"Wine" in the Bible

[Swamptribe]

This complete and utter denial on the part of so many Fundamentalists of the alcoholic content of wine as mentioned in the bible just fascinates me. A frequent argument put forth by 'fundies' is that the wine mentioned in the bible was actually unfermented grape juice. Example: Anna correcting Josh in front of the children with "grape juice". Most of us here realize this is complete bovine scatology. I was bored this afternoon so started poking around, and found some interesting references on the subject.

 

(not breaking links as I don't think they'll care)

 

http://dispensationalist.blogspot.com/2 ... bible.html

 

The following wiki article lists many of the words used for 'wine' in the bible, and their definitions and meanings culturally. I know these lists are not complete.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_in_the_Bible

 

Greek Transliteration Strong's no. Meaning[58] Biblical appearances

 

οίνος oinos 3631 the common word translated "wine" in the New Testament and Septuagint.[14][59] New Testament[60] and Septuagint (corresponding to masoretic tirosh,[61] chemer,[62] shekar,[63] sobhe,[64] shemarim,[65] and 'asis[66])[67]

 

γλευκος gleukos 1098 "sweet wine" (sometimes rendered "new wine"), which may have been intoxicating.[68][14][69] New Testament[70] and Septuagint[71]

 

σίκερα sikera 4608 a Hebrew loanword from shekar meaning "strong drink."[72] New Testament[73] and Septuagint[74][75]

 

όξος oxos 3690 vinegar, sour wine; could be made from grape wine or other fermented beverages; when mixed with water, it was a common, cheap drink of the poor and of the Roman army[41][42][76][77] New Testament[78] and Septuagint[79]

 

μέθυσμα methusma - an intoxicating drink[80] Septuagint only (corresponding to masoretic tirosh on a single occasion,[81] and to shekar on all others[82])[83]

 

Hebrew

 

The Hebrew Bible was largely written in Biblical Hebrew, with portions in Biblical Aramaic, and a has an important Ancient Greek translation called the Septuagint. The modern Hebrew Bible, which generally follows the masoretic text, uses several words to represent alcoholic beverages:

Hebrew Transliteration Strong's no. Meaning[11] Septuagint equivalent(s)

יין

 

[12][13]

yayin 3196 the common word translated "wine"[14] gleukos (see below), katoinousthai ("to be drunken"),[15] oinopotes ("drunkard"),[16] oinos (see below), sumposion ("drinking party")[17][18]

תירוש

 

[19][20]

tirosh 8492 properly "must"; sometimes rendered as "wine," "new wine," or "sweet wine." It can represent juice at any stage in the fermentation process,[2] and in some places it "represents rather wine made from the first drippings of the juice before the winepress was trodden. As such it would be particularly potent."[21] It can certainly be alcoholic, as in Ho 4:11 methusma[22] (see below), oinos (all other references; see below)[23]

שכר

 

[24][25]

shekar 7941 "strong drink"; "denotes any inebriating drink with about 7–10 percent alcoholic content, not hard liquor, because there is no evidence of distilled liquor in ancient times.... It was made from either fruit and/or barley beer";[5] the term can include wine,[26] but generally it is used in combination with it ("wine and strong drink") to encompass all varieties of intoxicants[27] methê ("strong drink, drunkenness"),[28] methusma (see below), oinos (see below), sikera (see below)[29]

חמר

 

[30][31]

chemer, corresponding to the Aramaic chamar 2561, 2562 "wine"; the word "conveys the idea of 'foaming,' as in the process of fermentation, or when poured out. It is derived from the root hamar, meaning 'to boil up'"[14] methê ("strong drink, drunkenness"),[28] oinos (see below)[32]

עסיס

 

[33][34]

'asis 6071 "sweet wine" or "new wine", the vintage of the current year with intoxicating power[14] glukasmos ("sweetness, sweet wine"),[35] methê ("strong drink, "drunkenness"),[28] nama, oinos neos ("new wine")[36][37]

חמץ

 

[38][39]

chomets 2558 vinegar, which was made from wine or other fermented beverage and used as a condiment or, when mixed with water, a slightly intoxicating drink[40][41][42] omphax ("unripe or sour grape"),[43] oxos (see below)[32]

שמר

 

[44][45]

shemar, (pl: shemarim) 8105 lees or dregs of wine; "wine that has been kept on the lees, and therefore old wine"[14] ("if [the wine] were designed to be kept for some time a certain amount of lees was added to give it body")[46] oinos (see below), trugias ("full of lees")[47][48]

