Bill Gothard Ousted - IBLP/ATI scandal - Merge

[Coconut Flan]

All I remember were lots of rumors that Jana was working at HQ because the Duggars dropped her off there, but she was being a leader for a JTTH and was back home three weeks later. Maybe she went to HQ another time and I missed it.

[16strong]

I wouldn't be surprised if they just ignored the whole thing, praying the problem will just go away if they don't mention it or pay attention to it. Look at all the anti-gay stuff Smuggar has said or the "Abortion = Holocaust" JimBoob has said. They never even wrote a statement saying that they don't agree with the Duggar's beliefs. At least A&E and ABC gave statements when one of their stars said something homophobic. Smugger has said plenty of anti-gay stuff and no statement from TLC has come.

So yea, I would not be surprised if they just don't mention the Gothard scandal and try to hide the Duggar's affiliations like they are doing with Smuggar and his affiliation with the Family Research Council.

Well, they're not doing a very good job. I have conservative friends posting Smuggar's FRC bullshit all over FB. :roll:

[redcurls]

Can someone PLEASE explain what happened in the 80's that got Gothard (temporarily) removed? I'm confused.

[Tangy Bee]

So how long do ya think it will take for this to hit mainstream media? Gothard isn't as well known as Billy Graham.

[16strong]

So how long do ya think it will take for this to hit mainstream media? Gothard isn't as well known as Billy Graham.

Personally, I feel like a lot more is going to have to happen than just stories of Gothard playing footsie. He's not big enough for these types of infractions to matter to the general public. Plus, the media would have to explain who and what Gothard and ATI is. It wouldn't be a big enough scandal for the hassle of having to shove the significance down people's throats. At least, I don't think so, but maybe I'm wrong.

[Inky]

Can someone PLEASE explain what happened in the 80's that got Gothard (temporarily) removed? I'm confused.

I'm not sure it's been released publicly. I don't recall reading about it anywhere, just that he had been censured. I'm thinking the guy has a major foot fetish - it could be more of that.

[nelliebelle1197]

I am not seeing much of a scandal that would blow the lid off anything. There is nothing criminal that I can find in his behavior - most sex crimes in Illinois require penetration/intercourse/guns/child porn. I read the code

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/il ... de+of+1961.

It is mostly just a creepy, sick, elderly virgin exploiting the women and girls in his charge. I am not sure anyone would care much outside our circles. I think the man should at minimum be publicly shamed and barred from ever being in a room alone with a girl or woman again, but we are the society that celebrates the horror that is Duck Dynasty and elevates those awful Palins. Duggar fans won't care. Hell, the Duggars probably won't even care. ToolTime had minions waiting to dethrone him. I don't see the Pecan or a Bates waiting the ATI wings, hoping for Daddy Bill to stumble...

[Cheetah]

I'm kind of confused by the Recovering Grace stories. I totally believe that they are true. But I am wondering why Gothard didn't just marry one of these pretty young things... there certainly seem to be several who would have been up for it at the time (even if in hindsight now the thought squicks them out). It was given that the board wouldn't allow it... but he seems to be powerful enough to overrule that if he wanted. So... either both he and the board feel like he has a lot more power in his position if he's single, and he's on board with that 95% of the time and just gets occasionally swept up in normal emotions and then forces himself to break that off. Or... something even weirder is going on like he's just a foot fetishist (alhtough in that last story he went further than footsie).... or he's being controlled by his sister... or...? It's just all quite weird. If he outright had just married a 22 year old 20 years ago when he was close to 60... yeah I suppose he might have lost some parishioners.... but on the flip side, then the board woulnd't have had to keep such close tabs on his relationships with the secretaries...

What am I missing?

[doggie]

he could and has a good chance of having child porn in his possession. he needs something to get his rocks off. well Silly me I forgot he is been celibate his whole life silly me.

[uber frau]

I'm kind of confused by the Recovering Grace stories. I totally believe that they are true. But I am wondering why Gothard didn't just marry one of these pretty young things... there certainly seem to be several who would have been up for it at the time (even if in hindsight now the thought squicks them out). It was given that the board wouldn't allow it... but he seems to be powerful enough to overrule that if he wanted. So... either both he and the board feel like he has a lot more power in his position if he's single, and he's on board with that 95% of the time and just gets occasionally swept up in normal emotions and then forces himself to break that off. Or... something even weirder is going on like he's just a foot fetishist (alhtough in that last story he went further than footsie).... or he's being controlled by his sister... or...? It's just all quite weird. If he outright had just married a 22 year old 20 years ago when he was close to 60... yeah I suppose he might have lost some parishioners.... but on the flip side, then the board woulnd't have had to keep such close tabs on his relationships with the secretaries...

What am I missing?

Because this isn't about Bill Gothard wanting a healthy, long term relationship. He doesn't want a wife, or even a girlfriend. He certainly doesn't want to find himself waking up every morning with a middle aged (or older ) life companion who has accompanied him through life's ups and downs and who knows his foibles, as well as his good points. He wants a plaything he can toy with. He wants to control the emotions of a nubile, attractive innocent. Someone who will look up to him as being just a little lower than God, someone he can manipulate without them putting up any resistance. It's a game and he gets off on power and control.

