Muslim Woman: discovers treated better without hijab.

[Aurora rising]

The whole point of visible religious dress is to say "I am set apart." which is part of the fundie fascination with head coverings and the many variations of skirts only. I suspect all groups who wear obvious religious garb would be treated in a much less guarded way when they are not wearing the garb than when they are.

No, it is not. Well, not for all. You always have people who think they are better than everybody because of religion / status / money / skin color.

But: I´m wearing a headscarf. I don´t do it because I want to be special. I do it because I think it is important for my faith, for me. And for me alone. Whatever my sisters are wearing - I don´t care, their choice.

I find it very rude to argue with this cliche, to be honest.

[16strong]

I have very little experience meeting Muslims, but I remember going to Joann's a few years ago (No Hobby Lobby in town, ha!) and seeing a fundie woman and her daughter wearing head coverings and homemade frumpers. I was wearing a long bohemian-style skirt and a rather immodest tank top. The woman stopped me in the parking lot to...compliment my shoes (and ask me where I got them!), lol. And for some reason I came away feeling very self-conscious about my shirt. Really bizarre experience, but she seemed very nice.

[salex]

"Aurora rising"]

No, it is not. Well, not for all. You always have people who think they are better than everybody because of religion / status / money / skin color.

So, you think that having a dress code that visibly defines people as a member of a specific group with specific beliefs is not a way to define and set people apart?

But: I´m wearing a headscarf. I don´t do it because I want to be special. I do it because I think it is important for my faith, for me. And for me alone. Whatever my sisters are wearing - I don´t care, their choice.

Then a couple of questions for you:

Certainly you don't do the scarf just for yourself--isn't God involved somehow? If you do it because you think it is key in your relationship with God, then it puts religious significance on the scarf that is not there when I wear a bandana or scarf. This differentiates the act of wearing the scarf from a secular wearing of one, which sets the action apart.

Secondly You say that it is important to your faith. If it is important in your faith, then doesn't that set you apart from people that wearing a scarf is not important?

You say that you don't care about what others wear... it is their choice. So, in real terms what does that mean?

Does it mean that you believe some women, such as yourself, are called specifically to wear a scarf but others lack this calling so don't have to wear a scarf? Does it mean that your level of faith requires this symbol or that this symbol is a way to indicate your level of faith?

Does it mean that you believe that other women have also been called, but they fail to heed the call, and it is not your problem (mote and log, or seed on rocky soil sort of thing)

If it is not important for others, why is it important for you? Or are you just saying it is their choice to be apostate/disobedient and their problem between them and God?

I find it very rude to argue with this cliche, to be honest.

The woman in the original article said she was more openly received by people outside her core group when they didn't recognize her as a member of the group that wear the religious garb she wears. She also pointed out that she was treated worse by member of her core group (the taxi drivers) when they didn't recognize her as a member of their group because they couldn't see her garb. Again, part of being "set apart."

To suggest that religiously based clothing, hair styles, and other visible choices are not in part used to publicly define a person as part of a specific group seems to be kidding oneself. Specific dress-- of a denomination, a team, a gang, etc act as a key to the in-group and as a defining announcement to people outside the in-group who the wearer affiliates with.

If you don't want to be seen as a crip, don't wear their colors.

[August]

Umm.....what? Have you considered they aren't making a statement about you or your society, but are just dressing as they believe is appropriate?

Have you ever read writings by fundies?

[tropaka]

Have you ever read writings by fundies?

You have to keep in mind that not all fundies are assholes (Tabby comes to mind - she doesn't seem to judge other peoples' choices). When I see a woman in full niqab I have no clue if she's wearing it by choice, if she feel it's necessary to her faith, if she's from a country where it was common, or if she's got a jerk of a husband who wouldn't let her out of the house without it. Same thing when I see women who could either be Christian fundies or just hippyish. I saw a teen girl in full covering the other day (although she had jeans poking out from underneath the skirt, her face was covered), in a mall, with a group of girls who included non musims and a few other hijabi. Would people steer clear in this case too?

[snarktastic]

I'm from SE England so treat hijabis exactly the same as everyone other stranger.

NO EYE CONTACT DON'T SMILE DON'T FOR GOD'S SAKE GET INTO A CONVERSATION OR EVERYONE WILL THINK I'M A WEIRDO :lol:

Sad but true.

[Mama Mia]

"Aurora rising"]

So, you think that having a dress code that visibly defines people as a member of a specific group with specific beliefs is not a way to define and set people apart?

