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Muslim Woman: discovers treated better without hijab.


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I think I was pointing out that it happens, not that it was acceptable.

Okay then, we're more on the same page than I thought. :)

I just took your comment "If you don't want to be seen as a crip, don't wear their colors" as suggesting that all of the negative effects of what one wears are the wearer's fault, and that the assumptions of others should always be taken as accurate. I can state first hand that they are not. Because I'm tall, I tend to wear skirts since they fit better. Because I'm shy I tend to wear longer skirts and cover up more. Add in my long wavy hair and little make up, and I could fit right in appearance-wise at Big Sandy. People often think I am very religious. Suffice to say, I am not (and I loathe slut shaming and the modesty movement).

I'm also fond of wearing the colors red and blue. I am neither a Blood nor a Crip.

Edited for riffles

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there are very few women who completely cover in North America - the woman in the OP wore hijab.

I know, but on a previous day's post I wrote about the distinction I personally feel about complete face cover as opposed to hijab, and the conversation went to why we make the snap decisions we do with certain dress.

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What is the difference between being part of a head-covering community made up of Muslims and a head covering community made up of Christians?

The discussion for and against wearing hijab (or more complete coverings) sounds the same as the Christian debates for women covering the head. The belief net article even includes discussions of men "averting their gaze" which is what the whole Duggar "Nike" thing is about, as well as the writings of many other Christian fundies we mock here.

.iisna.com/articles/pamphlets/the-hijab-reflections-by-muslim-women/

beliefnet.com/Faiths/Islam/Galleries/Why-the-Hijab.aspx?p=2

I never said that there was a difference between head-covering Muslim communities and head-covering Christian communities? I don't think I even used the word "Christian" once in my post, did I?

I said that there is a difference between a woman who covers her head within a community and a woman who covers specifically to be countercultural (examples: Lina, Jacque and Jocelyn Dixon), especially when they go on to blog about how it makes them so extra holy and special and better than others in their religious tradition.

A woman who is from a head-covering culture is likely to have many layers of reasoning for her covering. Some reasons might be religious, but she also is going to perceive the head-covering as "normal." She may be uncomfortable without it. She may wear it to feel connected to her family and her background. I know several Middle Eastern women who are not super religious, but still feel weird without a covering. They are not getting dressed in the morning hoping to send a message to the Westerners around them. They certainly did not start covering their heads in order to "stand out" -- for majority of their lives, head coverings were a way to blend in.

I'm not arguing about what the "official" meaning behind religious coverings is. The official meaning for a group and the actual meaning for an individual woman can differ. Saying that every woman who covers is on board with all of its religious implications is like saying that all people who celebrate Christmas believe that God incarnate was literally born of a virgin to save a sinful world from damnation.

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I do not consider covering a woman's face in a western society to be just like any other fashion choice. First off, as much as we speak of respecting all expression, some respect has to be given to the culture in which you live. In the west, hiding your face has always been considered a taboo in social relations.

It's actually a political statement as well, the more I think about it.

In Scotland we have Section 60 orders which prevent you covering your face at certain times and in certain places. I've fallen foul of these myself because I cover my face on certain protests (imagine having coppers charge at you yelling "FUCKING SECTION SIXTY!" It's about as fun as that sounds.) However Section 60 never applies to clothing worn for a religious reason.

I've actually overheard coppers arguing about asking a niqabi woman to disrobe (it was a protest about Gaza which became somewhat unfriendly to the polis). They decided they couldn't do it as it would make the crowd angry. However, they could have done it to me, because I had covered on that particular protest (and indeed they did).

I feel slightly weird about this. Granted I don't walk the streets with a scarf over my face and a hoodie pulled down, but sometimes I feel the need to do it. I can't, because it's illegal if a section 60 order is in place. However, a woman in niqab is fine, although being dressed in all black and wearing a black niqab is also a political statement. This is a bit confusing.

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I just don't get why people care so much about what I wear on my head. I don't do it for anyone else, I do itbecause I believe I'm told to wear it in the Quran, hut everyone needs to make that decision themselves.

Why would you want to worship a god who tells you to cover your head?

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Why would you want to worship a god who tells you to cover your head?

I don't belong to a religious group that practices head covering, but I don't see why on earth it would be some deal breaker regarding faith.it isn't harmful to anyone else, so if someone feels it's part of their religious doctoring, or just that it shows greater respect, or makes them feel more focused in their faith...what possible harm does it cause?

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Why would you want to worship a god who tells you to cover your head?

I honestly can't give you a better answer than I choose to. That I studied many religions before I converted to Islam and it most fit with what I already believed. I like covering my head, though. I have many funky scarves and it is one of the aspects of my faith that I really do like and agree with - FOR ME. I would never force it on someone else and fundametalky disagree with those that would.