As for the board, he doesn't need their permission. He is a private citizen who can legally marry anyone who he wishes (providing it is acceptable under Illinois state law). He is merely using their disapproval as an excuse. If the big, bad, nasty board says he can't marry his plaything, he gets to walk away and find a new victim without the current victim becoming any the wiser.

Besides, going by the comments on the RG board, after the scandals in the 80s (which you can read a little about if you google around) he was careful to restructure the board into a panel of Yes Men with no real teeth. If what is said in the comments of RG is true, hehas the ability to fire the board on a whim, they have no power to hold him accountable.

[love2scrap]

I'm not sure it's been released publicly. I don't recall reading about it anywhere, just that he had been censured. I'm thinking the guy has a major foot fetish - it could be more of that.

His brother Steve admitted to sleeping with several single women at Headquarters. Bill himself admitted to acting inappropriately toward some of the women.

There is a book written on this called A Matter of Basic Principles by Don Veinot. Veinot has contributed to Recovering Grace iirc.

[16strong]

I'm wondering if he doesn't want a wife because that would be an extra layer of accountability? It's easier for him to live a life of impiety as, at the end of the day, he can go home and do whatever he wants. No Teri Maxwell to monitor his internet or phone calls. No snooping in on his business with others. Maybe also he does not want to risk being "found out" and having the wife go public with his transgressions and divorcing him? If he doesn't get married, he can't get divorced. Thus, he always retains the image of "godly man," and can continue to run his sham ministry.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I don't think he really wanted to marry those girls. He just said that cause he is playing head games with them and trying to make them think he loves them, but he doesn't, he just wants to touch them, just like all the other girls he likes. If he married them, he would lose interest when the girl gets to about 25, as he likes them young, and fundies think marriage should be forever and wouldn't excuse him if he marries an 18 year old, and when shes in her mid 20s he divorces her and gets a new 18 year old. Also if he did stay with her forever and just cheat on her, she might find out and then there would be a scandal like Doug the tool.

Also some of the girls were way too young for him to marry. Charlotte was 16, and its been mentioned that some of the victims were as young as 14. Theres no way he is looking for marriage, that is just perversion and also illegal.

I wonder how far he has gone-this one went way further than the last one, the others were the kind of thing that he could easily excuse himself as innocent-he could say he was just trying to be nice and the perverted young girl took it the wrong way and started telling everyone he was sexually abusing her, it was just an accident that his foot touched hers or his hand touched her leg...but this one. This went further than we imagined it could. He touched the breasts of an underage girl and told her to wear bras that make them look bigger, he put his hand between her legs, gave her a kiss on the lips, got pleasure from making her talk about the things she did with her boyfriend...as well as the usual stuff like feet touching. He told her to keep all this as their little secret. There is no way that could be seen as anything other than perverted, illegal and morally wrong.

He says "I have never seen a woman's private parts", but its such a suspiciously specific denial. Theres so much he can force a young lady to do that doesn't involve him looking at her vagina. Charlotte says he put his hand between her legs, so he has come close to touching one, and he felt her breasts through her clothes but never asked her to take her shirt off and give him a look.

Is he even still a virgin? I wouldn't be surprised if he had raped a girl. I find it hard to believe that he has gone this long without sex, especially as he is a very perverted person. Unless just touching is enough to get him off, or he is trying his best with toeing the line between being pure and being an abuser. In fundieland he would be considered impure because he kissed Charlotte. Maybe he knows that any actual sex is out, but goes as far as he feels that he can, and decides that as long as nobody gets their breasts or genitals out, or that he only feels through clothing, he still has his purity and can still claim "I have never seen a woman's private parts"

[Cleopatra7]

I think that Gothard could be a voyeur or someone who likes feeling up girls, but not actual intercourse. If this is the case, then he is in the perfect position to indulge in his kinks, because he has a revolving door of pretty, naive girls who won't complain or tell anyone about his behavior. Marriage, which involves actually listening and caring about another person, would be too much work for Gothard. Having these semi-anonymous "interns" around is easier and more interesting.

[FJismyheadship]

It could also depend on his idea of what a woman is. Charlotte was definitely not because she was underage. Jana Duggar is a woman age wise, but maybe not mentally (I don't know, just throwing that possibility out) Maybe to him a woman is older, doesn't live at home, or is married? Just because he has never seen a woman's privates doesn't mean he has never seen a girls... Again, depending on his idea of woman vs girl.

[formergothardite]

Alfred's reply to this is that it is basically a lie and that the 40 years of accusations are just bitter people trying to take down the man of God. The only way he would even begin to believe this story is if Charlotte's mother stated that yes, she did ignore Charlotte telling her about the sexual abuse and since it doesn't sound like Charlotte and her mother are on good terms and since Charlotte's mother ignored the sexual abuse going on in the home I highly doubt this is going to happen. And Alfred knows it. He asks for proof he knows is virtually impossible to get and then he says, well I would have believed they just had no proof.

