Bill Nye and Ken Ham Creation/Evolution Debate

[formergothardite]

Ken's suit really doesn't fit him well at all.

[Ralar]

[Trynn]

As promised, the authors of my creation science books and where they got their degrees, if listed. All of these books are published by Answers in Genesis, of which I believe Ken Ham is the founder.

Jason Lisle, PHD in Astrophysics from the University of Colorado

David Menton, PHD in Cell biology from Brown University. Ass. Professor of Anatomy at Washington University School of Medicine

Gary Parker, ex-evolutionist/atheist, (it literally lists that one first) EDD(what's that?) from Ball State in biology/geology.

David A Dewitt, BS in Biochemistry from Michigan State University, PHD in neuroscience from Case Western Research University

AP Galling, Bachelors degree in Political science from Miami Univeristy in Oxford, Ohio (wait, a poly-sci major? What the hell's he doing writing about the missing link?)

Bodie Hodge, BS and MS in MEchanical engineering, Southern Illinois University at Carbondale (writing a book on the age of the earth.)

If someone really wants, I COULD go on, but it's late and I'm tired and recovering from the flu, and, those are only half the books on my bookshelf. It'd take a while to do them all.

This is just enough to give you guys a bit of an idea on where he finds these scientists. I'm not familiar with all these Universities, but I know that Michigan State University is NOT a fundie, or even religious school. So not all of these people come from fundy universities.

[Lillybee]

Bill Nye will be discussing the debate on Lawrence O'Donnel's MSNBC program any minute now.

[thoughtful]

edited to ask if I just heard the pharse "atheist lobby?" You guys have a lobby?

Or, for a simpler approach:

[GeoBQn]

Smuggar's twitter response:

Josh Duggar â€@joshduggar 4m

Those of us who accept the biblical view of creation do not dismiss science, but we do not believe in the religion of macro evolution.

Josh Duggar â€@joshduggar 8m

sci·ence noun \ˈsī-ən(t)s\ : knowledge about or study of the natural world based on facts learned through experiments and observation @AiG

Retweeted by Josh Duggar

Ryaη NicнoLs â€@JetSetterRyan 2h

Bill Nye got #pwned by @ClimateDepot's Marc Morano (video:http://www.climatedepot.com/2014/01/28/watch-now-morano-v-bill-nye-climate-debate-on-fox-with-stossel-nye-cites-hockey-stick-as-proof-says-politicians-can-fix-potholes-the-climate-morano/ …) & I expect no better from @TheScienceGuy tonight #NyevsHam

Retweeted by Josh Duggar

Dan Pennell â€@pennell 1h

@joshduggar @CreationMuseum @AiG Ken is doing a good job tonight.

[Cleopatra7]

I didn't watch the debate, and based on what I'm reading here, I'm glad I didn't. All these fundie debates are the same, where the fundie uses the debate as a preaching platform and completely ignores the debate aspect. The same thing happened when Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron "debated" the Rational Response team four or five years ago, and I assumed that this would be more of the same.

[artdecades]

As promised, the authors of my creation science books and where they got their degrees, if listed. All of these books are published by Answers in Genesis, of which I believe Ken Ham is the founder.

Jason Lisle, PHD in Astrophysics from the University of Colorado

David Menton, PHD in Cell biology from Brown University. Ass. Professor of Anatomy at Washington University School of Medicine

Gary Parker, ex-evolutionist/atheist, (it literally lists that one first) EDD(what's that?) from Ball State in biology/geology.

David A Dewitt, BS in Biochemistry from Michigan State University, PHD in neuroscience from Case Western Research University

AP Galling, Bachelors degree in Political science from Miami Univeristy in Oxford, Ohio (wait, a poly-sci major? What the hell's he doing writing about the missing link?)

Bodie Hodge, BS and MS in MEchanical engineering, Southern Illinois University at Carbondale (writing a book on the age of the earth.)

If someone really wants, I COULD go on, but it's late and I'm tired and recovering from the flu, and, those are only half the books on my bookshelf. It'd take a while to do them all.

This is just enough to give you guys a bit of an idea on where he finds these scientists. I'm not familiar with all these Universities, but I know that Michigan State University is NOT a fundie, or even religious school. So not all of these people come from fundy universities.

Do you mean EdD instead of EDD? That is a Doctorate of Education

[Trynn]

Do you mean EdD instead of EDD? That is a Doctorate of Education

Yes, I didn't know the lower case made such a difference. Thank you for clarifying.

[Mecca]

It is being declared that Nye won the debate. Now we will get an influx of "Of course, Nye is declared the winner. No liberal media outlet would ever declare a Christian a winner."