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Why would you want to worship a god who tells you to cover your head?

I honestly can't give you a better answer than I choose to. That I studied many religions before I converted to Islam and it most fit with what I already believed. I like covering my head, though. I have many funky scarves and it is one of the aspects of my faith that I really do like and agree with - FOR ME. I would never force it on someone else and fundametalky disagree with those that would.

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I don't belong to a religious group that practices head covering, but I don't see why on earth it would be some deal breaker regarding faith.it isn't harmful to anyone else, so if someone feels it's part of their religious doctoring, or just that it shows greater respect, or makes them feel more focused in their faith...what possible harm does it cause?

It would be a deal breaker for me. I want a god who cares about what's in my heart, and not what's on my head. Canbritam said that she's told to wear a head covering, and that is why she does it. I'd like to know why she wants to worship a god who tells her to cover her head. It's an honest question.

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Why would you want to worship a god who tells you to cover your head?

You didn't ask me, but I cover (I'm Christian, not Muslim) so I'm going to answer anyway.

I cover my head for the same reason that I do everything else I do with Christ in mind; because I love Him, because He first loved me. It really is that simple.

I'm not covering thinking about you or anyone else I see and how much holier I am than them, no matter how much some might want to believe that. I cover because I studied it out in depth for myself 17 years ago and it is a blessing in my life when I do it. It reminds me to pray. That's it. If I were the only person left on earth who covered, I would still do it and I still wouldn't be judging anyone who didn't.

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I honestly can't give you a better answer than I choose to. That I studied many religions before I converted to Islam and it most fit with what I already believed. I like covering my head, though. I have many funky scarves and it is one of the aspects of my faith that I really do like and agree with - FOR ME. I would never force it on someone else and fundametalky disagree with those that would.

That's not what you said before though. You said "I do it because I believe I'm told to wear it in the Quaran."

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You didn't ask me, but I cover (I'm Christian, not Muslim) so I'm going to answer anyway.

I cover my head for the same reason that I do everything else I do with Christ in mind; because I love Him, because He first loved me. It really is that simple.

I'm not covering thinking about you or anyone else I see and how much holier I am than them, no matter how much some might want to believe that. I cover because I studied it out in depth for myself 17 years ago and it is a blessing in my life when I do it. It reminds me to pray. That's it. If I were the only person left on earth who covered, I would still do it and I still wouldn't be judging anyone who didn't.

I don't see anything wrong with someone who covers her head because it reminds her to pray. I do see something wrong with a woman who covers her head because she thinks she is told to by her god. Just curious, but what did you study in depth 17 years ago to bring you to the conclusion that you made?

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I don't see anything wrong with someone who covers her head because it reminds her to pray. I do see something wrong with a woman who covers her head because she thinks she is told to by her god. Just curious, but what did you study in depth 17 years ago to bring you to the conclusion that you made?

Why do you see something wrong with it? Technically, I am also covering because I am "told to" by God, in the Bible. How is my decision to wear a piece of clothing on my head affecting you or anyone else in any way at all?Would you ask the same question of an Orthodox Jewish woman wearing a sheitl or a nun wearing a habit?

I studied 1 Corinthians 11:1-16 in depth, using various commentaries and sources from throughout Christian history from the very beginning to the present. Also I am Orthodox and it was the norm in the parish where I converted to be covered during services (though I had come to my own conclusions and made the decision to cover while I was still Protestant). There have been periods of time where I stopped wearing it, but I always end up coming back to it and am most content and peaceful when I do.

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That's not what you said before though. You said "I do it because I believe I'm told to wear it in the Quaran."

But to me those two answers are the same. I wear it because it says in the Quran for the believing women to cover, and I am a believing woman who also happens to enjoy that aspect of the faith that I choose. I do it because we're commanded to but in no way do I feel forced to, by God or anyone else as there is also the line in the Quran that states "there is no compulsion in religion.". To me, we're called to do if, but you can choose not to, but I choose to do it, a choice I made all by myself as every woman should. I will argue for the rights of those who choose not to and are having someone try and force them to wear it just as much as I will for those of us that choose to do it and have people trying to make us take it off.

ETA: my covering is also a physical reminder to me of how my behaviour should be, a reminder for me to at least attempt to do my five daily prayers (I really suck at that part) and that hijab is more than just the scarf. To

Me it is an entire way of being.

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Why do you see something wrong with it? Technically, I am also covering because I am "told to" by God, in the Bible. How is my decision to wear a piece of clothing on my head affecting you or anyone else in any way at all?Would you ask the same question of an Orthodox Jewish woman wearing a sheitl or a nun wearing a habit?

