Muslim Woman: discovers treated better without hijab.

[theologygeek]

I'm not ashamed of my body, I don't cover because I think men have no self-control if they see my hair (I still go out sometimes without a scarf), and I don't believe God thinks I'm worth less than anyone else. No matter how much some might want to make it so, choosing to cover does not = shame or low self-esteem.

You're not choosing to cover, as much as you want to make this sound like it's a personal choice. If you think that your god is telling you to cover your head, then you are doing it out of obedience. If you tell your kid to make his bed, he is not making it because of a personal choice. He is making it because you told him to and he is obeying you. A personal choice is "Could you do me a favor and make your bed?" A command is "Make your bed." It is time for some Christians, Muslims, and that Sikh woman with a beard (who came right out and said that she does it because her god tells her to), to stop trying to sugar coat what they're doing by making it sound like "it's a personal choice, no big deal, whatever, sometimes I do and sometimes I don't..." I don't know if these people have themselves convinced that it's a personal choice, or if they want others to believe it so they don't have to be questioned about it. But if you are convinced that it's a personal choice, then you don't have to admit that a male head is forcing you to be submissive and telling you that you are low on the totem pole.

[theologygeek]

And that is absolutely her right. I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with, is you telling me it's "wrong" for ME to cover because I believe my God tells me to, without being able to give any concrete reason why. Or ascribing motives to me that simply aren't there.

I gave enough evidence that Paul isn't commanding you to cover your head, and why it didn't come from Jesus. You're telling people that Jesus told you in the bible to cover your head. I'm telling you that Jesus didn't. You haven't provided any evidence that he did.

[danvillebelle]

You're not choosing to cover, as much as you want to make this sound like it's a personal choice. If you think that your god is telling you to cover your head, then you are doing it out of obedience. If you tell your kid to make his bed, he is not making it because of a personal choice. He is making it because you told him to and he is obeying you. A personal choice is "Could you do me a favor and make your bed?" A command is "Make your bed." It is time for some Christians, Muslims, and that Sikh woman with a beard (who came right out and said that she does it because her god tells her to), to stop trying to sugar coat what they're doing by making it sound like "it's a personal choice, no big deal, whatever, sometimes I do and sometimes I don't..." I don't know if these people have themselves convinced that it's a personal choice, or if they want others to believe it so they don't have to be questioned about it. But if you are convinced that it's a personal choice, then you don't have to admit that a male head is forcing you to be submissive and telling you that you are low on the totem pole.

I bolded your "some" because it's exactly right - SOME. It is a personal choice for me. I was a practicing Christian for 12 years before I started wearing a covering. I have gone for up to a year at a time without wearing it. Some days I wear it, some days I don't. I don't think God is angry with me if I don't wear it. It is a directive that I choose to follow most of the time, and I find that my prayer life and my life in general tend to go more smoothly when I do. NO ONE in my entire city that I have ever seen in nearly 5 years of living here, outside of a tiny handful of Muslim women, wears a covering. No one. I am the only person in the entire church I currently attend who wears one. Nobody cares, they accept me as I am.

My husband doesn't care if I cover or not. No one is forcing me to do it. If I decide tomorrow that nope, I am not covering any longer for the rest of my life because I don't feel it's important enough or I don't see enough of a difference for it to matter, then that's that and I don't believe I'm somehow going to be punished by God. It's not a salvation, make or break issue.

But if if makes you feel better to think that I am cowering in submission to a God that I fear and that I actually think He thinks less of me because I'm a woman, well, you go on thinking that.

BTW, I don't bark orders at my kids, I never have. I DO say "could you do me a favor and unload the dishwasher?" and they do it. It's called mutual respect based in love. The things that I try to do in my Christian life in obedience to God flow from love - not fear, not unworthiness.

[danvillebelle]

I gave enough evidence that Paul isn't commanding you to cover your head, and why it didn't come from Jesus. You're telling people that Jesus told you in the bible to cover your head. I'm telling you that Jesus didn't. You haven't provided any evidence that he did.

