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If you believe your god sends babies to eternal torture...


debrand

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I'm saying this as the mother of twin baby boys who passed away due to extreme prematurity (21 weeks): Anyone who could actually believe can kindly go fuck themselves. My twins were baptized at birth. We had it done not for fear of them going to hell, but more as a form of comfort in a time of grief. Even if they hadn't been, there is no way I could believe that there was the slightest chance of them, or any other baby or child that dies, going to hell. This belief is a complete slap in the face to anyone who has ever had a child die. A God who would do that is not good, and absolutely not a God I would worship. Not to mention, this whole "elect" business completely negates Jesus' sacrifice on the cross as another poster mentioned, and also makes the concept of free will completely pointless. :pull-hair:

I'm so sorry for your loss.

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Thanks anjulibai and Loveday. Twinmama I agree completely. I was always taught becoming a Christian was a choice. One chooses to accept Christ, just as one chooses to sin. That's why his followers went out to teach people about him. Calvinism makes absolutely no sense to me.

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I'm saying this as the mother of twin baby boys who passed away due to extreme prematurity (21 weeks): Anyone who could actually believe can kindly go fuck themselves. My twins were baptized at birth. We had it done not for fear of them going to hell, but more as a form of comfort in a time of grief. Even if they hadn't been, there is no way I could believe that there was the slightest chance of them, or any other baby or child that dies, going to hell. This belief is a complete slap in the face to anyone who has ever had a child die. A God who would do that is not good, and absolutely not a God I would worship. Not to mention, this whole "elect" business completely negates Jesus' sacrifice on the cross as another poster mentioned, and also makes the concept of free will completely pointless. :pull-hair:

I am sorry for your loss also.

Some fundies seem to have an inability imagine themselves in another person's place. It is like they have no empathy.

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In my husband's brand of Calvinism there is no wiggle room for free will. If you're one of the elect you'll get saved and become a Christian. There's something about irresitibility of the Holy Spirit. You don't have a choice in the matter. If if you technically wanted to be a Christian, you couldn't.

Even with arminianists you still have to accept Christ as your Savior to Heaven, but it's something you decide to do and you have the choice to accept or reject Christ.

Does he consider you one of the elect?

I have noticed that online Calvinists tend to define anyone who disagrees with them as sentimental or emotional. If you are emotional than they can disregard your opinion. What they fail to realize is that even if someone is making an emotional argument, that doesn't mean that the person is wrong.

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Never understood the concept of the elect. It totally negates the teachings of Calvinism regarding behavior because, as others have pointed out here, if you're one of the elect you're going to heaven, no matter what. If you're not, nothing can change your damnation.

What a fucking miserable view of life and eternity. John Calvin (who is in my avatar) must have been a terrible human being. Amazing how many worship him & his twisted interpretations of Christianity.

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I don't know how anyone who has HAD a baby could think this. Doesn't sinning require some kind of intent or choice?

Because they view infants as sinners they see every little action by the baby as some sort of sin. While we see an infant squirming around and not wanting their diaper to be changed as normal behaviour because the baby doesn't understand what is happening, they see it as willfull defiance that needs to be beaten out of them.

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The whole concept of some people being "elect" and some not has never been a part of my belief system. I think since God is omniscient He knows what we're going to choose, but I don't think that he played a game of enny meeny miny mo to "pick" certain people. I believe that we have the choice to be a Christian or not.

I agree with the statement that they won't accept anything that seems emotional. I tell my husband that he would've been a good Vulcan because his emotional capacity is nil.

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Never understood the concept of the elect. It totally negates the teachings of Calvinism regarding behavior because, as others have pointed out here, if you're one of the elect you're going to heaven, no matter what. If you're not, nothing can change your damnation.

What a fucking miserable view of life and eternity. John Calvin (who is in my avatar) must have been a terrible human being. Amazing how many worship him & his twisted interpretations of Christianity.

They get around that by saying the elect naturally are good. Therefore if you do something bad, it's because you never were a member of the elect.

So, I guess the salvation of the elect is actually an argument for abortion. If you're life means nothing (as you're elected from conception) there's really no need to live it. Skip the middle-man and go straight to your afterlife, right?

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They get around that by saying the elect naturally are good. Therefore if you do something bad, it's because you never were a member of the elect.