Then a couple of questions for you:

Certainly you don't do the scarf just for yourself--isn't God involved somehow? If you do it because you think it is key in your relationship with God, then it puts religious significance on the scarf that is not there when I wear a bandana or scarf. This differentiates the act of wearing the scarf from a secular wearing of one, which sets the action apart.

Secondly You say that it is important to your faith. If it is important in your faith, then doesn't that set you apart from people that wearing a scarf is not important?

You say that you don't care about what others wear... it is their choice. So, in real terms what does that mean?

Does it mean that you believe some women, such as yourself, are called specifically to wear a scarf but others lack this calling so don't have to wear a scarf? Does it mean that your level of faith requires this symbol or that this symbol is a way to indicate your level of faith?

Does it mean that you believe that other women have also been called, but they fail to heed the call, and it is not your problem (mote and log, or seed on rocky soil sort of thing)

If it is not important for others, why is it important for you? Or are you just saying it is their choice to be apostate/disobedient and their problem between them and God?

The woman in the original article said she was more openly received by people outside her core group when they didn't recognize her as a member of the group that wear the religious garb she wears. She also pointed out that she was treated worse by member of her core group (the taxi drivers) when they didn't recognize her as a member of their group because they couldn't see her garb. Again, part of being "set apart."

To suggest that religiously based clothing, hair styles, and other visible choices are not in part used to publicly define a person as part of a specific group seems to be kidding oneself. Specific dress-- of a denomination, a team, a gang, etc act as a key to the in-group and as a defining announcement to people outside the in-group who the wearer affiliates with.

If you don't want to be seen as a crip, don't wear their colors.

So what are you suggesting......that everyone wear an identical uniform ( including a specific hairstyle ) so that no assumptions can be made about their social/ religous/philosophical leanings? Because that is really the only logical choice. Religous dress tells you possibly one thing about a person, what their religion is. It doesn't tell you if they are an introvert or an extrovert, if they like sports or prefer art, if they have 2 children or 12, or anything else about them as an actual person.

[tropaka]

If you don't want to be seen as a crip, don't wear their colors.

Missed that, but wtf?

[singsingsing]

Women who wear hijab are women like all others, not some hive mind intent on separating themselves or making some statement about the society they live in.... I don't know, I live in a place with a high Muslim population so I rarely go a day without seeing women wearing hijab, but I don't even really notice it. I can tell you that there's a wide spectrum of women who wear hijab. Some wear tight jeans and shirts and lots of makeup, some dress very modestly and plainly, and everything in between. Some of the women are obviously suffering under stifling misogynistic behaviour from their husbands or fathers, others are clearly free to do as they choose. Some of the women I know who dress most conservatively are the most educated, ambitious, and independent.

[salex]

So what are you suggesting......that everyone wear an identical uniform ( including a specific hairstyle ) so that no assumptions can be made about their social/ religous/philosophical leanings? Because that is really the only logical choice. Religous dress tells you possibly one thing about a person, what their religion is. It doesn't tell you if they are an introvert or an extrovert, if they like sports or prefer art, if they have 2 children or 12, or anything else about them as an actual person.

No, actually, I'm saying that when a person chooses to wear religious garb, they are making a religious statement. Why they chose the garb... forced, heard a voice from God, tradition, want to be part of a group or be known as not part of another one is their own thing. But to pretend that it has no meaning, when serious religion-- so serious that it makes a person dress in an unusual/different way from the rest of their culture -- is to be disingenuous.

As far as my suggesting everyone dress alike, I thought I was making the point that everyone should dress whatever way they want to but to realize that how we dress is part of the communication model as we interact with others. Stereotypical or not, some clothing sends a message (re my examples) it does not give a detailed description of the person, but it does tell us something. A mink coat, a team jacket, a wedding ring, droopy jeans or head covering all convey something to the people who see the wearer. Not everything--even long conversations won't tell everything.

Frankly, walking past most people on the street, I don't know or care if they are an introvert or an extrovert, if they like art if they have children or how many, or anything else about them as an actual person.... and frankly, walking through a shopping mall or in a crowd of people on the street, I don't care about any of those things. Do you care about those things from the dozens/hundreds of strangers you run across in a day? So why should I care more or less about the details about the people I run into who are in religious garb?

I'm all for people wearing whatever they want, but no one should be surprised if what they wear is one of the early ways people form opinions about them. If I wore a seahawks jersey to a superbowl party, it may be that it was a gift from my mother, but people'e initial thought would be I was for the seahawks. For me to be surpised or pissy about that, or whine that they didn't get to know me before they made that assumption would be silly on my part.

[salex]

Missed that, but wtf?

It goes with the example I used in the previous sentence....

