If you believe your god sends babies to eternal torture...

[debrand]

..you are an evil person. Adults have a choice in how they interpret the bible. There are several verses that contradict one another so which form of Christianity that you follow says something about you as an individual. Believing that babies not only go but deserve , torture that lasts forever is sick.

reformedanswers.org/answer.asp/file/40388

Most who believe that infants may justly be sent to hell, however, do not believe that all infants who die actually go to hell. Rather, most believe in the existence of elect infants -- infants whom God sovereignly regenerates and saves, despite the fact that they deserve hell. That people can be regenerate and saved from infancy, and even from the womb, appears to be demonstrated by John the Baptist in Luke 1:44. This does not necessarily imply that all infants who die are elect, though some Reformed theologians have also held this position.

Further, a good argument can be made that God shows particular favor upon covenant children who die, so that believers may have more confidence than others that their children who die in infancy are among the elect. This idea is implied by the fact that God does not treat his covenant people with the same strictness with which he treats others. Rather, with his covenant people, he is slow to anger and quick to show mercy. He also has a special love for the children of believers (Ps. 103:17). Further, God's love for believers inclines him to be good to believers, and the Bible tells us that children are God's gift to believers (Ps. 127:3). This implies that one way that God blesses covenant members is by treating their children with mercy (compare Gen. 26:24; 1 Kings 11:12). Moreover, the ideal blessing which God describes for his people includes the lives and blessing of their children (Isa. 65:18-23), creating for us an expectation that God will be good to our children even when they die in infancy (i.e. that he will save them). This also happens to be my own position.

[EmiGirl]

Even Ken and Lori don't believe this and they are monsters!

[debrand]

/highlandsministriesonline.org/ask-rc/ask-rc-what-happens-to-babies-when-they-die/

And here is Sproul's answer to the question.

Could God give saving faith to all that He takes from us? Of course He could. Does He? I don’t know. He doesn’t say that He does, but there is nothing in what He has told us that would make this impossible. He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. If He wants to have mercy on all the little babies, praise be unto His name. If He doesn’t, praise be unto His name.

In short, the same thing that happens with adults, grannies, teens, natives in Africa, natives in Mendota, the handicapped, with everyone, is what happens with little babies. Those who rest in Christ enter into eternal rest. Those who don’t, face His eternal wrath. As we seek to wrestle through this, let’s be careful to be on the lookout for our prejudices. Let’s beware justification by smart enough alone. Let’s not either romanticize away the universality of sin.

A god that would send babies to be tortured forever is evil. Case closed.And anyone who praises the evil god is a stupid twit.

[Arete]

Calvinist wankery.

[Cleopatra7]

I don't think that it is a coincidence that the US and South Africa, two countries most known for having vicious racial caste systems and extreme wealth disparities, were both founded by Calvinist settlers. The Calvinist doctrine of the elect easily morphs into a feeling of superiority towards outside groups, especially when juxtaposed against non-Christian, dark skinned others.

[debrand]

Even Ken and Lori don't believe this and they are monsters!

Maybe Ken and Lori have some iota of decency in them.

I don't know how anyone could think that a god that they claim is loving would send babies to hell. Remember hell is a place where torture and pain never ends.

Here is a discussion on this issue on the Puritan Board

.puritanboard.com/f48/al-mohler-all-babies-dying-infancy-go-heaven-34759/

All babies that die are among the elect? So, if Adolf Hitler had died as an infant, he would have been among the elect? His life proves that he was not elected, which means he wasn't elected as an infant, either.

All babies are born sinners (Psalm 51:5). All babies, as they grow, need the gospel.

Hitler was an abused child whose father severely beat him. Perhaps if someone had taken an infant Hitler away from his abusive dad, Adolph would not have grown up to be a monster. Only on the Puritan Board would Hitler be used as a reason why babies don't go to heaven.

and

I don't think Mohler proved his case, if that's what he's trying to say (babies chosen to die young are elect). Frankly, I think that people who want all babies dying in infancy to be elect are responding sentimentally or emotionally. But the Bible unequivocally says that all human beings are sinners from conception. So, the best we can say is that some infants dying in infancy are elect, but not all.

Saying that babies don't deserve pain is called being decent a human being.

[Olive Plant]

God does not treat his covenant people with the same strictness with which he treats others. Rather, with his covenant people, he is slow to anger and quick to show mercy.

Uhhh yeah this is fundie's position in a nutshell. We are shpeshul, y'all! God doesn't hate us like he hates all the sinners around us! When we do horrible things to people, it's actually Ok! Cuz we're not sinners! We are ELECT!