You gave me enough evidence? A complete stranger in one paragraph on a public message board, with no references, is enough evidence? I never said "Jesus told me in the Bible to cover my head." I said I studied 1 Corinthians 11 and came to the conclusion that it was something I wanted to follow. You seem hell bent on putting words in my mouth.

Do forgive me, but when it comes to this issue, I will stick with the sources that had direct links to the disciples, and the Early Church Fathers, and the following 1700 years of Orthodox Tradition, over a stranger on a message board.

[theologygeek]

I never said "Jesus told me in the Bible to cover my head." .

Yes, you did. "Technically, I am also covering because I am "told to" by God, in the Bible."

[Arete]

I don't think some people realize what choice means. Danvillebelle and I are the same Christian denomination. She covers, I do not. In our faith, God loves us both the same. We can be worshipping in the same Liturgy on any given Sunday and one of us will not be seen as better or worse than the other. This isn't "God will strike me dead without a headcover or bless her with one". Sometimes we want outside guide posts as a reminder. Her'a is a headcover, mine is a vegan fast during lent. A lot of us require concrete action as well as theory to live fully within our religious lives. These things are not meant to be a one size fits all.

Oh, and God does not care if I give up a few animal products for 50 days if it does not focus my mind to prayer and alms. For those outside these traditions, you shouldn't care at all because it doesn't affect you. Whether one covers, or the other eats tofu, should have no bearing unless all that talk about women having choices is just talk.

[2xx1xy1JD]

You're not choosing to cover, as much as you want to make this sound like it's a personal choice. If you think that your god is telling you to cover your head, then you are doing it out of obedience. If you tell your kid to make his bed, he is not making it because of a personal choice. He is making it because you told him to and he is obeying you. A personal choice is "Could you do me a favor and make your bed?" A command is "Make your bed." It is time for some Christians, Muslims, and that Sikh woman with a beard (who came right out and said that she does it because her god tells her to), to stop trying to sugar coat what they're doing by making it sound like "it's a personal choice, no big deal, whatever, sometimes I do and sometimes I don't..." I don't know if these people have themselves convinced that it's a personal choice, or if they want others to believe it so they don't have to be questioned about it. But if you are convinced that it's a personal choice, then you don't have to admit that a male head is forcing you to be submissive and telling you that you are low on the totem pole.

I won't argue Christianity with you, but try to ensure that you aren't making unwarranted assumptions about other religious beliefs based on your Christian framework.

In mainstream Christianity, God is explicitly male (ie. the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, plus there's the belief that God impregnates Mary). That's not necessarily the case with other religions.

Other religions which believe in strict monotheism do not have the whole father-son narrative, and believe that God is an eternal, formless entity that is simply beyond physical characteristics or description. So no, it's not accurate for a Jewish, Muslim or Sikh woman to admit that a MALE head is telling her anything, since God is essentially both/neither gender in those religions.

Also, you do realize that the whole no shaving/haircutting thing in the Sikh religion applies equally to males and females, right? How on earth does that make a woman lower on the totem pole?

Finally, the whole notion of God "forcing" things comes from a very specific view of what God is and how religious requirements work, which is not shared by everyone. Some people have a belief in a punitive God, who has a list of requirements and punishes those who disobey. Others have a different understand of God, and see religious rules as being about achieving harmony with God and/or achieving some practical purpose.

[danvillebelle]

Yes, you did. "Technically, I am also covering because I am "told to" by God, in the Bible."

Do you see the quotation marks around "told to?" I was making the distinction between Paul's letters and the actual words of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels, while including them both under the umbrella of inspired.

Though I'm not sure why I'm bothering, as you seem to know much better than I do my own motivation and mind. Carry on.

[Arete]

In Orthodox Christianity, God the eternal is described as made up of both genders and is not exclusively one or the other, he is neither exclusively male or female. The term father is a metaphor, just like the bridegroom or warrior or jealous lover metaphor in the OT. Jesus is male, the Holy Spirit is without gender, and Holy Wisdom is female. Mary conceives by the power of the Holy Spirit, which is again neuter.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Re the original story:

It was interesting. Social interaction, of course, isn't about rights - it's about choosing to communicate with someone we don't know.

