The Rebelution's Modesty Survey

[tehgoobster]

The women who dress like this are the object of loathing for these guys--yes, they lust but they also loathe.

It seems like a Madonna/Whore Complex sort of thing, doesn't it?

[thoughtful]

The "modesty survey" pisses me off for any number of reasons, but my biggest issue today is the assumption that women's behavior (bending down, etc.) needs to be moderated. Um, if I just need to pick something up off the floor, I'm not thinking about the state of your c*ck. Just saying. Wouldn't it be somewhat immodest of me to think about men's genitals all the time? Yeah.

The other thing is that I think that survey "proved" that some men are attracted to some women. And that they find some types of clothing appealing. I'm SHOCKED by this revelation, SHOCKED, I tell you.

We need a Claude Rains smiley. In the meantime, this will have to do:

Oh, and I didn't know about "hotlinking" until this thread. I shall save pics to a free hosting site before posting, from now on.

[thoughtful]

This makes me want to bend over away from him and then cut a fart.

I wouldn't be surprised to see that it went on:

Girls, please don't move your fingers, or blink, or breathe . . .

[Patsy]

I wouldn't do that, and here's why. The women who dress like this are the object of loathing for these guys--yes, they lust but they also loathe. That's a nice rape-fueling combo there. Also, I don't want their opinions to dictate how I dress either way. I don't want these guys' attention at ALL.

Although I still want to fart in their general direction.

A very succinct summary of the absolute contempt inherent to the 'modesty standards' writings and surveys.

[wtfrenchtoast]

Question about whether men show less respect to women who dress immodestly:

When I see an immodestly dressed girl, I am forced to think of her as an object rather than a human being created in God's Image.

Forced? Forced by what? Your own mind, that's what. You just see a woman as a collection of body parts rather than a person and that disgusts me. I am not an 'object' no matter what I wear, so the fact that you see me as one is NOT my problem. Take responsiblity for your thoughts.

ETA: Same question:

I often comment to my buddies when we see a man disrespecting a scantly clad woman in a movie or even or in real life "how does she expect not to be treated like that, wearing something like that?"

:shock:

I can hardly respond coherently to this. It's one short step from this attitude to, "Raped? That bitch had it comin', look how she was dressed".

[AnnoDomini]

Debrand is referring to the fact that in the original "survey" these guys said that even their sisters and mothers could defraud them by "immodest" dressing . :shock: After we snarked on that here at FJ, those remarks disappeared from their site.

I understand that part; what I don't follow is why this proves something and what that something is.

I'm not being obtuse or defensive--just... well, I'm having a blonde moment.

[AnnoDomini]

Question about whether men show less respect to women who dress immodestly:

Forced? Forced by what? Your own mind, that's what. You just see a woman as a collection of body parts rather than a person and that disgusts me. I am not an 'object' no matter what I wear, so the fact that you see me as one is NOT my problem. Take responsiblity for your thoughts.

ETA: Same question:

:shock:

I can hardly respond coherently to this. It's one short step from this attitude to, "Raped? That bitch had it comin', look how she was dressed".

Oh UGH. Yes, I noticed that one. NO, stupid boy, you're not FORCED. Grow some balls and acknowledge that YOU'RE CHOOSING TO THINK THIS WAY. For the longest time I thought the only men who would share my core beliefs would also have a lot of annoying beliefs like that.

[sugaree]

I understand that part; what I don't follow is why this proves something and what that something is.

I'm not being obtuse or defensive--just... well, I'm having a blonde moment.

The fact that the Harris brothers removed that fucked-up question and its fucked-up answer indicates that the Harris brothers noticed that people were commenting on its total fucked-up-ed-ness. I mean, the Internet as a whole was like "Should we really consider opinions on female clothing and demeanor from young men who fantasize about sleeping with their mothers? In conclusion, holy crap, that's really weird."

I'm inclined to believe that they removed the evidence here to make their survey look more legit and less freaky.

[whirlygirly]

The question is still there. It's under "General/Other" and about halfway down the list.

[shesinsane]

I can hardly respond coherently to this. It's one short step from this attitude to, "Raped? That bitch had it comin', look how she was dressed".

Not only that, the whole discussion could lead to the conclusion that men are so tempted by women that, for the safety of the virtuous women, they should be kept apart at all times.

I don't know the official reason Iran has sex segragated busses, but I'd wager a whole lot of money that it has something to do with protecting the honor of women on the bus.

