The problem with full-time Torah study

[anjulibai]

It's a commandment to "go forth and multiply." People argue over what exactly that means (not all people are Quiverfull) but usually that means at least two kids, one kid of each sex if possible. There isn't a separate priestly class that gets exempted from that.

People do manage to get permission to limit family size due to emotional or economic reasons, but among the fundamentalist types it can be very controversial to the point that a lot of them (and particularly the ones not having much income!) are effectively quiverfull or quiverfull-lite.

But not every commandment has to be fulfilled by everyone. Some simply can't be, for a variety of reasons.

Just seems like the obvious solution to the whole thing.

[Ralar]

It's a commandment to "go forth and multiply." People argue over what exactly that means (not all people are Quiverfull) but usually that means at least two kids, one kid of each sex if possible. There isn't a separate priestly class that gets exempted from that.

People do manage to get permission to limit family size due to emotional or economic reasons, but among the fundamentalist types it can be very controversial to the point that a lot of them (and particularly the ones not having much income!) are effectively quiverfull or quiverfull-lite.

I think it is 3 kids: One to "replace" the wife, one to "replace" the husband, and an extra one to increase the population. Most of my OJ family members have at least 3 kids.

[Ralar]

Contrasted with them (in the US) are certain slices of the Yeshivish community, equally "Charedi" (if you can use that term in the US at all, but seems like lately people do self-claim it) but not Chassidic. There is a large community of them in Lakewood, NJ, around the "Lakewood Yeshiva" (BMG). That community started around the yeshiva, with the families of men in kollel (post-marriage endless religious study). And, it's grown.

I bring it up because there are endless conversations about people who are trying to get their kids into religious schools there (private, and yes, tuition is a huge issue) and the schools get really selective. But one of the things that a lot of schools are selective about is the father working - many places prefer kids whose fathers DO NOT WORK, they prefer the fathers to be learning only. And in marriage too, for people in a lot of those communities, it's a status thing to find a husband who will be doing the endless studying - marrying a "working boy" would be a step down.

The bolded portion is the gist of the original article I referenced.

[Dandruff]

What's the competition like among the men? Do they feel enormous pressure to try to be the best and brightest, for standing in the community and to snag women of choice? Are mediocre students encouraged to keep at it, even if their natural abilities might make them very successful in business?

[August]

It's looking an awful lot like regular fundamentalist picking and choosing. Have they found a commandment for these men to be ordered not to work? It's sounding a lot like the Christian patriarchy justifications that don't work for me at all - just another reason for certain men to justify doing what they want.

Fundies of any flavor are all the same.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Men are commanded to marry and have kids (women are not but are obviously involved).

Since study is regarded highly there is a bit of stigma for those who do not excel. In some circles going to work suggests that the guy could not make it studying.

[YPestis]

I don't understand this full time Torah studying situation at all from an economic standpoint. If someone wants to make studying a lifetime affair, that's great! Plenty of people do that. They are called professors and researchers. Plenty of people study religion as a fulltime job. But they get PAID. They enter a system which chooses the most talented to enter this type of work and pays a commiserate salary for it. The rest, sadly, enter other professions because society will only pay so many people to be English professors and vocal teachers.

If someone wants to devote to studying fulltime and can't/won't find something that pays well, then just stay celibate and suffer for your passion. It seems irresponsible to force children into poverty like this. The wives seem to suffer the worst, as they have to be birth large families and work to support everyone.

I feel that Israel needs to set up a system whereby a small chosen elite will be paid to study Torah full time, and tell the rest they need to get jobs (and mete out whatever consequences await those let bum around and let their kids starve...).

Scholars are often respected for their position, but society can only support so many people in one profession. It's childish to set yourself into a nonwage earning job fulltime and expect society to foot the bill for your family. I'm sure lots of people would love to paint and dance for a living, but most of us would be crazy to have five kids and expect society to pick up the tab while we make nothing "dancing for God".

[nausicaa]

Men are commanded to marry and have kids (women are not but are obviously involved).

Since study is regarded highly there is a bit of stigma for those who do not excel. In some circles going to work suggests that the guy could not make it studying.

What is their definition of "making it?" Are there oral or written exams? How does one stand out or gauge one's progress?

[2xx1xy1JD]

Thank you 2xx1xy1JD, that was really helpful. I guess my only remaining question is what factors made this full-time student situation "explode"?

1. The population moved to countries, like Israel and the United States, where they did not face persecution.

2. For the first time, they lived in countries that not only didn't try to kill them, but also had social benefits.

3. As the Jewish community in general grew wealthier in the post-war era, there were more potential donors. The Reichmann family, for example, contributed huge sums before they declared bankruptcy. You also had a post-war generation that was willing to fund religious studies because they saw it as a link to family that had perished and their own lost childhoods.

4. In Israel, the draft deferral meant that young men in the community would not be drafted - but only for so long as they kept up full-time study. So, indefinite study went from being the exception to the norm.

5. Birth rates increased in this community.

6. In the United States, the Haredi population is more likely to work and to be more integrated into the general Jewish population, but it has become increasingly popular to go to Israel for a study year after high school. There, more and more students are exposed to the more rigid Israeli Haredim.

