A question about quiverfull

[Toothfairy]

I think most fundie children don't go on to have as many children as their parents. They know what's it's like to raise kids already and live in cramped spaces. As soon as they(boys)get out in the real world and realize how expensive it really is to raise a family with no education they will most likely leave the fundie lifestyle or try to limit the # of kids they have.

[PurpleSheepleEater]

My mother was one of 12 (catholic) and none of them had more than 3 and none of my generation have more than 3 either. Being a sibling in a large family comes with it's own set of problems, I find that most people in "mega" families have many less kids than their parents. Still watching a few friends who came from huge litters (fundie) to see if that holds true but so far no one has come even close to the 10+ they came from and we are all nearing the end of childbearing.

[DGayle]

I haven't read all the comments yet, and have a bunch of other posts to read/skim, so am tossing my beans in now.

I think the Duggars and Bates are representative of the upper echelon of fundies. They're 1st gen fundies who went to college if they wanted and got into debt to build their fortunes, or were, like Gil, one of a few big known families at the time that the richer ones helped. The number of 1st gen big heads is pretty small compared to the number of overall fundies. The 2nd gen are their kids, and now that their kids are reaching adulthood, I think these fundies are starting to see the problem, but are denying it. You can only have so many towing or tree-hauling businesses in one town. How are all those boys supposed to start businesses? Since the boys aren't supposed to marry until they do, I think we'll start seeing more fundies hitting their late 20's and 30's still single.

Already what they're doing isn't sustainable. Anna and Josh were married at 20 because he had a business. Jessa is 21, and a marriage might be on the horizon, but she's already behind. Then there's Jana, at 24, who is on her way to being another old maid, and Jill. Why do you think this is happening? Because there aren't enough boys who can make businesses without oversaturating their areas. I think we're going to see a lot more boys at home unto their late 20's and later because they haven't figured it out, and hell no, they can't go get a regular job working for another fundy because that's bad.

So gen 2 is screwed already. Their kids are going to make a larger generation, but I don't think as large as gen 2 because gen 2 is having to wait longer, so less time to have kids. Their idiot parents really didn't think ahead.

[Jana814]

I think most fundie children don't go on to have as many children as their parents. They know what's it's like to raise kids already and live in cramped spaces. As soon as they(boys)get out in the real world and realize how expensive it really is to raise a family with no education they will most likely leave the fundie lifestyle or try to limit the # of kids they have.

Agree!

[Tdoc72]

My dad is 1 of 14 (plus 2 miscarriages). They were barely getting by. I'm talking 3-4 kids to a double bed & re-using the bathwater a few times. After my grandfather died when the youngest was 7, they had nothing. My grandma barely kept food on the table & kept up w/the kids. While they did go to Catholic school, my one aunt has said that there was no encouragement of doing well in school for their future, just urged to graduate and move out, being one less kid to feed & clothe. 7 have 2 kids, 2 have 3, 1 wanted kids but couldn't have any, and 4 have none of their own choice. Of my 20 cousins and I, most have gone to/plan to go college or the military. And the 6 oldest cousins average 2 kids each & the rest are still unmarried (younger than 24) but I think the average of 2 will continue.

One time I did ask my grandma if it hurt each time she had a baby (vs. the log flume effect), and she said, "Hell yes, it hurt!" :lol:

[Melissa1977]

I agree with the posters above who pointing out the doctrinal differences between the Catholic Church's and Quiverfull's prohibitions on birth control. Catholics are supposed to avoid birth control because contraception is a sin. While lots of children are typically the result of that, I don't hear many Catholics other than the fringe pushing one to have a large family for the sake of taking over the world. As I understand it, if you are just really, really successful at NFP, then technically the Church should be cool with you and your 2.5 kids.

However with Quiverfulls, you are supposed to be making as many God warriors as possible. It leaves a lot less wiggle room for couples.

That's right.

Plus, catholics are OK with using natural birth control (like tracking calendars to avoid fertile days or use Billings method).