[debrand]

The question is still there. It's under "General/Other" and about halfway down the list.

Maybe I was wrong but I am pretty certain that at one point they had removed that question. I searched the site because I wanted to link to it on my blog. Perhaps they added it back because they realized that many people had already seen the results or, as I said before, I could have been wrong. If so, sorry. :oops:

Anyway, here are some of the results from that one question. Remember, the respondents are talking about their mothers and sisters.

Age 24 Maybe I am alone in this, but my “Hey! Female skin!†radar doesn’t stop to check DNA first

Age 23 A young lady, regardless of your relation to her, can be a stumbling block/temptation to a young man. Sort of a disgusting thought, but men, if not walking in the Spirit everday, can be wolves.

Ages 22 My younger sister, 14, is just recently becoming more of a young lady. It was not too long ago that I (for the first time) had to bring up her dress to her. It’s not a question of incest. It’s a question of instinct. I could probably think for a moment and realize that it’s my sister, but why be put in that position in the beginning

Ages 18 A girl is a girl. My sisters look like girls, and therefore they are potentially a temptation. Just because I have a relationship with them does not mean that their womanliness physically can not stir up wrong thoughts

Ages 22 It may be less of a problem, but it is still a problem. Family members are not completely unattractive to us; if they were, God would not have needed to explicitly ban incest.

Ages 18 Even my Mom can attract my attention if she isn’t careful.

Ages 25 Family is a part of a person. When someone in my family does something honorable or dishonorable, part of this, good or bad, is conferred upon me as well.

Ages 18 It makes me so angry! Whatever you say to your sister or mother will be inappropriate and they will get mad at you!

Ages 16 I radically disagree. It does not matter if the girl is my sister or not, it is still an assault on godly beauty, and my chastity. You see, what lust (and the whole industry that is producing all the magazines you see at the grocery store and worse) does, is it takes away the personhood of the object of lust. So then, immodesty in a mind surrendered to evil turns the woman into a thing — it removes personality, true beauty, being made in God’s image, and leaves only a thing that satisfies evil desires. Therefore, because of how destructive lust is it does matter that my sister and my best friend dress modestly.

[Guest Anonymous]

This makes me want to bend over away from him and then cut a fart.

A woman after my own heart.

[Boogalou]

These men who are so concerned about being defrauded by what they see women wearing or not wearing should pay heed to words of Jesus in Matthew 18:9:

And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

There, problem solved.

This is excellent. Everytime somebody posts about modesty in the future I am going to steal this from you. This has made my life!

[Kaylee]

Age 22 My younger sister, 14, is just recently becoming more of a young lady. It was not too long ago that I (for the first time) had to bring up her dress to her. It’s not a question of incest. It’s a question of instinct. I could probably think for a moment and realize that it’s my sister, but why be put in that position in the beginning

This one really bothers me - not only is she his sister, she's 14 and he's in his 20s. Something is seriously wrong there, especially since he's already mentioned the dress to her - I'm just hoping he couched it in general terms, instead of telling her he was turned on by it.

Most people have almost an instinct against incest, and studies have shown this is even present in people who are not related but have been raised as siblings. The people saying it's such a problem just seem like maybe the big focus on modesty & sex in their households has given them a warped view of sexuality.

Also, the more the community is focused on modesty, the more people will consider immodest, so I think an overemphasis on modesty and clothing probably feeds lust more than it does prevent it. I wore very modest dresses and full-time headcoverings for a while and, even then, there were some who would have issues with it. When it was just dresses, I had people tell me I needed tights or hose, then a cape or vest, then that cape dresses with short sleeves were immodest, or that I was creating a temptation by wearing my hair down under a veil instead of up in a bun and covered by a capp. For over a year, I was dressing more "Amish" than the Amish (longer skirts, tights instead of socks just in case), but I think the extra coverage attracted more attention and probably more interest of the "wonder what's under that?" variety than my average outfit now of a short-sleeve t-shirt or blouse and calf-length skirts or jeans.

[Rachel333]

"Ages 18 Even my Mom can attract my attention if she isn’t careful."

This is all kinds of messed up, so not really worth nitpicking, but "if she isn't careful"? That says volumes about that mindset. He's the one who needs to be careful, not his mom.

[celticmyst08]

I love how they conveniently ignore everything the Bible says about "if your eye causes you to sin, cut it out".

It's funny that they keep saying "women are beautiful, they are not objects" and yet their attitude treats women EXACTLY like objects. Ugh.

