If you believe your god sends babies to eternal torture...

[ILoveJellybeans]

What kind of deity would create or allow the creation of billions of people, most of whom would be doomed to an eternity in hell?

Fundie God plays the universe like I play Sims. He is very sadistic and enjoys destroying and killing off his creations.

[JesusFightClub]

Because they view infants as sinners they see every little action by the baby as some sort of sin. While we see an infant squirming around and not wanting their diaper to be changed as normal behaviour because the baby doesn't understand what is happening, they see it as willfull defiance that needs to be beaten out of them.

I have heard the argument that a baby crying minutes after it is born shows its sin nature. But an elect child will not die, obviously, before its time - and its time will be after it has accepted Jesus.

[Hane]

My fundie Catholic in-laws. Every few years we get a lovely letter in the mail from them, raking us across the coals for not having our kiddos baptized in the Catholic church...even though my husband left the faith 7 years ago. My MIL's latest justification is "you don't leave the hospital without a birth certificate, so why neglect doing what's necessary to ensure your child doesn't go to hell?"

We don't leave our kids alone with them for fear they'll sneak them to a priest or take it upon themselves to baptize in the bathtub.

They wouldn't even have to do that: all it takes is dipping your fingers in water, making a sign of the cross on the baby's forehead, and saying, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." Completely valid baptism per Catholic doctrine.

[Confused_by_religion]

My fundie Catholic in-laws. Every few years we get a lovely letter in the mail from them, raking us across the coals for not having our kiddos baptized in the Catholic church...even though my husband left the faith 7 years ago.

Actually, as has been explained to me by a rather fundie Catholic, you can't ever leave the church. Because, er, you were baptized, and that apparently can't be undone. So if you leave the club, you don't really leave the club. Because you can't.

* cue in the evil laughter here.

[salex]

I don't get it. So I take it that these people believe that everyone is born sinful, and must be saved in order to go to heaven. I'm assuming people have to be baptized ? Do they baptize infants? If they don't, then how on earth is the baby supposed to be saved in their view? Obviously the baby can't read the bible, or hold a conversation and then decide to accept Jesus......so what are that options? Even if they baptize infants, there are going to be newborns who aren't baptized yet. I'm confused. How can someone come up with an interpretation of the bible that sends babies to hell? Horrible.[/quote

Some of them believe in baptizing even infants born dead, to try to get them into heaven. And yes, sick newborns have been baptized.

Not all calvinists believe in "getting saved" -- in the context that say a Southern Baptist might. THe baby was born elect, and baptism is the outward sign, but it is all God's choice. A wonderful, saved lady who has led as clean a life a possible and gone to the "right" church her whole life might end up in hell despite her belief because she is not of the elect....

taken to its logical conclusion strict calvinism is pretty ugly.

[twinmama]

I have heard the argument that a baby crying minutes after it is born shows its sin nature. But an elect child will not die, obviously, before its time - and its time will be after it has accepted Jesus.

Yowsers. Minutes after its born! Hey, I guess I have one little sinner and one perfect kid then as only 1 cried when they were born. Granted, the other needed help breathing but whatever, he's perfect! I don't even understand their definition of sin though. How do they think crying is a sin? Because its annoying? Is literally everything a sin?

[notsocommon]

Babies cry to communicate needs, therefore a baby is self-centered and selfish, therefore the baby is an evil sinner.

Makes perfect sense, right? :? :shock: :roll:

[JesusFightClub]

Babies cry to communicate needs, therefore a baby is self-centered and selfish, therefore the baby is an evil sinner.

Makes perfect sense, right? :? :shock: :roll:

S'right. Well, basically the idea is that the baby, by crying, is "self willed" and "wanting things its own way". These are sinful self-centred desires, so the baby shows that it is a sinner from birth.

[ILoveJellybeans]

In fundieland, crying is inconvenient for the parents, therefore it is a sin. They insist on having a million kids, but cant cope with them so beat them for doing developmentally appropriate things that just happen to be inconvenient to them.

If they wanted children but didn't want them to cry, throw tantrums, get into things they shouldn't, wake them up at night, make messes or make noise, they should have bought some dolls instead.

[twinmama]

S'right. Well, basically the idea is that the baby, by crying, is "self willed" and "wanting things its own way". These are sinful self-centred desires, so the baby shows that it is a sinner from birth.

Damn babies wanting food and drink and to not sit in their shit. :pink-shock:

[Firiel]

Damn babies wanting food and drink and to not sit in their shit. :pink-shock:

I've heard that it's babies crying when they aren't hungry or wet (i.e. no apparent physical need) shows manipulative/sinful human nature. In other words, they know that when they cry, you come. So even if they don't need you for anything, they'll cry to get you to make an appearance.

Because, you know, human connection is worldly and dangerous and happiness doesn't matter. It really falls in line with the isolation and depressing lives of many fundies.

[karismanic]

They wouldn't even have to do that: all it takes is dipping your fingers in water, making a sign of the cross on the baby's forehead, and saying, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." Completely valid baptism per Catholic doctrine.

True. Now I've got to watch MIL in the kitchen and with the garden hose, too... :)

[RosyDaisy]

Jesus had a lot to say about children going to heaven, but Calvinists seem to overlook that.

[PennySycamore]

We had our extremely premature daughter baptized while she was still in the NICU 26 years ago. Of course, Catholic baptism doesn't usually involve immersion.