I studied 1 Corinthians 11:1-16 in depth, using various commentaries and sources from throughout Christian history from the very beginning to the present. Also I am Orthodox and it was the norm in the parish where I converted to be covered during services (though I had come to my own conclusions and made the decision to cover while I was still Protestant). There have been periods of time where I stopped wearing it, but I always end up coming back to it and am most content and peaceful when I do.

This explains very eloquently much of what I have tried to say.

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Why do you see something wrong with it? Technically, I am also covering because I am "told to" by God, in the Bible. How is my decision to wear a piece of clothing on my head affecting you or anyone else in any way at all?

I don't see anything wrong with a woman who wears a head covering because she wants to. I do see something wrong with 1. a god telling women to cover their heads because they are women and 2) a woman thinking that her god told her to cover her head

Would you ask the same question of an Orthodox Jewish woman wearing a sheitl or a nun wearing a habit?.

Yes.

I studied 1 Corinthians 11:1-16 in depth, using various commentaries and sources from throughout Christian history from the very beginning to the present. .

To understand Corinthians 11, is to first study Corinth, and also the behavior of the people there who accepted Jesus. They were acting all kinds of crazy because they thought they had to do various things to be the "godliest." But with that attitude also came ungodly behavior because they thought that they were too high and holy for reproach. Sound familiar? Some things never change. The very people we talk about on this board are clones of the Corinthians. Paul had to stop the free for all and corral them back in. It got so bad that people were suing each other for nonsensical reasons. Not to mention that the rich were partying with their friends in the church hall which resulted in the poor not being able to get in. So Paul implemented rules. Everyone was going to be the same. Sort of like the school board voting on uniforms for students because street clothes were causing a lot of problems. Paul's rules were not the same as being told by God to do something. The problem with some Christians is that they confuse Paul's rules of that day with God's rules. God didn't tell the school board to implement uniforms any more than he told the women of Corinth to wear head coverings. The problem with some people who aren't Christians are the same. They confuse Paul's rules with God's rules. "God hates the gays. He said so in Corinthians. I'm not worshiping a God who hates the gays." Jesus is God. Jesus isn't Paul. Jesus doesn't care what you wear. He said not to judge by appearances.

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I don't see anything wrong with a woman who wears a head covering because she wants to. I do see something wrong with 1. a god telling women to cover their heads because they are women and 2) a woman thinking that her god told her to cover her head

Yes.

To understand Corinthians 11, is to first study Corinth, and also the behavior of the people there who accepted Jesus. They were acting all kinds of crazy because they thought they had to do various things to be the "godliest." But with that attitude also came ungodly behavior because they thought that they were too high and holy for reproach. Sound familiar? Some things never change. The very people we talk about on this board are clones of the Corinthians. Paul had to stop the free for all and corral them back in. It got so bad that people were suing each other for nonsensical reasons. Not to mention that the rich were partying with their friends in the church hall which resulted in the poor not being able to get in. So Paul implemented rules. Everyone was going to be the same. Sort of like the school board voting on uniforms for students because street clothes were causing a lot of problems. Paul's rules were not the same as being told by God to do something. The problem with some Christians is that they confuse Paul's rules of that day with God's rules. God didn't tell the school board to implement uniforms any more than he told the women of Corinth to wear head coverings. The problem with some people who aren't Christians are the same. They confuse Paul's rules with God's rules. "God hates the gays. He said so in Corinthians. I'm not worshiping a God who hates the gays." Jesus is God. Jesus isn't Paul. Jesus doesn't care what you wear. He said not to judge by appearances.

That's an interesting take on it.

For me, limiting it solely to Corinth falls apart both in the greeting of the letter and the second half of chapter 11. Also, if it were simply a case of "you all are misbehaving and so we are going to implement this rule", then why didn't he just say that instead of making the universal illustration of the headship order from the beginning of creation (God-Christ-Man-Woman)?

Saying "they confuse Paul's rules with God's rules" tells me that you don't consider Paul's letters to be inspired or as inspired as Christ's words as recorded in the Gospels; as an Orthodox Christian I agree to disagree, agreeably. I don't pull each of Paul's letters out and study it and accept it or reject it in isolation; I try to relate it to Scripture and Tradition as a whole, including the Gospels.

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Focusing on the Christian side of headcovering, instead of the Muslim practice as I haven't read any of their text, I think it is beautiful if a woman wants to do it. I think it can become legalistic if they focus too much of having more of their head covered than the next girl, if it has to be a solid colour, only white or black, etc, which isn't good. Christians are obviously not perfect, but I think are also to try and be good people and please God. God will love you no matter what, but if you can do something to please Him and a women thinks that headcovering will, then there is nothing wrong with it, just like wearing a cover as a reminder to pray, or as a reminder to have faith. I don't think God cares what you wear ultimately, but if a woman interprets a passage and think it says she should cover and she decides to do so, then it's not hurting anyone either, but I also don't think it is sinning if a woman doesn't cover.