סבא

 

[49][50]

sobhe 5435 drink, liquor, wine oinos (see below)[51]

ממסך

 

[44][52]

mamsak and mesekh 4469, 4538 "mixed drink," "mixed wine," "drink-offering;" the word is "properly a mixture of wine and water with spices that increase its stimulating properties."[14] kerasma ("mixture")[53][54]

מזג

 

[55]

mezeg 4197 "mixture", "mixed wine" krama ("mixture, especially mixed wine")[56][57]

[doggie]

of course it is stupid. grape juice would only be grape juice for a day or two in the right season. But hey denying is the fundy way the age of the earth gayness the sun orbiting the earth and the world enduing.

[August]

You don't even need to look at e bible. Real life tells you that grape juice would last at most a couple of hours before starting to ferment. They would not have been serving it at a wedding.

[Arete]

Wine was also both food and medicine in the ancient world. You weren't wasting limited arable land for juice.

[Cleopatra7]

Don't these people know anything about pasteurization? Like how it's only been around for 150 years or so?

[Vex]

Don't these people know anything about pasteurization? Like how it's only been around for 150 years or so?

No. They just know that in this day and age you can have grape juice. They don't think scientifically. They might acknowledge that there were no fridges and that meat had to be cured, but if meat could be preserved without fridges surely they found a way to preserve grape juice. I'm pretty sure that's the thought process.

Basically, it's just ignorance. The way of preserving milk/juice/ect has always been through fermentation, it's something found throughout the world.

[Coconut Flan]

What did these anti-wine groups use for communion before pasteurization?

[debrand]

What I have been told is that the ancients boiled raisins and drank the water. Sounds nasty to me and highly unlikely when making wine would have been so much easier.

[Coconut Flan]

Checking the history of communion in the Methodist Church they used wine until the late 1800s when Welch who was a Methodist minister began bottling grape juice to solve his own ethical quandary. It took several years to catch on. It's funny to me how so many of the fundies are attached to relatively recent religious innovations.

[Arete]

What I have been told is that the ancients boiled raisins and drank the water. Sounds nasty to me and highly unlikely when making wine would have been so much easier.

That is some awe inspiring brain bending. Not only did they make wine and not raisin juice, wine was considered one of the gifts the gods/God gave to mankind.

In Greece the Church actually has a small service for the blessing of the first ripe grapes of the season. People bring baskets from their vines and use the blessed grapes for their first fermentations. The service includes prayers for good wine to come from the grapes to "make our hearts glad".

[Arete]

Checking the history of communion in the Methodist Church they used wine until the late 1800s when Welch who was a Methodist minister began bottling grape juice to solve his own ethical quandary. It took several years to catch on. It's funny to me how so many of the fundies are attached to relatively recent religious innovations.

I can't fault the religious leadership trying to find solutions to a problem like endemic alcoholism by wanting to eliminate anything seen as a perceived stumbling block. It was the 19th century, and no one understood the root causes of alcoholism.

What I find great fault with is this nonsensical rewriting of the social and religious history of wine. The writing, art, and artifacts of ancient cultures call these rewrites out as lies. The Bible calls it out as lies. Teach people moderation, not lies. It's a scandal to have Christians making fools of themselves and ignoring the evidence in their own scriptures to prattle about grape and raisin juice.

[lizziesmom]

Fundies have their own way of interpreting the Bible to fit in with their belief systems.

[No Cure for Stupid]

People also forget that alcohol was different then. It wasn't as strong and more diluted than it is now. I'm a teetoller, but I realize that as much as I hate alcohol, without it, humanity wouldn't have survived since alcohol made undrinkable water safe for human consumption.

[Arete]

What evidence is there that alcohol was more dilute in the Ancient world? If anything wine was often diluted with water to slow down the effects of intoxication at symposium. People overindulged then as they still do today.

[formergothardite]

People also forget that alcohol was different then. It wasn't as strong and more diluted than it is now. I'm a teetoller, but I realize that as much as I hate alcohol, without it, humanity wouldn't have survived since alcohol made undrinkable water safe for human consumption.

I have read people saying that it was more diluted, but I've also read lots of things saying that it wasn't. So I haven't seen any real proof that the wine back then was less strong than it is today. The good Samaritan poured wine on the wounds of the wounded guy to help heal them so the wine he used could not have been that different and diluted.

Do you hate alcohol as in you personally don't like or do you think alcohol is bad for everyone?