So, I guess the salvation of the elect is actually an argument for abortion. If you're life means nothing (as you're elected from conception) there's really no need to live it. Skip the middle-man and go straight to your afterlife, right?

Also, what's the point of taking care of the poor or sick. They're just going to go to hell anyway.

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Because they view infants as sinners they see every little action by the baby as some sort of sin. While we see an infant squirming around and not wanting their diaper to be changed as normal behaviour because the baby doesn't understand what is happening, they see it as willfull defiance that needs to be beaten out of them.

And something tells me that were we to leave these people bed bound in a wet, soiled adult diaper, they wouldn't just sit there sweetly for hours and accept the oncoming rash and sores as their lot in life...

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I'm saying this as the mother of twin baby boys who passed away due to extreme prematurity (21 weeks): Anyone who could actually believe can kindly go fuck themselves. My twins were baptized at birth. We had it done not for fear of them going to hell, but more as a form of comfort in a time of grief. Even if they hadn't been, there is no way I could believe that there was the slightest chance of them, or any other baby or child that dies, going to hell. This belief is a complete slap in the face to anyone who has ever had a child die. A God who would do that is not good, and absolutely not a God I would worship. Not to mention, this whole "elect" business completely negates Jesus' sacrifice on the cross as another poster mentioned, and also makes the concept of free will completely pointless. :pull-hair:

So sorry for your loss

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The whole concept of some people being "elect" and some not has never been a part of my belief system. I think since God is omniscient He knows what we're going to choose, but I don't think that he played a game of enny meeny miny mo to "pick" certain people. I believe that we have the choice to be a Christian or not.

I agree with the statement that they won't accept anything that seems emotional. I tell my husband that he would've been a good Vulcan because his emotional capacity is nil.

Why are you married to this man?

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I had a 'calvie' tell me that his mom had miscarried, and they didn't know if that baby would be in heaven or hell. But, either way it would bring glory to God. Of course, he and all the 'born' family members were 'elect', so they had hope that the baby was too. What a bunch of BS!

The other thing that drives me nuts about these calvies is how black and white they are. Every belief has to have its verses to back it up and you just better know all your stuff. Or you are a bad Christian. Or worse, unelect....

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And notice how no one ever says, "Yeah, I believe in Calvinism but unfortunately I know that I am not one of the elect."

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And notice how no one ever says, "Yeah, I believe in Calvinism but unfortunately I know that I am not one of the elect."

Because why would you?

ALTHOUGH...Jehovah's Witnesses have a similar belief system. Not SO bad, but they believe only 144,000 are going to heaven, and all of them have been since the death of Christ. (So Noah, Moses, Abraham...not going to heaven) The remaining billions who "believe" will be raised up, in order of their deaths, to a paradise on earth. Then they are "tested" and they either die permanently or are allowed to live on a paradise on earth for 1,000 years, then they will be tested again. THEN? Forever.

Most have no problem accepting that they will *not* be in heaven.

They believe babies are dead, and the "hope" is that they will be resurrected. It doesn't matter about the sins of the parents, because babies are innocent. If the parents don't make it? Oh well, baby gets to live with new parents.

I don't want to live forever on a paradise on earth, but apparently quite a few do. (shrug) Last I heard, they were set on "satan came to earth in 1914" and "a child of the age of reason in 1914 will still be alive at the end of days." I think they changed it to a child who was alive in 1914, but it is getting tougher every year. I might talk to them if they knock on my door, if only to find out when the end of days are coming now.

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And notice how no one ever says, "Yeah, I believe in Calvinism but unfortunately I know that I am not one of the elect."

Emily Dickinson was raised Calvinist and wrote a whole bunch of poems about religious uncertainty. I can't imagine that she was the only person with her background who ever experienced those emotions, but she seems to be unusual in that she actually expressed them. I prefer her way of dealing with her doubts and concerns to that of, say, anybody on Puritan Board.

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Emily Dickinson was raised Calvinist and wrote a whole bunch of poems about religious uncertainty. I can't imagine that she was the only person with her background who ever experienced those emotions, but she seems to be unusual in that she actually expressed them. I prefer her way of dealing with her doubts and concerns to that of, say, anybody on Puritan Board.