My country has been tradicionally catholic but my grandparents were married in the 50's and condoms were sold. Due to the price, not everybody could afford, but people used something because the average children were 2-3 per family when my mother was born (1956). And I'm taking about catholic families who went to church evey sunday. But these couples had lived a civil war&poverty as a teenagers, and were smart enough to have few children, so these children could be properly feed and clothed.

Poor people having lots of children has an only result: more poverty.

[RosyDaisy]

It's unsustainable.

* They can only marry like-minded people, there will be a shallow pool of unrelated mates.

* Only the wealthy couples will be able to help their sons start their own business.

* A lot of small businesses fail which means financial hardships and unable to support a large family without government assistance.

* Third, it appears that fundies leaders are being ousted which causes turmoil among the ranks.

* SOTDRT, isolation, racism, misogyny, patriarchy and a lack of critical thinking skills makes them ill-suited for jobs and for dealing with the secular world.

I think think many of the current young fundies child (say 10 and younger) is where we will see the mass transition to a less fundies lifestyle. Hopefully with Doug Phillips the Crazy Ass Tool and Bill Gothard's fall from grace, fundies will reevaluate their beliefs and change.

[Handmaiden of Dog]

I've thought about this quite a bit. Using the Duggars as an example, I'm going to predict there will be plenty of help for the first 5 kids that get married-- houses, jobs, loans, etc. but even ole JB's finances are not unlimited. He will have to conserve his resources in order to continue supporting the unmarried brood. Plus, he and Michelle will age and require more in the way of medical treatment, prescriptions, eyeglasses, etc. There isn't going to be any money for the grandkids and we may even see the unmarried kids end up destitute if JB dies early or if there is a catastrophic medical event.

[Jana814]

My dad is 1 of 14 (plus 2 miscarriages). They were barely getting by. I'm talking 3-4 kids to a double bed & re-using the bathwater a few times. After my grandfather died when the youngest was 7, they had nothing. My grandma barely kept food on the table & kept up w/the kids. While they did go to Catholic school, my one aunt has said that there was no encouragement of doing well in school for their future, just urged to graduate and move out, being one less kid to feed & clothe. 7 have 2 kids, 2 have 3, 1 wanted kids but couldn't have any, and 4 have none of their own choice. Of my 20 cousins and I, most have gone to/plan to go college or the military. And the 6 oldest cousins average 2 kids each & the rest are still unmarried (younger than 24) but I think the average of 2 will continue.

One time I did ask my grandma if it hurt each time she had a baby (vs. the log flume effect), and she said, "Hell yes, it hurt!" :lol:

How interesting that 4 didn't have any kids. Which # is your dad?

[16strong]

My dad is 1 of 14 (plus 2 miscarriages). They were barely getting by. I'm talking 3-4 kids to a double bed & re-using the bathwater a few times. After my grandfather died when the youngest was 7, they had nothing. My grandma barely kept food on the table & kept up w/the kids. While they did go to Catholic school, my one aunt has said that there was no encouragement of doing well in school for their future, just urged to graduate and move out, being one less kid to feed & clothe. 7 have 2 kids, 2 have 3, 1 wanted kids but couldn't have any, and 4 have none of their own choice. Of my 20 cousins and I, most have gone to/plan to go college or the military. And the 6 oldest cousins average 2 kids each & the rest are still unmarried (younger than 24) but I think the average of 2 will continue.

One time I did ask my grandma if it hurt each time she had a baby (vs. the log flume effect), and she said, "Hell yes, it hurt!" :lol:

Fascinating that all of the kids had so few of their own. I'd be interested to know why 2 of them had a "brood" of 3 instead of the 2 or none typical of the others. I keep feeling like a lot of large secular families and Catholic families have little to do with the outcome of Quiverfull, though. For one, with Catholicism, natural methods of BC are allowed, but with Quiverfull, none are allowed at all. Also, Catholicism tends to be more friendly when BC is used. The kids generally aren't taught that they're heathens going to hell if they use it, just discouraged. Also, it seems to me like many Catholics aren't indoctrinated in the same way and to the degree of modern fundies. I guess the question we should all be asking is how much will personal opinions about workloads as a child in a large family stack up against their religious indoctrination? Will Jana's (probable) great dislike of raising so many children and doing so many chores overcome what her parents have pounded into her head since a small child? So many questions...