[Kishiria]

As I've commented in a number of discussions about "modesty", in Afghanistan, women are supposed to stay home and out of male sight to the point that shopping for food is a man's job. When women do need to leave the family compound, they have dress-length tunics with pajama-like pants underneath with a chador over it. That is the only thing that I believe would satisfy the "rebelution" types.

[shesinsane]

Most people have almost an instinct against incest, and studies have shown this is even present in people who are not related but have been raised as siblings. The people saying it's such a problem just seem like maybe the big focus on modesty & sex in their households has given them a warped view of sexuality.

What about a situation where the only girls around are family, so that's what the teen boys end up looking at. If you homeschool, home church, only associate with other Godly families as arranged and approved by your parents, it might be hard to find a girl outside of the family.

As I've commented in a number of discussions about "modesty", in Afghanistan, women are supposed to stay home and out of male sight to the point that shopping for food is a man's job. When women do need to leave the family compound, they have dress-length tunics with pajama-like pants underneath with a chador over it. That is the only thing that I believe would satisfy the "rebelution" types.

That's where it leads. If you are certain that all of your wrongful lusty feelings are caused by defrauding women, you've got to isolate yourself from them. However, you're a man, you can't just shut yourself away and still go to work and do your manly things. Better to keep your woman (to protect her from leering men) and all other women (to keep you from lusting with your eyes) hidden out of sight.

[snozzberry]

As I've commented in a number of discussions about "modesty", in Afghanistan, women are supposed to stay home and out of male sight to the point that shopping for food is a man's job. When women do need to leave the family compound, they have dress-length tunics with pajama-like pants underneath with a chador over it. That is the only thing that I believe would satisfy the "rebelution" types.

But I would say even that's not the extreme. I was reading Frank Shaeffer's latest book and he talks about an article that came out around this time last year where they mention the practice of adult men taking young boys as lovers. The jist of it is, since women are so unclean and unapproachable (have to be covered from head to toe after all) then what else can a man do?

The part that got me the most what this one:

Even after marriage, many men keep their boys, suggesting a loveless life at home. A favored Afghan expression goes: "Women are for children, boys are for pleasure." Fundamentalist imams, exaggerating a biblical passage on menstruation, teach that women are "unclean" and therefore distasteful. One married man even asked Cardinalli's team "how his wife could become pregnant," her report said. When that was explained, he "reacted with disgust" and asked, "How could one feel desire to be with a woman, who God has made unclean?"

[whirlygirly]

Maybe I was wrong but I am pretty certain that at one point they had removed that question. I searched the site because I wanted to link to it on my blog. Perhaps they added it back because they realized that many people had already seen the results or, as I said before, I could have been wrong. If so, sorry.

Oh, no problem! I was just browsing the site after reading this thread and happened across it.

The main thing I took away form reading the survey is- absolutely ANYTHING can be considered a "stumbling block" to someone, so you should really just relax and not worry about it so much.

That is, of course, if you were worried about it in the first place- speaking for myself, I could give a shit what these fundie boys think of me. And as for "guarding their hearts" or whatever BS- that's their problem. I'll wear what I want and let them use some of that self-control the Duggars are always going on about.

[Pond]

Maybe I was wrong but I am pretty certain that at one point they had removed that question. I searched the site because I wanted to link to it on my blog. Perhaps they added it back because they realized that many people had already seen the results or, as I said before, I could have been wrong. If so, sorry. :oops:

Anyway, here are some of the results from that one question. Remember, the respondents are talking about their mothers and sisters.

I remember that question from my lurking days on the old board. I remember reading the survey as well.

So many things wrong with those statements, where do I even begin.

[Marserin]

And of course they are surveying a group of guys at an age where a breeze can be "defrauding".

[loveandwar]

Ok, so I got to this statement: "It is okay for a girl to wear a revealing swimsuit (e.g., a bikini) if she wears a t-shirt over it." Most of the answers made me roll my eyes, but this one made me angry enough to want to reply:

Age 23

Assuming she wears something covering the lower half too. But why does a "modest" girl have a bikini?

Short answer: Because when your top is a different size than your bottom, one pieces don't fit, idiot!!!! :doh:

[Pearl]

So...does this survey address male modesty? (I didn't want to look at the site). Are females writing about how men need to cover up because they are causing lustful thoughts? I think men should wear burka like attire because pretty eyes, shapely ankles, and nice fingers are attractive to me.

[Shirley MacLaine]

So...does this survey address male modesty?

Nope.