This was actually a pretty common theme ina lot of early American Lit--I can't put my finger on the timeframe and quote right now but I know that laws changed in early colonies to allow people who were 'uncertain' if they were elect to be members of the church/vote/etc because there were lots of people who were unsure.

Of course, I'd imagine that now that going to a different church isn't a huge deal, people who are unsure just go elsewhere and ignore the whole 'elect' BS :lol:

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See, this mishegoss and chazerai* explain why I cling to my personal philosophy of "My God is smarter than your god." If there is indeed a Divine Intelligence, S/He can look into our souls and know everything that's there. Yes, life may suck (to greater or lesser extents) for many, but I cling to the belief that, when we kick the bucket, we come face to face with this Divine Intelligence and come into a clear understanding of what life's about. This process will be more pleasant for some than others. For babies, it will be nothing less than complete bliss.

*Mishegoss=Craziness. Chazerai=$#!+.

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Because why would you?

ALTHOUGH...Jehovah's Witnesses have a similar belief system. Not SO bad, but they believe only 144,000 are going to heaven, and all of them have been since the death of Christ. (So Noah, Moses, Abraham...not going to heaven) The remaining billions who "believe" will be raised up, in order of their deaths, to a paradise on earth. Then they are "tested" and they either die permanently or are allowed to live on a paradise on earth for 1,000 years, then they will be tested again. THEN? Forever.

Most have no problem accepting that they will *not* be in heaven.

They believe babies are dead, and the "hope" is that they will be resurrected. It doesn't matter about the sins of the parents, because babies are innocent. If the parents don't make it? Oh well, baby gets to live with new parents.

I don't want to live forever on a paradise on earth, but apparently quite a few do. (shrug) Last I heard, they were set on "satan came to earth in 1914" and "a child of the age of reason in 1914 will still be alive at the end of days." I think they changed it to a child who was alive in 1914, but it is getting tougher every year. I might talk to them if they knock on my door, if only to find out when the end of days are coming now.

I dated a JW and lived his with family for a few years when I was in undergrad. This was about a decade ago, but at that time, they told me they believed that those among the elect born after 1914 would still be alive come Christ's resurrection. Those that were not among the elect would die, but would be resurrected when Christ's thousand year reign on Earth began. The 144,000 in Heaven would be assisting Jesus in reigning the Kingdom, and would go back and forth between Heaven and Earth.

They did believe that everyone that had died would have a sort of second chance when they were reserected. Only those that completely rejected God when Christ's reign begins would be sent to hell or died a second death. The rest of us would live happily in Paradise on Earth for eternity.

The told me that even I, an unbeliever, would be resurrected and would have a second chance at believing. Death for them is only a form of sleeping for the soul.

I think this is much different than the Calvinist take. Even if you aren't among the elect, you're going to be given Paradise.

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I agree with the statement that they won't accept anything that seems emotional. I tell my husband that he would've been a good Vulcan because his emotional capacity is nil.

I am sorry that you are dealing with a husband who doesn't show his emotions. Although many Calvinists like to view their views as logical and rational, I think that their beliefs appeal to their emotions and is why they remain or become Calvinists. The ideology appeals both the emotional need to feel superior and the desire to put people into categories of us versus them. I am not saying that your husband is bad but he might not realize that his decision to accept Calvinism is no less emotional than your reason to not be Calvinist.

It is actually logical to be upset that innocent babies-the future of our species- are hurt.

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Who could believe in (and love) a god that sends babies to hell? I have never heard that before. Every Christian I know would say that god sends all babies to heaven (or limbo).

My fundie Catholic in-laws. Every few years we get a lovely letter in the mail from them, raking us across the coals for not having our kiddos baptized in the Catholic church...even though my husband left the faith 7 years ago. My MIL's latest justification is "you don't leave the hospital without a birth certificate, so why neglect doing what's necessary to ensure your child doesn't go to hell?"

We don't leave our kids alone with them for fear they'll sneak them to a priest or take it upon themselves to baptize in the bathtub.

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Do you think Calvinists believe that once you die, everyone is the same age, or no age at all? Like everyone is 20? Whether they died as babies, kids, or adults? I can see how that would make them sleep better at night about the babies. If it's only in this incarnation that we have an age, then it isn't a baby in hell, it's a soul without a human age.

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