To suggest that religiously based clothing, hair styles, and other visible choices are not in part used to publicly define a person as part of a specific group seems to be kidding oneself. Specific dress-- of a denomination, a team, a gang, etc act as a key to the in-group and as a defining announcement to people outside the in-group who the wearer affiliates with.

If you don't want to be seen as a crip, don't wear their colors.

[dawbs]

stupid computer ate my response...this was better written on take 1, but, eh, try again.

The entire above discussion also misses the places where culture and religion cross.

I don't really have clothing that identifies me as a straight, white, mainstream person--because I'm 'privileged' enough that what I wear is 'mainstream'.

But if, say, I came from a religious tradition where women since my great-great-great grandmother's time, wore tan shoes with pink shoelaces and a polka dot vest, then deciding not to don that apparel would have an extra level of...'stuff'.

Because assuming I left that religion, that doesn't change the fact that it's still my culture.

Heck, assume I have a tense relationship with my parents/grandparents (especially if I were young enough to be dependent on them), it might not be an option for safety reasons.

Assume I have an awesome relationship w/ my parents/grandparents...I still might not be ready to 'out' myself as apostate to them.

Assume I have an awesome relationship w/ my a grandma who passed on--I may find those pink shoelaces really help me feel connected to her and to my culture, even if I'm no longer a part of that religion.

Putting aside part of a religion doesn't mean that people should have to put aside all relics of their religion/culture/etc in order to appease the people who assign a different value to those relics.

[tropaka]

Holy crap, there's a huge difference between people who wear religious symbols or wear religious clothes with those who wear sport wear or gang colours. Do you really want to compare the coverings worn by nuns, muslim or christian women with known out-law groups?

[Aurora rising]

So, you think that having a dress code that visibly defines people as a member of a specific group with specific beliefs is not a way to define and set people apart?

I´ll try to answer all your questions - but I´m not a native speaker so please excuse any funny grammar.

Maybe it´s a way to define - but for me it´s not a way to set people apart. It´s nice to get a greeting from a complete stranger just because of what I wear. But this could happen with red shoes as well.

Then a couple of questions for you:

Certainly you don't do the scarf just for yourself--isn't God involved somehow? If you do it because you think it is key in your relationship with God, then it puts religious significance on the scarf that is not there when I wear a bandana or scarf. This differentiates the act of wearing the scarf from a secular wearing of one, which sets the action apart.

Yes, of course Allah is involved. BUT I don´t think it´s a must to wear the scarf. I like it, but a some days I don´t wear it because I just don´t feel like it. Some days I wear it because it´s too hot / too cold / bad hairday. And I can still have MY relationship with God.

For me, my scarf is only this - a piece of clothes, nothing more, nothing less. People like you put a religious significance to it.

Secondly You say that it is important to your faith. If it is important in your faith, then doesn't that set you apart from people that wearing a scarf is not important?

Why should it? Is it my business what other people think about their faith? No, it´s not.

You say that you don't care about what others wear... it is their choice. So, in real terms what does that mean?

Does it mean that you believe some women, such as yourself, are called specifically to wear a scarf but others lack this calling so don't have to wear a scarf? Does it mean that your level of faith requires this symbol or that this symbol is a way to indicate your level of faith?

Does it mean that you believe that other women have also been called, but they fail to heed the call, and it is not your problem (mote and log, or seed on rocky soil sort of thing)

If it is not important for others, why is it important for you? Or are you just saying it is their choice to be apostate/disobedient and their problem between them and God?

No, it means what I said: I don´t care what other people wear. And if I judge other people because of their clothing - than it´s MY problem, not theirs. Your clothes doesn´t say anything about your heart and your intentions.

The woman in the original article said she was more openly received by people outside her core group when they didn't recognize her as a member of the group that wear the religious garb she wears. She also pointed out that she was treated worse by member of her core group (the taxi drivers) when they didn't recognize her as a member of their group because they couldn't see her garb. Again, part of being "set apart."

To suggest that religiously based clothing, hair styles, and other visible choices are not in part used to publicly define a person as part of a specific group seems to be kidding oneself. Specific dress-- of a denomination, a team, a gang, etc act as a key to the in-group and as a defining announcement to people outside the in-group who the wearer affiliates with.

In my opinion the woman didn´t say that the taxi driver treated her worse - they treated her better, when they saw her hijab. When she came "without", they just treated her like a regular costumer. What´s wrong with that? If I have to see how bad some people treat women just because they have a scarf on their head, I would treat them extra-nice in my taxi as well.

And how can you compare a gang with a religion???

All your questions just wanted to proof that I think I´m special. I´m not and I don´t think bad from any other human being just because of some stuff on their heads (or not). What´s in the head is important and you should maybe re-think your opinions because your passive-aggressive questions are not really "neutral".