[mrs]

There are different strains of fundie, and some I think are more sustainable. For instance, I'm near DC so I see plenty of Patrick Henry, Liberty, and Regent grads from Quiverfull backgrounds going into military, government service, law, etc.., and some of them are well on their way to starting QF families of their own.

In addition, most of the Reformed fundie churches I'm familiar with were not so heavily into ATI. VF had plenty of fans but the move to turn away from college isn't pronounced everywhere. The fundie college grads aren't the folks we see blogging, but they do exist and I could see them continuing to exist for generations. Of the families I know personally, I would say that it seems to be about 50-50 in terms of which kids decide to go QF and which don't. I do see them marrying later than their parents did, though, so I suspect the family sizes will be more like 4-6 kids rather than 8-10+.

Just curious, are any of your friends (former/current)members of SGM? What are there attitudes / reactions about the scandal?

I also think we might see some fundies "bleeding the beast." I also worry some families may go off the grid completely and become survivalist. There are some similarities between the survivalist community and the fundie community.

[nausicaa]

My dad is 1 of 14 (plus 2 miscarriages). They were barely getting by. I'm talking 3-4 kids to a double bed & re-using the bathwater a few times. After my grandfather died when the youngest was 7, they had nothing. My grandma barely kept food on the table & kept up w/the kids. While they did go to Catholic school, my one aunt has said that there was no encouragement of doing well in school for their future, just urged to graduate and move out, being one less kid to feed & clothe. 7 have 2 kids, 2 have 3, 1 wanted kids but couldn't have any, and 4 have none of their own choice. Of my 20 cousins and I, most have gone to/plan to go college or the military. And the 6 oldest cousins average 2 kids each & the rest are still unmarried (younger than 24) but I think the average of 2 will continue.

One time I did ask my grandma if it hurt each time she had a baby (vs. the log flume effect), and she said, "Hell yes, it hurt!" :lol:

Now that I think about it, my dad is one of nine kids (and my grandfather was a lawyer so they really weren't poor). Yet, only five of the kids went onto have children, and the most per family is four kids. My mom is one of six and they were REALLY poor (dad ran off when sixth was born) and two of the kids never had children of their own. The most per family is also four (my uncle, who had two kids in each of his marriages). The youngest only had one child.

[Elenor]

Anyhow the Duggers/Bates will end up with 50-100 grandkids... and by the time the 3rd generation fundies will come around (and they continue to marry among themselves) whom is related to whom will get really complicated... just like the European royal houses! :doh:

[FJismyheadship]

Re: Shortage of jobs for fundies.

Maybe that ties into part of why Jim Bob approved of Ben. He knows the issue with not letting his kids go to college, but he won't admit it. However, with Ben going to school and getting a degree in Business Management, that opens up doors for Ben. He's not sending HIS kids to college, but what does it matter that Jessa's future husband gets to go? Not HIS kid... at least not until they are married.

Although he would never let one of his sons marry a girl who went to college. That's a big no no.

What if Joy wanted to go to college? Or Josiah? If they left, could they get financial aid without their parents signing forms?

[blackkatya]

If I remember right, the FAFSA requires you to provide your parents' financial information until you are 24 or married, whichever comes first (I married at 22 and was considered "independent" for financial aid purposes). So maybe if they wait it out long enough...

[Tdoc72]

How interesting that 4 didn't have any kids. Which # is your dad?

My dad is the 2nd oldest and has 2: my sister & I. While I'm glad he did, he wasn't the best father. He required a lot of alone time & silence, which destroyed his marriage & after the divorce, had very little contact w/my sister and I (I was 9. Luckily my mom remarried & my stepfather, that I call Dad, is awesome). We did reconcile (I was 27) and had a good relationship for 7 years until he passed away in 2007. I've always wondered if he was like that because he had 11 younger siblings, but I never asked him.