I've never been to Chicago, so I read it with a Toronto frame of mind. In Toronto, talking to strangers in a public place verges on taboo.

There are a few exceptions to this general rule.

One exception is that on frigid days, you can complain about the weather. Perhaps that was a bit of a factor?

Another exception is that people will talk if there is an obvious common bond. Two people with babies, for example, can talk. Ditto for two people wearing Leaf's jerseys.

To a certain degree, religious garb CAN be a form of branding. Here, I've seen women start conversations with each other over a hijab or other religious/ethnic item. There are sometimes things that you would only notice if you were part of a group yourself - for example, I noticed some subtle cues that another couple we saw on vacation were Orthodox Jews, but someone else wouldn't think twice about a guy wearing a cap and a woman with especially full hair and a skirt. I responded with a certain amount of subtle branding - using code words that someone would only notice if they were from the same group (because it was dark and I could have been wrong). I think some of this is human nature - I'll notice Canadian accents, and I've had total strangers start deeply personal conversations on the basis of my brand of baby carrier (wrongly assuming that if I wore a Baby Trekker, the answer to "do you vax" would be no). I've even seen East Indian friends suddenly look at my husband differently after they either met his father or saw him with a tan.

[formergothardite]

Danvillebelle if you have daughters, are you okay with them not agreeing with you and not covering? As long as women are not being shamed, girls are not being raised to think God will strike them down if they choose to not cover, and laws are not being passed based on this belief, I just don't see what the big deal is.

[2xx1xy1JD]

In Orthodox Christianity, God the eternal is described as made up of both genders and is not exclusively one or the other, he is neither exclusively male or female. The term father is a metaphor, just like the bridegroom or warrior or jealous lover metaphor in the OT. Jesus is male, the Holy Spirit is without gender, and Holy Wisdom is female. Mary conceives by the power of the Holy Spirit, which is again neuter.

Thanks. I know I'm not an expert on Orthodox Christianity, which is obviously quite different from the Lori/Ken version.

[itsnikki05]

I have smiled at a few women wearing hijabs because we happened to casually make eye contact. They have never failed to smile back. Sometimes I want to ask about the hijab because the scarves actually suit some women's faces very well but I've always been too shy to say anything.( I actually wish that we would all go back to wearing the type of hair exposing, scarves that women wore in the fifties movies but I don't think that will happen. LOL)

Once I passed a large family wearing the Christian fundie attire of long skirts and started to smile but the mother shot me a nasty, disapproving look. It was obvious she didn't want to interact, even with passing smiles at those outside her group.

Funny story, I was at Goodwill one summer day with my daughter. I let her pick out a toy and she picked out a bag of Barbies! She was wearing shorts and a little summer top because dang it was hot!!! She saw a other little girl and decided to say hi! That's just who she is, a very friendly and open little girl. The little girl had on a pretty dress, much like J would wear to church. The mom took one look at what she was wearing, saw me wearing capris, have me a disgusted look and walked away. It really ticked me off, that woman had no idea who we were? I guess pants wearing heathens!! (And shorts. LOL! It was in the upper 90s, y'all!)

[tropaka]

It shouldn't be such a big deal; I'm finding it galling that here, of all places, we've got people firmly clinging to stereotypes (i.e. that all women who cover or dress modestly are abused submissive women and their husbands abusive assholes). Sure, enough people fit that stereotype (or it wouldn't exist and it's amazing that the indicators tend ) but I thought so many more people had moved beyond that. I guess steeping ourselves in the idiot fundies we snark on doesn't really help...

[nausicaa]

But Danvillebelle didn't say she covers her hair because men "have no self control." She didn't even mention modesty. She said that it reminds her to pray and it feels like a blessing for her life.

Danvillebelle said she covers because God tells her to. August gave an example, but the her major point was that she was not going to love someone who told her to cover her head. She finds it demeaning. August, correct me if I got any of that wrong.