[anjulibai]

As promised, the authors of my creation science books and where they got their degrees, if listed. All of these books are published by Answers in Genesis, of which I believe Ken Ham is the founder.

Jason Lisle, PHD in Astrophysics from the University of Colorado

David Menton, PHD in Cell biology from Brown University. Ass. Professor of Anatomy at Washington University School of Medicine

Gary Parker, ex-evolutionist/atheist, (it literally lists that one first) EDD(what's that?) from Ball State in biology/geology.

David A Dewitt, BS in Biochemistry from Michigan State University, PHD in neuroscience from Case Western Research University

AP Galling, Bachelors degree in Political science from Miami Univeristy in Oxford, Ohio (wait, a poly-sci major? What the hell's he doing writing about the missing link?)

Bodie Hodge, BS and MS in MEchanical engineering, Southern Illinois University at Carbondale (writing a book on the age of the earth.)

If someone really wants, I COULD go on, but it's late and I'm tired and recovering from the flu, and, those are only half the books on my bookshelf. It'd take a while to do them all.

This is just enough to give you guys a bit of an idea on where he finds these scientists. I'm not familiar with all these Universities, but I know that Michigan State University is NOT a fundie, or even religious school. So not all of these people come from fundy universities.

The story behind Jason Lisle, from what I've heard in the astronomical community (my husband is an astronomer), is that he got his degree specifically so he could prove that the astronomical community is wrong about the age of the universe and the Big Bang. He got his Ph.D basically by pretending he agreed with everything. I don't recall hearing what his dissertation was in, but it's possible to do something in astronomy that doesn't make you actually deal with those tricky questions relating to the origins of reality.

I saw a talk several years ago by an astronomer who, with a bunch of other astronomers, went to the Creation Museum to talk with Lisle. They set up an appointment with him. When the astronomers got there, Lisle refused to show. They sent in a biologist who only wanted to talk about evolution, which, obviously, the astronomers weren't qualified to talk about anymore than many of us on here.

I didn't watch this, but did they discuss astronomy at all? Or was it all focused on evolution? I've noticed most fundies seem to ignore astronomy when discussing the age and origins of the universe.

As an aside, an EDD is a doctor of education. I'm guessing the guy studied teaching biology and geology, not the subjects themselves.

[artdecades]

The story behind Jason Lisle, from what I've heard in the astronomical community (my husband is an astronomer), is that he got his degree specifically so he could prove that the astronomical community is wrong about the age of the universe and the Big Bang. He got his Ph.D basically by pretending he agreed with everything. I don't recall hearing what his dissertation was in, but it's possible to do something in astronomy that doesn't make you actually deal with those tricky questions relating to the origins of reality.

I saw a talk several years ago by an astronomer who, with a bunch of other astronomers, went to the Creation Museum to talk with Lisle. They set up an appointment with him. When the astronomers got there, Lisle refused to show. They sent in a biologist who only wanted to talk about evolution, which, obviously, the astronomers weren't qualified to talk about anymore than many of us on here.

I didn't watch this, but did they discuss astronomy at all? Or was it all focused on evolution? I've noticed most fundies seem to ignore astronomy when discussing the age and origins of the universe.

As an aside, an EDD is a doctor of education. I'm guessing the guy studied teaching biology and geology, not the subjects themselves.

I have access to the ProQuest Dissertation and Thesis databases and Lisle's dissertation is titled "Probing the Dynamics of Solar Supergranulation and its Interaction with Magnetism."

Since I am not a science person and this makes no sense to me, here is the abstract

The sun exhibits turbulent convection on multiple spatial and temporal scales. We assess the properties of supergranulation (the largest readily observed convection scale) and its interaction with other scales of motion in the solar convection zone. The Michelson Doppler Imager (MDI) aboard the SOHO spacecraft provides Doppler and magnetogram full-disk images at rapid (1 min) cadence, undistorted by Earth's atmosphere and uninterrupted by a day-night cycle. This permits tracking specific solar regions for continuous study over intervals as long as 8 days with a spatial resolution previously unattainable.

We have applied the local correlation tracking (LCT) algorithm to full-disk MDI data from the years 1999 and 2001 in order to study near-surface solar flows. The LCT algorithm exhibits a disk-centered convergence artifact due to unresolved granulation. We discuss the cause and provide possible solutions to this problem. Once the artifact is ameliorated, we can detect large-scale flows comparable to solar subsurface weather reported from helioseismic studies. We find that supergranulation is characterized by outflow sites surrounded by narrower convergence lanes, with these cellular patterns filling the solar surface. We are able to identify and track approximately 40,000 supergranules as they merge, fragment, and evolve over their lifetimes. Small-scale magnetic elements appear to be passively advected from the interiors of supergranules to convergence lanes at their periphery, often to be collected at the network interstices. We confirm that the average supergranule lifetime is approximately 25 hr, yet we have also detected some very long-lived supergranules whose lifetimes may exceed 8 days.

