anyone else have a problem with this? For two years your daughter is spending A LOT of time with your minister and his family, is hired to write a radio drama, and is considered a "close family friend" while you are going to church every Sunday and sitting under Doug's teaching but you NEVER, in those two years, have spent any time with this family? I think this goes to show that Doug and Beall looked down on Hero's family.

That said, I wonder who was "worthy" enough to spend time with Doug and Beall from church.

I interpreted the bolded sentence as meaning, the first time they had met together to discuss the inappropriate relationship, not the first time they had spent time with one another.

[dcmhejbl62]

CnD - Sorry to hear you're in the midst of a dealing with a crisis, and I hope that works out well for you. Thanks for weighing in here, in spite of that.

You bring up an interesting detail, with regard to Beall, their son, and Paris. Do you think they were at their wits' end, and asked Peter Bradrick to intervene because their own pleas were falling on The Tool's deaf ears? It must surely have come up at home, amongst themselves and was not resolved at all, if they felt they had to take this step?

It wouldn't surprise me. If you've been taught your whole life that God hates divorce, that children from broken homes are doomed to live broken lives, that it is the worst thing that could ever happen to your children... well, you'll put up with a lot, while trying everything to fix it.

Also, the common wisdom on relationships is that "it takes two," that a broken marriage is never one person's fault. In conservative Christian circles, women with problems in their marriages are told to figure out what they are contributing to the problem and fix themselves (and this does not include recogizing abuse, becoming assertive, etc. More along the lines of pray for your husband, show an interest in his activities, etc.).

Also, how old was her youngest when she became aware of all this? Many times the narcissist will increase his outside activity when the wife is at her weakest, ie pregnant or just after a baby.

As someone who has been there, I have a hard time blaming Beall, even though her actions look bad in hindsight. I can't begin to imagine the load of crap The Tool was feeding her during that time. And Mama Bears protect their cubs at all cost, even at cost to self. If she thought there was a way to save the marriage and save her kids from the horrors of divorce (many greatly exaggerated by the conservative Christian world, but how would she know?), she would do it. I also can't blame her for her reaction toward Hero -- see Mama Bear statement -- or the pretenses in public, since I'm sure the Narcissist made it plain the whole family would be doomed if she didn't play along and it would be all her fault.

[GenerationCedarchip]

They sure act like it. Hopefully the World Magazine article will shake them, and the fact that Doug Phillips is a Tool had them hoodwinked with his "repentance" while planning to threaten the men that cared about him enough to confront him.

Sorry to hear you're going through a crisis. I hope things resolve themselves well for you.

I was glad to hear that Hero is doing better. Beall and the children are the other ones I feel truly sorry for because I know they're in a very difficult situation both emotionally and financially. Do you know how they are doing?

[Othello]

No, I had a serious crisis to deal with that isn't over.

Sorry to hear that, here's to a quick and beneficial resolution! *raises glass* Hope everything gets worked out for ya.

What I really wonder is how the Phillips kids are doing. I have met the guys once or twice perhaps at some event years ago (I've spoken briefly with DP himself! *gasp*) but of course know nothing of who they actually are underneath the façade of perfection. They also have a better time of it than the girls, often gallivanting about the globe on the various adventures; but what are they thinking/feeling? One would hope JoshT and Justice would be striking out on their own in some form or another, but it doesn't seem so. I know they've been marinated in this culture since their birth but is there hope for them to break the mold even a little? How affected are they by the recent revelations and has it changed their outlook whatsoever?

[CloakNDagger]

CnD I hope your crisis is resolved quickly and to your liking.

Two questions to answer if and when you can:

1. As a "rebuking" is not the same as an excommunication, to your knowledge has Doug Phillips attended BCA since November or has he left completely?

No, a "rebuke" is most certainly not an excommunication, although it's results are broad. Some people's rebukes like the Smithe family and the rest of the guys that left in 2012, seemed to have the effect of a de facto excommunication, though the elders were careful to dance around it. The rebuke had the effect of separating friendships and bringing a bad name down on those men, and also kept the elders from having to go through with what would have been a messy church trial. Other rebukes seem less damaging.

Pretty sure he's been back since the rebuke. I don't know how often.

