Science Fair for Creationist Students

[mpheels]

Why is the speed of light a problem for young earth creationists?

They explain the problem pretty well here: rationalwiki.org/wiki/Starlight_problem

Basically, if Earth/universe is only 6,000 years old, we shouldn't be able to see stars that are billions of light years away, and therefore billions of years old.

[doggie]

even simpler why are there trees older then 6000 years? the whole argument is pointless. ham would not address such things as old trees and ice layers. so in his mind they don't exist so how can you argue about them?

[August]

They explain the problem pretty well here: rationalwiki.org/wiki/Starlight_problem

Basically, if Earth/universe is only 6,000 years old, we shouldn't be able to see stars that are billions of light years away, and therefore billions of years old.

It's also involved in isotope dating. They claim that isotopes broke down faster in the past, but it's related to the speed of light. As Ham says

Some recent, though controversial, research has raised the interesting suggestion that c (the speed of light) has decreased in historical times. ... If it is correct, then radioactive decay rates would automatically be affected, and would show artifically high ages. (Ham et al., page 72.)

even simpler why are there trees older then 6000 years? the whole argument is pointless. ham would not address such things as old trees and ice layers. so in his mind they don't exist so how can you argue about them?

This one's a doozie. So, radiocarbon dating, tree rings and ice cores all independently show certain ages, right? The creationists say that we use circular reasoning, that because they all show the same thing they are not independent methods. But, they are the experts on circular reasoning.

[Anise]

It's also involved in isotope dating. They claim that isotopes broke down faster in the past, but it's related to the speed of light. As Ham says

I didn't know that was mainstream YEC. I remember seeing videos of a loony "astrophysicist" husband and wife team, I think it was, showing off a chart demonstrating how rapidly the speed of light has decreased with historical estimates and error margins. He also claimed that space was reverberating with the first words God spoke. Like some sort of membrane or something.

In trying to look him up, I discovered this gem from the AiG website:

In that case, the earth would be in a gravitational well. . . This being the case, clocks on earth would have ticked much more slowly than clocks in deep space. Thus, light from the most distant galaxies would arrive on earth in only a few thousand years as measured by clocks on earth. This idea is certainly intriguing. And although there are still a number of mathematical details that need to be worked out, the premise certainly is reasonable. Some creation scientists are actively researching this idea.

Bahahahahaha.

[August]

there are still a number of mathematical details that need to be worked out

Bwahahaha You want the math? You can't handle the math!

[EmiGirl]

Except I've never met a YEC who understood that micro-evolution is part and parcel of evolution. They don't "believe" in evolution, but if you query on whether individual species evolve over time, they accept that they do. They also usually believe in survival of the fittest. They just don't have any concept that both are tenets of evolution, because afterall 'evolution is a theory and has never been proven' and they don't understand that a scientific theory is not the same as the definition they are using. They just accept most of the tenets of evolution without grasping that it's evolution, because they only recognize macro-evolution as the big, bad evolution.

I have a friend who was a YEC when she earned her Biology degree and says that it never even came up, because she avoided all learning of 'evolution' but accepted all of the tenets except macro-evolution. It wasn't until years later when she became an atheist that she just shook her head and wondered what the heck she was thinking back when earning her degree.

According to Ken Ham, the confusion on how the speed of light stands up to YEC explanations is simply that the rules of physics manifest differently today than they did historically, so what we see NOW simply didn't exist in the past, and therefore we cannot utilize anything of what our sense, knowledge and experiments tell us TODAY to extrapolate anything about the past, and we should therefore use the Bible to explain the past because we don't know how physics worked in that past to understand how to interpret our findings.

Basically, I believe in what science an observation tells me *today* and as far back as I am forced to accept the human record of observations. However, once I get beyond reliable human observations, I just assume that what I know didn't actually exist so science simply has nothing to do with the past. I can then make up any story I WANT to explain that past and I choose to use the literal Biblical explanation of six days a merely couple of thousand years ago. But yeah, it's beyond the point when humans were recording their observations and I negate that science operated as we know it does today, so you cannot disprove my fairy tale with logic nor science.