I have personally looked over the aforementioned passage in Corinthians, and agree that it says a women should cover her head while praying. Personally, I wear a cover while going to church, and I would wear one if I went to a prayer meeting or some such thing. I don't think I am better than anyone, but I do think it is a beautiful custom and I think it's kind of sad that it, as well as wearing skirts and dresses has gone to the wayside. I didn't grow up wearing skirts only or headcovering, but I chose it for myself.

I am not a fundamentalist, and I don't tell people what to wear. I guess I am just old fashioned in certain customs that I like.

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You didn't ask me, but I cover (I'm Christian, not Muslim) so I'm going to answer anyway.

I cover my head for the same reason that I do everything else I do with Christ in mind; because I love Him, because He first loved me. It really is that simple.

I'm not covering thinking about you or anyone else I see and how much holier I am than them, no matter how much some might want to believe that. I cover because I studied it out in depth for myself 17 years ago and it is a blessing in my life when I do it. It reminds me to pray. That's it. If I were the only person left on earth who covered, I would still do it and I still wouldn't be judging anyone who didn't.

I love my husband. He loves me. I love him because he would never tell me to be ashamed of my body, or make excuses for men who have no self control when they see my hair. Would I love a person who told me I was worth less than others, no matter how much they loved me first? No. Fucking. Way.

Even if you love me, I won't love you unless you deserve it (my kids exempted, of course).

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I love my husband. He loves me. I love him because he would never tell me to be ashamed of my body, or make excuses for men who have no self control when they see my hair. Would I love a person who told me I was worth less than others, no matter how much they loved me first? No. Fucking. Way.

Even if you love me, I won't love you unless you deserve it (my kids exempted, of course).

Exactly. Yes, yes, yes.

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I love my husband. He loves me. I love him because he would never tell me to be ashamed of my body, or make excuses for men who have no self control when they see my hair. Would I love a person who told me I was worth less than others, no matter how much they loved me first? No. Fucking. Way.

Even if you love me, I won't love you unless you deserve it (my kids exempted, of course).

But Danvillebelle didn't say she covers her hair because men "have no self control." She didn't even mention modesty. She said that it reminds her to pray and it feels like a blessing for her life.

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I love my husband. He loves me. I love him because he would never tell me to be ashamed of my body, or make excuses for men who have no self control when they see my hair. Would I love a person who told me I was worth less than others, no matter how much they loved me first? No. Fucking. Way.

Even if you love me, I won't love you unless you deserve it (my kids exempted, of course).

I'm not ashamed of my body, I don't cover because I think men have no self-control if they see my hair (I still go out sometimes without a scarf), and I don't believe God thinks I'm worth less than anyone else. No matter how much some might want to make it so, choosing to cover does not = shame or low self-esteem.

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That's an interesting take on it.

For me, limiting it solely to Corinth falls apart both in the greeting of the letter and the second half of chapter 11. Also, if it were simply a case of "you all are misbehaving and so we are going to implement this rule", then why didn't he just say that instead of making the universal illustration of the headship order from the beginning of creation (God-Christ-Man-Woman)?

Saying "they confuse Paul's rules with God's rules" tells me that you don't consider Paul's letters to be inspired or as inspired as Christ's words as recorded in the Gospels; as an Orthodox Christian I agree to disagree, agreeably. I don't pull each of Paul's letters out and study it and accept it or reject it in isolation; I try to relate it to Scripture and Tradition as a whole, including the Gospels.

Paul followed the OT rule that stated that if something came from God, then the person had to state that it did. This is why he "didn't just say that instead of..." When it came from God, he said so. When it didn't come from God, he didn't need to. However, to make himself crystal clear (which is about as clear as mud because there is still debating over the letters), Paul would take the time to reinforce what didn't come from God. An example in Corinthians would be when Paul said that he was not speaking from a commandment, but rather from his own advice. Remember, that OT rule said to state when it came from the Lord. It didn't say "but you have to state when it doesn't come from the Lord too."

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I love my husband. He loves me. I love him because he would never tell me to be ashamed of my body, or make excuses for men who have no self control when they see my hair. Would I love a person who told me I was worth less than others, no matter how much they loved me first? No. Fucking. Way.

Even if you love me, I won't love you unless you deserve it (my kids exempted, of course).

But Danvillebelle didn't say she covers her hair because men "have no self control." She didn't even mention modesty. She said that it reminds her to pray and it feels like a blessing for her life.

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But Danvillebelle didn't say she covers her hair because men "have no self control." She didn't even mention modesty. She said that it reminds her to pray and it feels like a blessing for her life.

Danvillebelle said she covers because God tells her to. August gave an example, but the her major point was that she was not going to love someone who told her to cover her head. She finds it demeaning. August, correct me if I got any of that wrong.

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