2. Are people in the wider VF group (not just BCA) thinking that Church organization per the Baptist Confession of 1689 is still the way to go? Are people discussing having more Elders, greater accountability, more oversight, etc.

The LBC 1689 is certainly still used in a number of the surrounding churches and I have heard no rumblings about it not being adequate. Discussion about elders, accountability, etc... has certainly taken place, but I suspect that direct discussion has been minimal. They'd rather not talk about it, or only talk privately with those who "need" to know.

My fear is that this will be written off as just a DP aberration not a problem with the organizational structure in general and its potential for abuse. It is my understanding that no meetings (not Peter and Doug, Hero's parents and Doug, nor the Gang of 5 and Doug) should have occurred without the involvement of another Elder or Elders to mediate the discussion even under BCA rules. Sarratt was completely out of the loop.

Definitely. I'm worried about that as well. I also have problems with the organizational structure (or lack thereof!), and more-so with other teachings that lead to this kind of situation, and also with yes-men, glory-seekers, other weak-minded men in leadership, and erroneous views of church discipline.

Again, per SSB, it is notable that no-one knew what to do with this problem once it became known. Not Sarrat, the VF board, and not Hero's family's new church. What a mess.

That's because they don't seem to know anything but Matthew 18. They forgot the "whole counsel" of Scripture, like 1 Cor 5, what a girl should do when sexually assaulted, etc... If you think someone's just a bad apple, and refuse to consider that he might be a lemon, it's seriously problematic.

[CloakNDagger]

CnD - Sorry to hear you're in the midst of a dealing with a crisis, and I hope that works out well for you. Thanks for weighing in here, in spite of that.

You bring up an interesting detail, with regard to Beall, their son, and Paris. Do you think they were at their wits' end, and asked Peter Bradrick to intervene because their own pleas were falling on The Tool's deaf ears? It must surely have come up at home, amongst themselves and was not resolved at all, if they felt they had to take this step?

I don't know, but someone had concerns for sure.

With regard to World, I did notice a blog link in the comments that show there are still a few baby/bath water types around. **sigh**

Oh yeah!

[debrand]

CnD, I hope that what ever is wrong resolves itself in whatever way is best for you. :hug:

So, it was JT that spoke to Bradrick? That gives me a better impression of the young man.

Homeschool kids do go to secular universities so maybe the boys, at least, could turn their lives around because of their father's fall. Do you think that Beall would be open to letting her kids obtain some sort of education beyond homeschooling?

[CloakNDagger]

CnD, I hope that what ever is wrong resolves itself in whatever way is best for you. :hug:

So, it was JT that spoke to Bradrick? That gives me a better impression of the young man.

Homeschool kids do go to secular universities so maybe the boys, at least, could turn their lives around because of their father's fall. Do you think that Beall would be open to letting her kids obtain some sort of education beyond homeschooling?

1. I'm OK.

2. If what I've heard is correct, it was JT and Beall.

3. I hope JT does get well in the future. He has the potential to.

[gustava]

CND has indicated that the young woman involved might not be comfortable with the name we've given her. Might we change it?

[debrand]

CND has indicated that the young woman involved might not be comfortable with the name we've given her. Might we change it?

I will call her whatever the board decides but I am not clever enough to think of a substitute.

[Palimpsest]

Thanks for your response.

CnD I hope your crisis is resolved quickly and to your liking.

Two questions to answer if and when you can:

1. As a "rebuking" is not the same as an excommunication, to your knowledge has Doug Phillips attended BCA since November or has he left completely?

No, a "rebuke" is most certainly not an excommunication, although it's results are broad. Some people's rebukes like the Smithe family and the rest of the guys that left in 2012, seemed to have the effect of a de facto excommunication, though the elders were careful to dance around it. The rebuke had the effect of separating friendships and bringing a bad name down on those men, and also kept the elders from having to go through with what would have been a messy church trial. Other rebukes seem less damaging.

Pretty sure he's been back since the rebuke. I don't know how often.

More uneven application of the rules and regs. Doug Phillips has no shame (no surprise) and the remains of BCA has no sense of self-preservation it seems.

2. Are people in the wider VF group (not just BCA) thinking that Church organization per the Baptist Confession of 1689 is still the way to go? Are people discussing having more Elders, greater accountability, more oversight, etc.