How did she get a degree in Biology without taking any courses on evolution!? It was a required class even at my Christian (Methodist) college for ALL of us Bio majors.

[docmom]

Wikipedia calls it non-denominational (and conservative Christian). It was founded by a Baptist who also founded the Anti-Evolution League of Minnesota.

You can do this! Awesome! I'm forming the Anti-Gravity League of New York tonight.

[chaotic life]

How did she get a degree in Biology without taking any courses on evolution!?

I have no idea and she honestly cannot remember. She says even if she had taken it and forgot she did, she was so entrenched in YEC that she would have considered it a puppet class and parroted what was expected without actually listening or hearing what it really was she was supposed to be learning.

[thoughtful]

Every time I see the title of this thread, I think "It's a classic oxymoron -- like jumbo shrimp!"

Their displays must be really easy to make:

[FloraKitty35]

rright, I need a home school student who wants to enter this that I can help sponsor. we're gonna figure out the size of the ark based on how much poop it had to hold and still float. because these people are great at dealing in large quantities of bullshit.....

It didn't hold shit, because the LORD didn't allow them to evacuate their bowels, that or they shit out the portholes.

[August]

I have no idea and she honestly cannot remember. She says even if she had taken it and forgot she did, she was so entrenched in YEC that she would have considered it a puppet class and parroted what was expected without actually listening or hearing what it really was she was supposed to be learning.

If she shut her ears and went la la la for a week or so during biology 101, and was particularly dense she could have avoided further real understanding. Yes, it makes everything harder, but you don't have to determined to block out the subtext to miss it entirely. The world is fill of people memorising things to get through exams.

[salex]

I am looking at the ones from last year, and some of these are not just non-experiments (which is allowed), but they don't even seem related to science.

One of them is on shooting targets with a gun, for real.

one is on "oil pulling". WTF is oil pulling

one poster just says "CRANBERRIES" and seems to have a lot pictures of cranberries

this may be a fund project to do with kids except you know the intent is to show that the world is only 6000 years old tccsa.tc/fair/2013/DSCN0564.jpg

If they want to prove that homeschool kids can do science as good as those in traditional schools, they are failing.

I had to look up "oil pulling" and here it is.... (per Wikipedia)

The practitioner rinses the mouth with approximately one tablespoon of oil for 15–20 minutes on an empty stomach (before eating/drinking) then spits it out[6] and washes the teeth, gums, tongue (softly) and palate thoroughly. Cold pressed (raw) oil is often said to be critical to the alleged effectiveness. Sesame oil, sunflower oil, coconut oil[7] and olive oil are the most recommended. Oil pulling is usually recommended to be done first thing in the morning, followed by rinsing the mouth with (sea salt) salt water and then brushing the teeth in a normal morning routine.

and

Oil pulling or oil swishing is a traditional folk remedy that involves swishing oil in the mouth. It is mentioned in the Ayurvedic text Charaka Samhita, where it is called Kavala Gandoosha or Kavala Graha. Ayurvedic literature describes oil pulling as capable of both improving oral health and treating systemic diseases such as diabetes mellitus or asthma.[1] While scientific evidence is lacking to support any systemic benefits of oil pulling, some studies have suggested that it may reduce oral plaque, halitosis, and gingivitis.[1][2][3][4][5] These studies all show that either chlorhexidine or oils can reduce plaque if included in a regular or routine oral healthcare program among those with high plaque scores and don't show that oils themselves improve scores, but rather that proper oral healthcare does.

[snarkopolis]

? WTF ? Back in the olden days (and even now) my really Catholic High School (and Catholic elementary school science class) taught evolution not Creationism. I don't even remember it being brought up. ? WTF ?

[artdecades]

I had to look up "oil pulling" and here it is.... (per Wikipedia)

and

So I am guessing this project was done to prove the pagans wrong. Cuz its not like Christians have any weird health related practices