We have discovered a weak but persistent alignment of solar supergranulation in the direction parallel to the solar rotation axis. The signature of this anisotropy is observed in multi-day temporal averages as well as in spatial and temporal spectral analyses. By studying the temporal duration, pattern propagation speed, and spatial modulation of the supergranular alignment, we find evidence for the existence of underlying giant cells of convection.

[doggie]

I think my favorite hamisim is the bible is literal except the parts that aren't or I don't want to be.

[Trynn]

I have access to the ProQuest Dissertation and Thesis databases and Lisle's dissertation is titled "Probing the Dynamics of Solar Supergranulation and its Interaction with Magnetism."

Since I am not a science person and this makes no sense to me, here is the abstract

Soooo what's all that mean in English?

That's interesting. I didn't know he refused to show up for an appointment. That's... Rude..

[PennySycamore]

None of those universities are fundamentalist. Even men with decent educations can be fed the bullshit that they need to believe in creationism if they're going to be good Xtians. It helps if they get "saved" during their formative years and are vulnerable to the stuff that The Navigators and such groups teach. (Note: I don't know what specifically the Navs teach about evolution, but I dare say that they take a more creationist POV.) My husband was like that. Got saved while at Davison and ran into some real whackos. I'm glad he never got full-time teaching position. He did, at least, believe in micro-evolution and an old-earth even if he didn't believe in macro-evolution. I really don't know what he holds with now, but he does maybe seem to be a little less invested in disproving evolution.

Most of the usual suspects like the late Duane Gish promoted as science laughably bad stuff.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/cre-error.html

http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/gish.html

[Boogalou]

Ken Ham says (an I paraphrase here): there's this book called the Bible and I don't know of any religion that has a book that outlines the creation of the universe, the creation of night and day, the creation of humans, etc.

Umm... maybe Judaism?

Ham's main (and non-religious) debating point seemed to be that just because things happen today at the rate that they do (the growth of trees, seasons, continental drift, the expansion of the universe, etc.) does not mean that they happened at the same rate in the past. Except for time, six days now was the exact same length as six days then, everything else changed.

[anjulibai]

Granules and supergranules (which last shorter than granules) are formed when hot gas from the lower levels of the sun's atmosphere rises up to the upper levels - they're convection cells. Lisle looked at how long they last, how fast they move and how they relate to larger gas/plasma flow patterns in the sun's outer layers.

He also talked about the role of magnetic fields. Which is funny, because there's a joke among undergrads and grad students in astronomy that if you want to show participation at a colloquium lecture, you ask what role magnetic fields play. No matter what the topic, it's guaranteed to make the lecturer think a bit, because magnetic fields ALWAYS play a role.

Basically, he picked a really theologically neutral area of astrophysics (the sun's atmosphere) to do his dissertation. Really and completely unsurprising.

BTW, yes, it was very rude of Lisle not to show up to the meeting. But it's obvious they can't truly refute anything in astronomy. How can they argue with the laws of physics?

[SallyDraper]

It is being declared that Nye won the debate. Now we will get an influx of "Of course, Nye is declared the winner. No liberal media outlet would ever declare a Christian a winner."

I think the real loser tonight is television for not airing this live. This would have been ratings gold and yes, I'm talking to you Cspan. You air every other debate on the planet, why not this.

[August]

Bob Jones University, where they hand out Doctorates like tic tacs.

There was a strategy by ICRto send creationists to get a phd so they could include it on their letterhead. I don't know how many are named Steve, though.

[marmalade]

Smuggar's twitter response:

The delusion is strong in this one. :lol:

[bionicmlle]

As promised, the authors of my creation science books and where they got their degrees, if listed. All of these books are published by Answers in Genesis, of which I believe Ken Ham is the founder.

Jason Lisle, PHD in Astrophysics from the University of Colorado

David Menton, PHD in Cell biology from Brown University. Ass. Professor of Anatomy at Washington University School of Medicine

Gary Parker, ex-evolutionist/atheist, (it literally lists that one first) EDD(what's that?) from Ball State in biology/geology.