Of the 4 that didn't have kids, 2 have openly said they just didn't want to, 1 married a divorced man who already had 2 kids so she raised them, and the last one never married, but probably would have had kids.

I'd be interested to know why 2 of them had a "brood" of 3 instead of the 2 or none typical of the others.

One was married, had 2 kids, got divorced and remarried, then had 1 more. The other was married, had 1, got divorced & remarried and had 2 more. Now that I think about it, that's kind of interesting. I think if they hadn't gotten divorced, they would have not had anymore.

[Georgiana]

Catholics also have the Doctrine of Stewardship, which means that they are called by God to care for those in their care to the best of their ability. This means that if having an additional child would impact your ability to care for your other children/carry out God's calling in your life, you are justified in doing what you need to to prevent this. NFP doesn't work for every woman. In some women, it straight up does not work. So if an additional child could impact your health or resources in such a way as to be a serious situation, you can in good conscience use contraceptives to prevent this. But also you should pray about it and make sure God's telling you it's OK.

So, in summary:

"I'm on the pill because I don't want a kid"-->Bad

"I'm on the pill because I can't feed another child"-->Ok

"I'm on the pill because I am married, but I care full time for my aging grandmother and cannot care for a child in addition"-->Ok

"I'm on the pill because God calls me to do dangerous work that prevents me from having a safe environment for a child"-->Ok

"I'm on the pill at the recommendation of my Doctor"-->Ok (but SUPPOSED to be for serious health reasons not something like acne)

[Arete]

My great grandmother, who was born in 1895, was the oldest daughter of nine children. Her mother died in childbirth with #9. Dad did not remarry. Of these 9, all reached adulthood, 8 married, and there was a total of 20 children from those 8. Two of them had 3 children a piece, the rest had two. In the early 20th century. Controlling your fertility is a BIG DEAL on this side of the family. If you are male, you are taught only animals breed constantly. If you are female, you are taught only animals breed constantly.

When the women get to the "I'm old enough not to give a damn what comes out of my mouth anymore" stage, they will tell the younger women how lucky they are to have so many birth control options today, when they had to make do with withdrawal and headaches. Yeah, you can pick up some pretty interesting sociological information when grandma and her peers have a glass a wine and decide that some history needs to be transmitted before they die. ;)

[Coconut Flan]

Nothing like a group of Greek grandmas to set the world straight. Put Greek grandmas and soccer moms together and idiots need to flee in terror.

[Georgiana]

I agree with the posters above who pointing out the doctrinal differences between the Catholic Church's and Quiverfull's prohibitions on birth control. Catholics are supposed to avoid birth control because contraception is a sin. While lots of children are typically the result of that, I don't hear many Catholics other than the fringe pushing one to have a large family for the sake of taking over the world. As I understand it, if you are just really, really successful at NFP, then technically the Church should be cool with you and your 2.5 kids.

However with Quiverfulls, you are supposed to be making as many God warriors as possible. It leaves a lot less wiggle room for couples.

Even in the fundie-light Catholic community I was raised in, families with a lot of kids and not enough money are looked down upon. If you have the money to support a large family, wonderful! It's your choice and people support that! But if you have more kids than you can afford and have to start relying on handouts to support them, people are NOT fond of that. There's a huge feeling of you have to both birth and care for your kids.

So, from what I have seen, there's a very different social outlook. Children are not trophies, and families like the Duggars pre-TLC and the Bates would be looked down upon. QF, on the other hand, encourages and rewards mothers for just popping out babies. Care for them is an afterthought.

ETA: basically I was trying to say you were right on with what I've seen!

[Coconut Flan]

I agree with that. There is a family of now thirteen or fourteen children in a local eastern orthodox parish. Half or so are natural born and the rest are adopted. People praised them until the last two adoptions where they began the begging. More and more of the parish are of the opinion that you got them they are yours to care for and perhaps if the church does not bail them out, then they'll come to their senses and stop collecting children. I met them at six children and they were doing a remarkable job. Somewhere around 9 or 10 they began relying on the oldest daughter and things were taking what looked to me like the wrong turn.