[danvillebelle]

Danvillebelle if you have daughters, are you okay with them not agreeing with you and not covering? As long as women are not being shamed, girls are not being raised to think God will strike them down if they choose to not cover, and laws are not being passed based on this belief, I just don't see what the big deal is.

I have two teenage daughters; they do not cover their heads, nor do they dress like me (they wear jeans, I don't). I don't tell them what to wear (outside of anything too revealing, which I don't think they'd choose anyway from what I see of their personal style) nor how to worship or pray. My younger daughter has decided she wants to be baptized with her best friend at the Baptist church where she currently attends and is involved in the youth group and choir. She was baptized Orthodox as an infant, but if she wants to be baptized again as a public expression of her faith, who am I to tell her no? More power to her. She also still has icons in her room and prays from the Orthodox prayer book each night. I think it's beautiful that she finds meaningful expressions for her faith in both traditions.

[formergothardite]

I have two teenage daughters; they do not cover their heads, nor do they dress like me (they wear jeans, I don't). I don't tell them what to wear (outside of anything too revealing, which I don't think they'd choose anyway from what I see of their personal style) nor how to worship or pray. My younger daughter has decided she wants to be baptized with her best friend at the Baptist church where she currently attends and is involved in the youth group and choir. She was baptized Orthodox as an infant, but if she wants to be baptized again as a public expression of her faith, who am I to tell her no? More power to her. She also still has icons in her room and prays from the Orthodox prayer book each night. I think it's beautiful that she finds meaningful expressions for her faith in both traditions.

I don't have any problem(not that you need my approval :lol: ) with you having a personal belief on how God wants you to dress. Unlike the Duggars and many of the other fundies you have raised your daughters so that they feel they can make their own choices and decide for themselves what God wants them to wear. Does anyone think Gil Bates would be okay with his daughters deciding to wear jeans or have different religious beliefs?

[theologygeek]

Do you see the quotation marks around "told to?" I was making the distinction between Paul's letters and the actual words of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels, while including them both under the umbrella of inspired.

Though I'm not sure why I'm bothering, as you seem to know much better than I do my own motivation and mind. Carry on.

What do you think of 1 Corinthians 6:9-10? Do you think that homosexuality is a sin? Do you think that part of Corinthians is also "under the umbrella of inspired" as you do regarding head coverings being applicable for today?

[theologygeek]

Full disclosure: I'm agnostic and do not follow any organized religion, so I can understand a generalized disagreement with people feeling that God "tells" them to do things. I just don't understand having such an issue with this ONE religiously based choice while seemingly ignoring all others. It seems to come back tothe belief that women and their bodies are somehow public property, and being such that their wardrobes are a battleground for ideologies. If you believe that women should have full agency over their bodies--well, that agency is going to lead some women to wear things you wouldn't wear.

Regarding what I bolded....It's not just one choice that I take issue with. A lot of hurt in this world came and still comes from people who misinterpreted Paul's letters to the Corinthians.

[RosyDaisy]

I don't see anything wrong with a woman who wears a head covering because she wants to. I do see something wrong with 1. a god telling women to cover their heads because they are women and 2) a woman thinking that her god told her to cover her head

Yes.

To understand Corinthians 11, is to first study Corinth, and also the behavior of the people there who accepted Jesus. They were acting all kinds of crazy because they thought they had to do various things to be the "godliest." But with that attitude also came ungodly behavior because they thought that they were too high and holy for reproach. Sound familiar? Some things never change. The very people we talk about on this board are clones of the Corinthians. Paul had to stop the free for all and corral them back in. It got so bad that people were suing each other for nonsensical reasons. Not to mention that the rich were partying with their friends in the church hall which resulted in the poor not being able to get in. So Paul implemented rules. Everyone was going to be the same. Sort of like the school board voting on uniforms for students because street clothes were causing a lot of problems. Paul's rules were not the same as being told by God to do something. The problem with some Christians is that they confuse Paul's rules of that day with God's rules. God didn't tell the school board to implement uniforms any more than he told the women of Corinth to wear head coverings. The problem with some people who aren't Christians are the same. They confuse Paul's rules with God's rules. "God hates the gays. He said so in Corinthians. I'm not worshiping a God who hates the gays." Jesus is God. Jesus isn't Paul. Jesus doesn't care what you wear. He said not to judge by appearances.