David A Dewitt, BS in Biochemistry from Michigan State University, PHD in neuroscience from Case Western Research University

AP Galling, Bachelors degree in Political science from Miami Univeristy in Oxford, Ohio (wait, a poly-sci major? What the hell's he doing writing about the missing link?)

Bodie Hodge, BS and MS in MEchanical engineering, Southern Illinois University at Carbondale (writing a book on the age of the earth.)

If someone really wants, I COULD go on, but it's late and I'm tired and recovering from the flu, and, those are only half the books on my bookshelf. It'd take a while to do them all.

This is just enough to give you guys a bit of an idea on where he finds these scientists. I'm not familiar with all these Universities, but I know that Michigan State University is NOT a fundie, or even religious school. So not all of these people come from fundy universities.

For a PhD in this BS you can also go here: grisda.org/about-gri/

Interestingly, the SDA church very recently posted an addendum to the fundamental beliefs further clarifying that to be a true believer adventist, youMUST believe in a LITERAL seven day creation, none of this creation/evolution amalgam bullshit.

[C Potter-Pirbright]

I just finished watching the debate, time differences and all that. I'm glad I did. I've always enjoyed listening to Bill Nye and today was no different. I do however have a headache must be from all that eye rolling from listening to Ham.

I did notice that Bill Nye, appealed a lot to the audience and the viewers, at home, online and the tax payers, to pay attention to think and to insist on funding and learning that we need science in order to not be left behind . Even if he was preaching to the crowd , if he got a few kids at home, who were listening with their parents to think and consider , I get the feeling he'd consider that a win.

As for Ham's declaration that no one else has a text detailing the rights and wrongs and history of the world, I have no words, I cannot with such people.

[Stephanie66]

OK, watched the debate (if you can call it that) on Billnye.com.

Ham said lots of stupid things, but probably the stupidest was that Continental Drift was from the flood and that the stars going farther apart was just because...God. Huh?

I am really in my bubble, because I honestly had NO IDEA that there were people who believed that 8 people built an actual arc and actually put (by Ham's account) thousands of animals on it and floated around for a year. It is not at all logical in any way that this occurred. And a bridge that the kangaroos hopped on over to Australia on?

I am unfamiliar with the whole Creationism thing, but the intellectual laziness was astounding. Just, "Because...God" and that's good enough? I completely agree with Bill Nye that if we all took that approach, there would be no one studying or creating or doing much of anything.

[Meeka]

I watched the debate last night and I was surprised with Ham. I expected him to come up with answers on why he believed that there is a young earth but instead all he pulled was the "Historical Science" and "Observational Science". Does his brain really pull the "If he haven't seen it in our life time. there is no point looking at clues in the current time to try and find out what happened previously" thought. For a man who has spent his life campaigning for creation, I expected better answers.

I also thought that his response to what he would need to disprove his theory that God created the world as shown in Genesis very revealing. He very simply put it that it would be impossible and that he is absolutely right and could not be wrong. That shows that he is not a scientist and does not understand science.

It was the first time that I have ever seen Bill Nye and I like him. You could tell that he is use to speaking to the general population about science so that is would be understandable to the general population. While I thought at times that Bill may have lacked some on very specifics (I don't think that he is an evolutionist) he would be able relate to the general public's understanding. If they had gotten another evolutionist, ie an academic, the specifics and complex science may have bogged down the talk.

I enjoyed it but I really did think that the creation theory had more"evidence" as crazy as that evidence would seem to me

[FlorenceHamilton]

I am still mulling over the discussions of both men. I thought that it was interesting that Ken Ham used a great deal of "testimony" from his small cluster of people with science backgrounds who ascribe to young earth creationism. Tesimony would be very compelling to Ham's crowd and pretty meaningless, to Nye's crowd. Bill Nye did not respond to it because it meant nothing to him that 4 guys with science degrees believe in this.

At the end of the day, I don't think that either of the men was in the least bit interested in the other. Ham used the debate as an opportunity to preach Christianity. He wanted to assure the parents and children that the future generations can still make awesome technology and still believe in Creation. He wanted to capture the minds of the believers to that they would not be swayed by the compelling evidence that the answers are not all in Genesis. Bill Nye, on the other hand was speaking to children. He wanted to stimulate their minds....even just a little bit...to question the pat answers of the bible. If he could spark the intellectual curiosity of a few children raised in fundamentalist thought, then he considers it a win.

Sothey both kind of won. Somwere out there, there are young people in Fundiedom who drank more Kool Aide from the trough of Ham and felt content. And there are young people who were stimulated to ponder the universe in a new way.

Like Nye, I hope there is a young person raised in a fundamentalist home who now wonders new things...and starts a journey to find out.