The LBC 1689 is certainly still used in a number of the surrounding churches and I have heard no rumblings about it not being adequate. Discussion about elders, accountability, etc... has certainly taken place, but I suspect that direct discussion has been minimal. They'd rather not talk about it, or only talk privately with those who "need" to know.

So secrecy and a lack of transparency in everything is still the order of the day. That is so destructive.

My fear is that this will be written off as just a DP aberration not a problem with the organizational structure in general and its potential for abuse. It is my understanding that no meetings (not Peter and Doug, Hero's parents and Doug, nor the Gang of 5 and Doug) should have occurred without the involvement of another Elder or Elders to mediate the discussion even under BCA rules. Sarratt was completely out of the loop.

Definitely. I'm worried about that as well. I also have problems with the organizational structure (or lack thereof!), and more-so with other teachings that lead to this kind of situation, and also with yes-men, glory-seekers, other weak-minded men in leadership, and erroneous views of church discipline.

I'm glad you are thinking critically. The problem is that Phillips is not the only bad apple out there. Far from it. There are other leaders who refuse to comply with the strictures and guidelines of their own church discipline (however f'd up I think it is!). Yes, Scott Brown, I'm looking straight at you and the schism you caused with Hope vs Trinity Baptist, but there are many others.

Again, per SSB, it is notable that no-one knew what to do with this problem once it became known. Not Sarrat, the VF board, and not Hero's family's new church. What a mess.

That's because they don't seem to know anything but Matthew 18. They forgot the "whole counsel" of Scripture, like 1 Cor 5, what a girl should do when sexually assaulted, etc... If you think someone's just a bad apple, and refuse to consider that he might be a lemon, it's seriously problematic.

[DomWackTroll]

CnD, you said, "I hope JT does get well in the future." Are you implying that he's had some sort of breakdown over the present situation, or just saying that he needs to get out of an unhealthy environment?

[Palimpsest]

CnD, you said, "I hope JT does get well in the future." Are you implying that he's had some sort of breakdown over the present situation, or just saying that he needs to get out of an unhealthy environment?

I think CnD said that he hopes JT does well in the future because he has the potential.

I do genuinely feel sorry for the children, including JT. The bottom fell out of their world.

[Talitha Cumi]

I will call her whatever the board decides but I am not clever enough to think of a substitute.

Well, "Hero" came from the Much Ado About Nothing character who was wrongly accused of being unchaste. When we picked the name, this whole thing was new and we all assumed Hero would be thrown under the bus as a Jezebel. I'm happily surprised that this wasn't the case. I think, though, that changing the name in midstream would get very confusing.

[Palimpsest]

Well, "Hero" came from the Much Ado About Nothing character who was wrongly accused of being unchaste. When we picked the name, this whole thing was new and we all assumed Hero would be thrown under the bus as a Jezebel. I'm happily surprised that this wasn't the case. I think, though, that changing the name in midstream would get very confusing.

I think "Hero" is and was very apt but I can see why "Hero" might not like the pseudonym if she is unfamiliar with Shakespeare. I doubt the Bard is part of approved BCA curricula.

I don't think we should use her real name until she comes forward with her own statement. I'm also drawing a blank on another psuedonym for her.

[hoipolloi]

I think "Hero" is and was very apt but I can see why "Hero" might not like the pseudonym if she is unfamiliar with Shakespeare. I doubt the Bard is part of approved BCA curricula.

I don't think we should use her real name until she comes forward with her own statement. I'm also drawing a blank on another psuedonym for her.

Agree that her real name should not be used.

JA calls her Victim, which a number of people here would probably reject since they see her as partially responsible for what happened. Considering her age, she is hardly a "Girl," as CnD called her. Maybe Jane Doe or Miss Doe?

[Palimpsest]

Agree that her real name should not be used.

JA calls her Victim, which a number of people here would probably reject since they see her as partially responsible for what happened. Considering her age, she is hardly a "Girl," as CnD called her. Maybe Jane Doe or Miss Doe?

How about "Survivor." I'd vote for that because it is exactly what she is. She has accepted responsibility for any part she played (although I'd say still she was a victim of Doug) and is battling on with her life against some strong odds. I wish her well and want her not just to survive but to succeed.