[salex]

I´ll try to answer all your questions - but I´m not a native speaker so please excuse any funny grammar.

Maybe it´s a way to define - but for me it´s not a way to set people apart. It´s nice to get a greeting from a complete stranger just because of what I wear. But this could happen with red shoes as well.

Yes, of course Allah is involved. BUT I don´t think it´s a must to wear the scarf. I like it, but a some days I don´t wear it because I just don´t feel like it. Some days I wear it because it´s too hot / too cold / bad hairday. And I can still have MY relationship with God.

For me, my scarf is only this - a piece of clothes, nothing more, nothing less. People like you put a religious significance to it.

I will say that my previous post to you was based on a slight misunderstanding... you said you wore a scarf, which given the conversation I took to mean you wore religious headcovering every day like this woman-- joyfulchristianhomemaking.com/ . If your scarf is more a fashion accessory that you wear when you feel like it and not when you don't, that is a different context. I am now thinking about the idea of wearing religious garb just when it is cold or on bad hair days, so I"m not sure what kind of scarf you are talking about, at this point. You said it was important to your faith... now it is just a greasy hair cover.

Why should it? Is it my business what other people think about their faith? No, it´s not.

No, it means what I said: I don´t care what other people wear. And if I judge other people because of their clothing - than it´s MY problem, not theirs. Your clothes doesn´t say anything about your heart and your intentions.

These questions were not meant to be neutral. They were based on my understanding that you wore religious head covering for religious reasons but didn't think it was important if others did. I thought that was disingenuous and still would, if that were the situation. It is not. Now, my question is more "if you wear scarves based on your own choices, how is God involved in it in the day to day? I mean, bad hair scarf vs religious scarf seem like very different approaches. I am reminded of the little box of lace squares that some Christian churches kept (some still do) just outside the sanctuary for women who forgot their head covering. If I just grabbed one to wear to the store when my hair wouldn't lay down, people might still see it as a religious statement. (or that i'm nuts...)

[August]

Holy crap, there's a huge difference between people who wear religious symbols or wear religious clothes with those who wear sport wear or gang colours. Do you really want to compare the coverings worn by nuns, muslim or christian women with known out-law groups?

I think you'll find christians, muslims and jews all cling to times and examples of when they were outlaw groups and their clothing or practices set them apart.

Just like a visible tattoo or a pair of cherry red docs or a full face of makeup or a carefully relaxed hairstyle or a mantilla or a beard make statements about who you identify with. My ponytail, Tshirt and jeans may be a mainstream statement but they are a statement. And the person in high heels, coiffed hair and business suit walking towards me reads those signals just as I read theirs.

[tropaka]

I think you'll find christians, muslims and jews all cling to times and examples of when they were outlaw groups and their clothing or practices set them apart.

Just like a visible tattoo or a pair of cherry red docs or a full face of makeup or a carefully relaxed hairstyle or a mantilla or a beard make statements about who you identify with. My ponytail, Tshirt and jeans may be a mainstream statement but they are a statement. And the person in high heels, coiffed hair and business suit walking towards me reads those signals just as I read theirs.

Sorry but being the outsider or persecuted due to religion is a very different thing than wearing gang colours; one was separated because their belief system was different, the other is organized crime. Sheesh. Yes, people wear things for many reasons, sometimes to belong, sometimes to identify, sometimes for faith, sometimes because of fashion. That's the point - not everyone is necessarily wearing religious symbols to shove anything in your face or to show they're better than anyone else. Many women who cover are independent educated women, you can't judge by it.

[Firiel]

Religious dress is just another way to express a cultural code. We all have notions about how we "should" dress and make assumptions and judgments about people who don't dress that way-- religion doesn't have a monopoly on prejudice. And lots of that is based on culture-- religious or secular.

For instance, I'm at work in slacks, a blouse, and an (ugh) underwire bra. Would I choose to dress this way daily? Hell no. Am I doing this out of a sense of obligation? Yep. Do I think I'm doing right by dressing nicely at work? Well, yeah, culturally I realize that I must fit in with the norms. BUT I've heard soooo many people equate dressing nice with qualities like hard-working and dismiss those who find comfort in sweats as "just lazy," which is exactly what (some) fundies do, just about modesty instead of fashion.

But I'm not going to assume someone dressing nice is a jack-ass and I'm not going to assume the same about a woman dressed in a hijab or a frumper. They are dressing within their cultural understanding. Just like we all are.