Calvin can suck it.

Also I'm not sure how babies sin. Like maybe they have impure thoughts? They steal? They deliberately kick their moms with the intention of causing pain? I don't even get it… oh wait "sinner from conception," it's in the Bible, no explanation needed!!

[singsingsing]

What's the point of anything if some people are just destined for heaven and some for hell, and it doesn't even matter if you die as an infant, you're going where you're going? What need could there possibly have been for Jesus's sacrifice or his teachings? Why would he call on people to repent and believe in him? Why would it possibly matter if their future was already set?!

[NotALoserLikeYou]

What's the point of anything if some people are just destined for heaven and some for hell, and it doesn't even matter if you die as an infant, you're going where you're going? What need could there possibly have been for Jesus's sacrifice or his teachings? Why would he call on people to repent and believe in him? Why would it possibly matter if their future was already set?!

Seriously! I have such a problem with Calvinism.

You know, Ben seewald is a devoted reformed Calvinist. I wonder what the duggars think of that.

[ADoyle90815]

Uhhh yeah this is fundie's position in a nutshell. We are shpeshul, y'all! God doesn't hate us like he hates all the sinners around us! When we do horrible things to people, it's actually Ok! Cuz we're not sinners! We are ELECT!

Calvin can suck it.

Also I'm not sure how babies sin. Like maybe they have impure thoughts? They steal? They deliberately kick their moms with the intention of causing pain? I don't even get it… oh wait "sinner from conception," it's in the Bible, no explanation needed!!

The only "sin" I could think of that babies might commit is to be female in some cultures, or in those churches that take the Sabbath seriously, one could argue that simply being born close to the weekend would be a sin as it keeps hospital staff and midwives working.

[PurpleSheepleEater]

The only "sin" I could think of that babies might commit is to be female in some cultures, or in those churches that take the Sabbath seriously, one could argue that simply being born close to the weekend would be a sin as it keeps hospital staff and midwives working.

They believe in original sin, meaning you are sinful because you are human basically. Sin is passed down from parent to child. We are all born sinful and in need of saving.

[Mama Mia]

I don't get it. So I take it that these people believe that everyone is born sinful, and must be saved in order to go to heaven. I'm assuming people have to be baptized ? Do they baptize infants? If they don't, then how on earth is the baby supposed to be saved in their view? Obviously the baby can't read the bible, or hold a conversation and then decide to accept Jesus......so what are that options? Even if they baptize infants, there are going to be newborns who aren't baptized yet. I'm confused. How can someone come up with an interpretation of the bible that sends babies to hell? Horrible.

[Patsy]

I don't get it. So I take it that these people believe that everyone is born sinful, and must be saved in order to go to heaven. I'm assuming people have to be baptized ? Do they baptize infants? If they don't, then how on earth is the baby supposed to be saved in their view? Obviously the baby can't read the bible, or hold a conversation and then decide to accept Jesus......so what are that options? Even if they baptize infants, there are going to be newborns who aren't baptized yet. I'm confused. How can someone come up with an interpretation of the bible that sends babies to hell? Horrible.

Some actually do infant baptism (the Coghlans do, as a sign that they're making the baby a part of their church, and IMO probably because they assume any baby of theirs is elect anyway), but otherwise, if the baby was predestined to be saved, whether or not it actually got to the altar call doesn't matter.

Count me in as a person who doesn't get Calvinism at all, although IMO similar problems come about from belief in an omniscient god who answers prayers :confusion-shrug:

[Stephanie66]

Who could believe in (and love) a god that sends babies to hell? I have never heard that before. Every Christian I know would say that god sends all babies to heaven (or limbo).

[EmiGirl]

Who could believe in (and love) a god that sends babies to hell? I have never heard that before. Every Christian I know would say that god sends all babies to heaven (or limbo).

My husband. We can't even bring up the subject of Calvinism without getting into a huge fight that ends with us not speaking for at least 24 hours.

[PurpleSheepleEater]

I was told that we are all born sinful, from day one. There is this kind of disclaimer involving "age of accountability" but there's no definition of that and apparently it's different for each person depending on their understanding. So yeah, basically most fundies believe that we are all destined for hell from day one which is why you find 3 year olds praying the sinners prayer and why you find 5 year olds telling their friends they have to get saved. The system is extremely fear based.

Oddly enough, baptists don't believe you have to be baptized to be saved, but it's a good idea to be baptized so you can identify as a saved person in front of your church family.

[anjulibai]

My husband. We can't even bring up the subject of Calvinism without getting into a huge fight that ends with us not speaking for at least 24 hours.