[Coconut Flan]

I read that wine was 5 to 20% alcohol back in Biblical times. One of their biggest problems was preventing over fermentation. That sounds in line with today's wines doesn't it?

[JaChelle Sugar]

have the fundies ever even had grape juice a few days old? unrefrigerated it starts tasting 'off' and having a weird fizz. no need to take the effort to do a science experiment in the kitchen either (too much bother) just grab some kid's cup that's been sitting out.

wait i bet they don't give there kid's juice. expensive and unnecessary and messy. not that those aren't good points but still. it's like they bend over backward to avoid actual science.

[Swamptribe]

I read that wine was 5 to 20% alcohol back in Biblical times. One of their biggest problems was preventing over fermentation. That sounds in line with today's wines doesn't it?

Actually, fermentation stops when the alcohol content of the liquid becomes high enough to kill off the yeast. It's only because of modern regulations that wine and beer are limited to a particular proof. Modern wine making goes to all sorts of trouble to create specific yeasts. Collecting wild yeasts to make wine, or breads, is pretty haphazard. Hence why they ended up with a lot of vinegars:)

I've actually made home made wine. One of the biggest problems is sanitation. Keeping your juice from becoming contaminated with undesirable yeasts during the fermentation process.

We get higher alcoholic beverages (rum, bourbon, tequila) content because of distillation removing some of the water and concentrating the alcohol. Which makes me wonder up when the distillation process was first invented. Something to go Google.

Now, if you will excuse me, I'm off to have a hard cider. You know, apple wine. Someday, I'm going to try mead.

[RosyDaisy]

The Bible says wine. I don't know how much clearer it could be. Having said that, I don't oppose using grape juice for Communion. My church uses grape juice. What I do oppose is twisting Scripture.

[anniebgood]

Our church uses red wine and white grape juice in a special cup with 2 compartments. We did that since we have kids who come to communion and some parents asked if they could be communed with the white grape juice, and also since we have some people who have been in AA for many years and we don't want them to feel that they are breaking their sobriety. That's been going on for about 25 years now. We also use intinction where you get the wafer and then dip it into either side.

My grandma was a Methodist and my grandpa was a Baptist and they never went to communion when they came to see us. They'd go to church but never communion. (And they raised all their kids in the EUB church because there wasn't one of the others in the tiny town they lived in in Wisconsin).

[No Cure for Stupid]

Do you hate alcohol as in you personally don't like or do you think alcohol is bad for everyone?

I think alcohol is bad for everyone. People glamourize it far too much. There's all the debate about smoking and doing drugs, but alcohol is much more popular than either of those. Millions of people die each year due to alcohol, either directly through alcohol poisoning or indirectly through alcohol-related accidents. There are life-altering consequences to alcohol that people just gloss over, and I think it's wrong; most people just treat getting drunk as a part of growing up.

So, I do believe alcohol is bad for everyone.

[Arete]

I think alcohol is bad for everyone. People glamourize it far too much. There's all the debate about smoking and doing drugs, but alcohol is much more popular than either of those. Millions of people die each year due to alcohol, either directly through alcohol poisoning or indirectly through alcohol-related accidents. There are life-altering consequences to alcohol that people just gloss over, and I think it's wrong; most people just treat getting drunk as a part of growing up.

So, I do believe alcohol is bad for everyone.

What you are describing is more a problem of how people are socialized with alcohol than alcohol itself. Wine, beer, and spirits can all be enjoyed without the goal or result of being plastered.

[theologygeek]

What evidence is there that alcohol was more dilute in the Ancient world? If anything wine was often diluted with water to slow down the effects of intoxication at symposium. People overindulged then as they still do today.

I agree. There is no evidence in the bible that alcohol was more dilute back then.

[doggie]

I think for regular meals or for breakfast and such it was diluted or they drank beer. but social or important ones it was not.

[theologygeek]

I think alcohol is bad for everyone. People glamourize it far too much. There's all the debate about smoking and doing drugs, but alcohol is much more popular than either of those. Millions of people die each year due to alcohol, either directly through alcohol poisoning or indirectly through alcohol-related accidents. There are life-altering consequences to alcohol that people just gloss over, and I think it's wrong; most people just treat getting drunk as a part of growing up.

So, I do believe alcohol is bad for everyone.

I don't drink at all. But I don't believe that alcohol is bad any more than I that think guns are bad. People make these things bad. There is nothing wrong with having one or two glasses of wine to unwind. It also has health benefits. And this is coming from someone who hates seeing anyone drunk. It repulses me.