7. As simple mathematical realities become obvious, you see 2 reactions. One is a call to reality, encouraging guys to prepare for employment. The second is a backlash, demonizing the first group and engaging in a certain amount of magical thinking. Translated from Yinglish babble, it goes something like this: "Well, yes, according to the laws of nature, this sort of lifestyle IS impossible to sustain...and yet, we miraculously have enough to somehow make it through the month! This shows that if your faith is strong enough, God will provide." The implication is that if something is lacking, or if you have perfectly reasonable concerns that it may be impossible to support your family like this, then it's a sign that you are not yet on a high enough spiritual level. It's sort of like The Emperor's New Clothes - if you say that the system is naked, they say that you must be pointing out your own flaws.

[salex]

I have a relative on my husband's side who would be perfect for this. He spends his life learning various things off the internet--full time-- and in the last 5 years has become a major follower of Ron Paul, and sliding from his previously claimed atheism / agnosticism to dabbling in fundie light land. His wife is the stable income of the family, and from what I can tell does not have dinner waiting for her when she gets home, or clean clothes, etc. To be in a population that would respect his lifestyle might make a conversion worth it to him.... ; 0

[nausicaa]

1. The population moved to countries, like Israel and the United States, where they did not face persecution.

2. For the first time, they lived in countries that not only didn't try to kill them, but also had social benefits.

3. As the Jewish community in general grew wealthier in the post-war era, there were more potential donors. The Reichmann family, for example, contributed huge sums before they declared bankruptcy. You also had a post-war generation that was willing to fund religious studies because they saw it as a link to family that had perished and their own lost childhoods.

4. In Israel, the draft deferral meant that young men in the community would not be drafted - but only for so long as they kept up full-time study. So, indefinite study went from being the exception to the norm.

5. Birth rates increased in this community.

6. In the United States, the Haredi population is more likely to work and to be more integrated into the general Jewish population, but it has become increasingly popular to go to Israel for a study year after high school. There, more and more students are exposed to the more rigid Israeli Haredim.

7. As simple mathematical realities become obvious, you see 2 reactions. One is a call to reality, encouraging guys to prepare for employment. The second is a backlash, demonizing the first group and engaging in a certain amount of magical thinking. Translated from Yinglish babble, it goes something like this: "Well, yes, according to the laws of nature, this sort of lifestyle IS impossible to sustain...and yet, we miraculously have enough to somehow make it through the month! This shows that if your faith is strong enough, God will provide." The implication is that if something is lacking, or if you have perfectly reasonable concerns that it may be impossible to support your family like this, then it's a sign that you are not yet on a high enough spiritual level. It's sort of like The Emperor's New Clothes - if you say that the system is naked, they say that you must be pointing out your own flaws.

Thank you! Number 7 is makng me think they might really get along with Abigail. Or maybe Abigail could make Hasidic Judaism her new "thing."

[countressrascal]

FIL and BIL are full time students of the Torah, we are always asked to support them especially when my SIL was pregnant. My SIL is an attorney

with a small firm, they have 5 children and I think that they would have had more except the last one is special needs. She never told me that is why they stopped however there has been family discussions regarding that is why. We are not close since I am Atheist Jew. Count tells stories about growing up in this situation that is why we only have 3 children instead the 14 like his family, he is the oldest. They owned a small electronic store that the family ran it except for his father who was always studying and hanging out with other men. His mother, to this day, supports the family, somehow they purchased the building that the store was in which they lived above along with two other apartments, my BIL lives in one. They have income, but they still ask us for money all the time. My FIL told me that he deserved to study the Torah all day because of what happened to him during WWII. Since his family is still every involved, I have a couple of nieces what to marry these nut cases, all of them are studying for professions. It doesn't make sense to me. This is why we live 3000 miles from them.

[anjulibai]

Men are commanded to marry and have kids (women are not but are obviously involved).

Since study is regarded highly there is a bit of stigma for those who do not excel. In some circles going to work suggests that the guy could not make it studying.

See, even if they are commanded to marry, why not go with the out someone mentioned above, which is 3 children. That's at least manageable on one salary.

[Dandruff]

Thanks 2xx1xy1JD for your detailed explanations. I have a few more questions (anyone feel free to chime in, of course):

- How, in the US, does the haredi population get their medical needs handled without going broke? Do they have something similar to the Samaritan thing the Christian fundies use or do they get 'regular' medical insurance? Do they have doctors within the community who charge reasonable amounts and take cash? What happens if there's a sudden, very expensive situation; e.g., major surgery, the need for long-term care, etc. - especially if it's for the one who works?

- How does the community decide which of their dedicated scholars should be leaders of the community? Is there some sort of tribunal or is it more informal or political?

- Are the 'trades' typically kept within families; e.g., mohels and butchers? Is it acceptable for boys within families whose trades are considered essential to go into those trades vs. study ad infinitum, or is it still considered preferable to keep studying?

[Arete]

The Haredim in the US use the same methods of taking care of medical bills as the mainstream~they either have insurance through jobs, buying individual policies, or use Medicaid if they qualify. They are different from Christian fundies in that they have no issue with regular insurance policies or the ACA, They do not oppose social welfare programs to feed their kids or obtain medical care,;