Why does he believe this? How does he justify it?

[EmiGirl]

Why does he believe this? How does he justify it?

#1 he's a Calvinist. #2 He believes we're all sinful from the beginning. Plus there's nothing in the Bible that says there are any exceptions to, "No man comes to the Father except through me." Like I said, Calvinism ( and evolution) isn't discussed in our house because it causes a lot of heated arguments.

[Mama Mia]

But I thought it didn't matter even if everyone is a sinner, because God loves everyone anyway? So why wouldn't that count for babies?

[Cleopatra7]

But I thought it didn't matter even if everyone is a sinner, because God loves everyone anyway? So why wouldn't that count for babies?

For Calvinists, God only loves the elect; the rest he can do without. There are a lot of Bible passages that talk about how only a minority of the population will be saved. Non-Calvinists interpret these to mean that Jesus' sacrifice was for all, but only those who respond to God's call will be saved. There is an element of free will. Even so, many non-Calvinists have wiggle room for babies, people who died before Jesus' time, people living in countries where they can't hear the Christian message, etc. Hard-core Calvinists don't care. You're either elect or you aren't. Hitler could be one of the elect and if God wants to save him, that's totally okay. Of course, I don't think they would say something so extreme, but Calvinists would say that God can put whoever he wants in the elect, even if said person is seen as bad by human standards. This is how some apologists get past the question of genocide in the Bible.

[BoomerLynn]

I'm saying this as the mother of twin baby boys who passed away due to extreme prematurity (21 weeks): Anyone who could actually believe can kindly go fuck themselves. My twins were baptized at birth. We had it done not for fear of them going to hell, but more as a form of comfort in a time of grief. Even if they hadn't been, there is no way I could believe that there was the slightest chance of them, or any other baby or child that dies, going to hell. This belief is a complete slap in the face to anyone who has ever had a child die. A God who would do that is not good, and absolutely not a God I would worship. Not to mention, this whole "elect" business completely negates Jesus' sacrifice on the cross as another poster mentioned, and also makes the concept of free will completely pointless. :pull-hair:

[flojo]

I emember being about 10 or 11 years old at a school holiday programme, an asking where babies go when they die. That woman up the front answered "Well, the parents decide. Because we were Christians, we know that our little girl* is in heaven". Not satisfied by this, I asked "so what about if, like, a Buddhists child dies?" (I was raised that all other religions are evil, period.). She looked at me and answered "Then I'm sorry, those parents already made that decision for their child".

Even as a fundy-light raised 11-year-old, this was too much for me.

*They had lost a daughter at one year old.

[EmiGirl]

For Calvinists, God only loves the elect; the rest he can do without. There are a lot of Bible passages that talk about how only a minority of the population will be saved. Non-Calvinists interpret these to mean that Jesus' sacrifice was for all, but only those who respond to God's call will be saved. There is an element of free will. Even so, many non-Calvinists have wiggle room for babies, people who died before Jesus' time, people living in countries where they can't hear the Christian message, etc. Hard-core Calvinists don't care. You're either elect or you aren't. Hitler could be one of the elect and if God wants to save him, that's totally okay. Of course, I don't think they would say something so extreme, but Calvinists would say that God can put whoever he wants in the elect, even if said person is seen as bad by human standards. This is how some apologists get past the question of genocide in the Bible.

In my husband's brand of Calvinism there is no wiggle room for free will. If you're one of the elect you'll get saved and become a Christian. There's something about irresitibility of the Holy Spirit. You don't have a choice in the matter. If if you technically wanted to be a Christian, you couldn't.

Even with arminianists you still have to accept Christ as your Savior to Heaven, but it's something you decide to do and you have the choice to accept or reject Christ.

[twinmama]

All babies are born sinners

I don't know how anyone who has HAD a baby could think this. Doesn't sinning require some kind of intent or choice?

[anjulibai]

I'm saying this as the mother of twin baby boys who passed away due to extreme prematurity (21 weeks): Anyone who could actually believe can kindly go fuck themselves. My twins were baptized at birth. We had it done not for fear of them going to hell, but more as a form of comfort in a time of grief. Even if they hadn't been, there is no way I could believe that there was the slightest chance of them, or any other baby or child that dies, going to hell. This belief is a complete slap in the face to anyone who has ever had a child die. A God who would do that is not good, and absolutely not a God I would worship. Not to mention, this whole "elect" business completely negates Jesus' sacrifice on the cross as another poster mentioned, and also makes the concept of free will completely pointless. :pull-hair:

I'm sorry you lost your boys. :(