And he keeps comparing Gothard to Jesus.

[uber frau]

Alfred is delusional at best and a disgusting excuse for a human being at worst. I suggest he crack open those Gospels he proportedly holds so dear and has a bit of a browse. WWJD and all that? Hell, he could even read a Gothard text. In theory, even Gothard would find his own behaviour unacceptable.

[javafriend]

I wonder if Bill was a nerdy, unpopular teen and he is now living out his adolescent fantasies. He has access to all the prettiest girls that snubbed or rejected him in youth and he can get them to do all the things he used to dream about. Or maybe the above and some combination of over controlling, guilt inducing parents? Could this be what happens when you sublimate all your normal adolescent urges and then find yourself as an adult in a situation where you can indulge them? Some sort of creepy old man/repressed teen plus fake religiouos piety combined to make a monster.

[formergothardite]

I think Bill was a creep in high school too. I might have some of the story wrong, but I remember him talking about how he kept track of all the birthdays in his entire high school and he would mail everyone a card. And I think people thought he was weird for knowing the birthdays of every student and staff in his high school. He also, at the age of 15, became concerned that the people in his high school lacked direction in their life and were doing bad things so he tried to help them. I would love to talk to someone who went to school with him. I bet he was insufferable.

[apple1]

I am not seeing much of a scandal that would blow the lid off anything. There is nothing criminal that I can find in his behavior - most sex crimes in Illinois require penetration/intercourse/guns/child porn. I read the code

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/il ... de+of+1961.

It is mostly just a creepy, sick, elderly virgin exploiting the women and girls in his charge. I am not sure anyone would care much outside our circles. I think the man should at minimum be publicly shamed and barred from ever being in a room alone with a girl or woman again, but we are the society that celebrates the horror that is Duck Dynasty and elevates those awful Palins. Duggar fans won't care. Hell, the Duggars probably won't even care. ToolTime had minions waiting to dethrone him. I don't see the Pecan or a Bates waiting the ATI wings, hoping for Daddy Bill to stumble...

Disclaimer: I am FAR from any kind of legal expert.

I suspect that illegalities would be more likely to be found in federal laws relating to minors and sexual abuse.

Jack Schaap was taken down by a federal prosecutor (a woman!!!eleventy!!!), on the basis of transporting a minor across state lines for sexual purposes. Proof of PIV not required.

I hope those with testimony have contacted federal prosecutors.

[nolongerIFBx]

Jack Schaap is in a federal prison for less.

Since, clearly minors were transported across state lines, even across national borders, here's hoping the feds get involved. But I'm guessing the statute of limitations has long run out on the stories Recovering Grace has published. However, people like Gothard don't stop. Somebody needs to investigate the NOW.

How is raping a 16 year old less than playing footsie with girls in their 20s?

I'm glad that they have 2 people backing up Charlotte's claims. I'm afraid of a Razing Ruth situation.

Back to Schaap, I don't think this will blow up ATI unless the law does get involved. First Baptist tried to cover up Schaap's issues by sending him on sabatical. From what I have heard an entire week went by between when the pictures of him and his just-turned-17 girlfriend were found and the authorities were notified (though whether that was by Jocelyn Zichterman or Trisha LaCroix I guess their supporters can duke it out). They need a case where the statute of limitations hasn't expired. Of course, there's plenty that still stood by Schaap even as he was being sentenced.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Some of these girls were not in their 20s. Charlotte was 16, and some of the girls who have been his favourites in the past have been as young as 14, and what he did to Charlotte was way more than playing footsie-he touched her in a sexual way.

So far, hes not raped anyone though, so not as bad.

[nokidsmom]

How is raping a 16 year old less than playing footsie with girls in their 20s?

I'm glad that they have 2 people backing up Charlotte's claims. I'm afraid of a Razing Ruth situation.

Back to Schaap, I don't think this will blow up ATI unless the law does get involved. First Baptist tried to cover up Schaap's issues by sending him on sabatical. From what I have heard an entire week went by between when the pictures of him and his just-turned-17 girlfriend were found and the authorities were notified (though whether that was by Jocelyn Zichterman or Trisha LaCroix I guess their supporters can duke it out). They need a case where the statute of limitations hasn't expired. Of course, there's plenty that still stood by Schaap even as he was being sentenced.

Exactly what I think, nothing will happen unless law enforcement gets involved. Given that this has been ongoing for decades and Ol' Bill just moves on from one to another, it's probable that there's cases that are still within the statute of limitations.

[Justme]

I don't for one minute believe Billy is a virgin. I don't believe he necessarily did anything illegal. He could have very easily hopped a plane to the Bahamas for a "normal" vacation and had a vacation "romance" just like many other Tom, Dick, and Harry's.... Or, he might have gone into a local bar far away from "Gothardland" and met somebody. He could have very easily had "relations" with a consenting adult who was over the age of 21. Though most of us want to at the though of him nakked, there is "someone" for "everyone" someplace.

[RosyDaisy]

I hope they bring Gothard and his whole enterprise down. The way to do that is follow the money and have his most recent come out to the public about the things Gothard did to them.