Uhh...what you just posted is almost word for word what my minister said in Bible class last week. I totally agree with you.

[Arete]

The argument is not that God or Jesus requires a woman to cover her head. It is that some people take on outer manifestations to remind themselves of their inner religious commitments. Seriously, theologygeek, what is the problem here? Neither the Orthodox or Catholicism say that a woman MUST cover her head, or that headcovering is necessary for a Christian woman. Some Christian women, including laity and nuns, do however feel compelled to cover their heads as part of their personal piety. In these traditions, if it is not forbidden, it is permitted. I agree and the Orthodox Church also teaches that Paul was addressing specific problems in specific communities in the 1st century, and therefore it is not a command for all people throughout time. That does not make headcovering out of bounds for the individual believer as part of their personal prayer life. Fasting will not get you into heaven either, but millions of people use it as part of their personal prayer life. It's because we are all individuals in the eyes of God that we test every thing and take practices that help us focus. It's got nothing to do with who is the most modest, or holiest, or best Christian. It has to do with how each individual tries to make their communion with God a part of their lives.

[latraviata]

The argument is not that God or Jesus requires a woman to cover her head. It is that some people take on outer manifestations to remind themselves of their inner religious commitments. Seriously, theologygeek, what is the problem here? Neither the Orthodox or Catholicism say that a woman MUST cover her head, or that headcovering is necessary for a Christian woman. Some Christian women, including laity and nuns, do however feel compelled to cover their heads as part of their personal piety. In these traditions, if it is not forbidden, it is permitted. I agree and the Orthodox Church also teaches that Paul was addressing specific problems in specific communities in the 1st century, and therefore it is not a command for all people throughout time. That does not make headcovering out of bounds for the individual believer as part of their personal prayer life. Fasting will not get you into heaven either, but millions of people use it as part of their personal prayer life. It's because we are all individuals in the eyes of God that we test every thing and take practices that help us focus. It's got nothing to do with who is the most modest, or holiest, or best Christian. It has to do with how each individual tries to make their communion with God a part of their lives.

When I was young about a 150 years ago, before the Vatican concilie (Concilium Oecumenicum Vaticanum Secundum) We (women) were obliged to cover our heads in church.

[Arete]

When I was young about a 150 years ago, before the Vatican concilie (Concilium Oecumenicum Vaticanum Secundum) We (women) were obliged to cover our heads in church.

Oh yeah, in the Greek Orthodox Church women were wearing hats or headcoverings into the 1960s. However, we never had a council about it. In the 70s most of them just stopped. They practice had also stopped independently in the diaspora. Even though she knew she could, my grandmother who died 2 years ago never went to church without a hat and gloves, ingrained habit. When we went with her, we NEVER had hats or headcoverings, and she never remarked on that.

[Coconut Flan]

Yes, because back in the 50s and even into the 60s at least in some areas most women wore hats or some head covering to church. The hats and gloves were required for teas and other social gatherings especially the ones during daylight hours. When I was a child I had to wear a hat and gloves to church. It took my mother a long time to give that one up.

The mainline protestants may have been the first groups to give up the hats, but it was a general societal move away from the more rigid formality.

[latraviata]

Oh yeah, in the Greek Orthodox Church women were wearing hats or headcoverings into the 1960s. However, we never had a council about it. In the 70s most of them just stopped. They practice had also stopped independently in the diaspora. Even though she knew she could, my grandmother who died 2 years ago never went to church without a hat and gloves, ingrained habit. When we went with her, we NEVER had hats or headcoverings, and she never remarked on that.

I remember my mother's very elegant heads as well! We (her daughters) covered our heads with tiny, tiny stamp sized folded scarves......during the hols we wore a sort of lace mantilla thing. I am glad it is all over!