Edited to add: Not to paint myself as some completely understanding and accepting person... personally, I'd have trouble knowing how to interact with women wearing hijabs simply because it is so uncommon where I live. It would definitely stand out and probably be a bit jarring. But I wouldn't purposely avoid eye contact or act coolly towards her because of her dress/religion/culture.

[August]

Sorry but being the outsider or persecuted due to religion is a very different thing than wearing gang colours; one was separated because their belief system was different, the other is organized crime. Sheesh. Yes, people wear things for many reasons, sometimes to belong, sometimes to identify, sometimes for faith, sometimes because of fashion. That's the point - not everyone is necessarily wearing religious symbols to shove anything in your face or to show they're better than anyone else. Many women who cover are independent educated women, you can't judge by it.

Read a little about gangs. The this american life episode 180 days would be a good start.

[mpheels]

Sorry but being the outsider or persecuted due to religion is a very different thing than wearing gang colours; one was separated because their belief system was different, the other is organized crime. Sheesh. Yes, people wear things for many reasons, sometimes to belong, sometimes to identify, sometimes for faith, sometimes because of fashion. That's the point - not everyone is necessarily wearing religious symbols to shove anything in your face or to show they're better than anyone else. Many women who cover are independent educated women, you can't judge by it.

I think your assessment of modern gangs is pretty narrow. Yes, there is crime, but modern gang culture is deeply rooted in race, racism and segregation. Gangs formed when people were persecuted for the color of their skin.

[Mama Mia]

:dance:

I think your assessment of modern gangs is pretty narrow. Yes, there is crime, but modern gang culture is deeply rooted in race, racism and segregation. Gangs formed when people were persecuted for the color of their skin.

Maybe, but that assessment just helps perpetuate a system that keeps kids throwing their lives away for the sake a easy money and a feeling of belonging....and killing and hurting other kids just like them who picked red instead of blue.

[tropaka]

Yes, there are origins of gangs along racial divides etc, but comparing, at this point in time, the hijab with gang colours is a false comparison.

[Aurora rising]

These questions were not meant to be neutral. They were based on my understanding that you wore religious head covering for religious reasons but didn't think it was important if others did.

It is not not important for me - I just don´t care why others wear what they were. You wear no hijab? Welcome! You wear a hijab? Welcome anyway and salam aleikum. For me it makes no difference - and I know a lot of other people who think the same.

I thought that was disingenuous and still would, if that were the situation. It is not. Now, my question is more "if you wear scarves based on your own choices, how is God involved in it in the day to day? I mean, bad hair scarf vs religious scarf seem like very different approaches. I am reminded of the little box of lace squares that some Christian churches kept (some still do) just outside the sanctuary for women who forgot their head covering. If I just grabbed one to wear to the store when my hair wouldn't lay down, people might still see it as a religious statement. (or that i'm nuts...)

God is involved in every day - at least for me. I pray (not regularly, I have to admit), I "talk" to Him and I try to do things better because of my faith (doesn´t mean that an atheist is a bad human being). I wear the scarf if I have a the feeling that I want to wear it, sometimes I just feel better with it, sometimes without. And I don´t think that Allah loves me more or less.

Does this answer your questions?

[salex]

It is not not important for me - I just don´t care why others wear what they were. You wear no hijab? Welcome! You wear a hijab? Welcome anyway and salam aleikum. For me it makes no difference - and I know a lot of other people who think the same.

God is involved in every day - at least for me. I pray (not regularly, I have to admit), I "talk" to Him and I try to do things better because of my faith (doesn´t mean that an atheist is a bad human being). I wear the scarf if I have a the feeling that I want to wear it, sometimes I just feel better with it, sometimes without. And I don´t think that Allah loves me more or less.

Does this answer your questions?

Sort of. I thought you were a Christian who wore scarves when I first answered you anyway, and most of the Christian scarf wearers are not on again off again unless they only believe in head covering during church and are pretty insistent that those who don't wear scarves are doing it wrong. I will just go with your answer that while it is important to you, it also is not.

[nausicaa]

It goes with the example I used in the previous sentence....

To suggest that religiously based clothing, hair styles, and other visible choices are not in part used to publicly define a person as part of a specific group seems to be kidding oneself. Specific dress-- of a denomination, a team, a gang, etc act as a key to the in-group and as a defining announcement to people outside the in-group who the wearer affiliates with.

If you don't want to be seen as a crip, don't wear their colors.

By that logic, if you've ever worn traditional American clothing (i.e., jeans, a tee shirt, sneakers or flip flops) then you are announcing that you are affiliated and agree with all of the actions the United States has ever taken at home and abroad?

Jeans and a tee-shirt are just as much a marker of identity and being part of an "in-group" as hijab, a habit, or a head covering.