Duggars, Duggars & More Duggars - General Discussion Part 3

[Miggy]

I don't get it either, Becket70.

Do you really want the biblical explanation? Here it goes; we are all sinners. Maybe you killed a million people or maybe you just hated your neighbour but either way, you have sinned. The punishment for sin is death but for those who believe in Christ, he has taken our punishment and we will go to heaven. Parable = A man has two servants, one with a large debt and one with a small debt. The master forgives both debts. The one with the smaller debt complains and the master says "Should I forgive you your small debt but only forgive him part of his and make him pay the rest back, even though neither of you are capable of repaying anything at all? That would make me a pretty nasty master. No, I will forgive you both all you debt." So yes, what you say is correct. It is all about belief and the acceptance that Christ died for us and took our punishment for us.

As a Christian it is the area I find most challenging. How can millions of Jewish & Muslim believers, who follow the same God possibly be sentenced to death just because they don't believe Jesus was the son of God. I have no answer. My hope is that, as we are all working for ancient and definitely fallable documents to understand God, that maybe we have all got it slightly wrong and that we will all actually be ok. If God can forgive mass murder and white lies, I hope he will forgive us not properly understanding his commands.

[JellyHope]

Do you really want the biblical explanation? Here it goes; we are all sinners. Maybe you killed a million people or maybe you just hated your neighbour but either way, you have sinned. The punishment for sin is death but for those who believe in Christ, he has taken our punishment and we will go to heaven. Parable = A man has two servants, one with a large debt and one with a small debt. The master forgives both debts. The one with the smaller debt complains and the master says "Should I forgive you your small debt but only forgive him part of his and make him pay the rest back, even though neither of you are capable of repaying anything at all? That would make me a pretty nasty master. No, I will forgive you both all you debt." So yes, what you say is correct. It is all about belief and the acceptance that Christ died for us and took our punishment for us.

As a Christian it is the area I find most challenging. How can millions of Jewish & Muslim believers, who follow the same God possibly be sentenced to death just because they don't believe Jesus was the son of God. I have no answer. My hope is that, as we are all working for ancient and definitely fallable documents to understand God, that maybe we have all got it slightly wrong and that we will all actually be ok. If God can forgive mass murder and white lies, I hope he will forgive us not properly understanding his commands.

Why do you have to just hope? Why can't that be what you believe?

[PennySycamore]

Miggy,

I know that's the explanation, but it just doesn't make a lick of sense to me. Not.A.Lick. It's one of the reasons I'm now atheist.

[marmalade]

Her legal name is Orpah. Most people mispronounced her name so she called herself Oprah.

I've heard her tell the Oprah misspelling story countless times. I'll take that as the truth.

[church_of_dog]

Do you really want the biblical explanation? Here it goes; we are all sinners. Maybe you killed a million people or maybe you just hated your neighbour but either way, you have sinned. The punishment for sin is death but for those who believe in Christ, he has taken our punishment and we will go to heaven.

Here's one piece of this that I don't get -- is heaven supposed to be better than life? Because if the punishment for sin is death, but you believe, then you go to heaven after you die, you have still died, thus you have still been punished.

Then: if heaven IS better than life, then why all the opposition to abortion?

Also, I do not get the whole concept of Christ taking people's punishment for them -- why would he do that? Punishment (at least the non-cruel kind) is useful, because it teaches you something. For what purpose would someone take someone else's punishment? And then to follow, if Christ had some compelling reason to take people's punishment, why do it only for the believers? Surely among all the perceived failings that humans can have, from his view, being a non-believer who is an otherwise good person must be a very minor failing -- so why "help" only those folks who believe?

I do not believe in a god or any sentient "higher power", but if there was such a thing, it would not make sense to me for such a power to really care whether or not humans believe he/she exists.

[Kira]

I've heard her tell the Oprah misspelling story countless times. I'll take that as the truth.

I googled it, and Orpah is the name on her birth certificate. In an 1991 interview she says most people mispronounced her name, so she became Oprah.

[marmalade]

See, I just googled it and it says that Orpah was misspelled on the birth certificate (as Oprah). People kept calling her that, so she never bothered to correct it. Kind of like Michael Bates, I guess.

[Miggy]

I'll try to answer all of those questions but please be aware that I am a very liberal Christian and many would disagree with my interpretations.

To JellyHope, I believe God will forgive Christians for our misunderstandings of his law. For everyone else? I want to believe but I also believe you have to accept Christ and they kind of rule each other out. That is why I say hope rather believe. I can't explain it better than that - sorry. Just for comparison, my equally liberal husband thinks as I do but his fundy relatives say no hope for any non-Christian and some even think MrMiggy & I are pushing things.

To PennySycamore, Fair enough. Half of Christianity doesn't make sense to me either. I just continue to trust, pray and believe it will all work out ok. Two different approaches to the same problem, I guess.

To church_of_dog, Die is maybe an unfortunate choice of word. Die & be away from the presence of God? It's clumsy but maybe it should have been used. The punishment for sin is that you will spend eternity without God and as we believe all good things come from God, that would mean spending eternity without all good things. On the abortion thing, I actually have no problem with it and have had one myself. As far as I'm concerned I had a group of cells removed. If life really does begin at conception the babies would go straight to heaven so the only concern should be for the mothers soul.

To anyone who wants to make a statement amount being in heaven with Jim Bob, Dougie & Zsu, I believe that will all work out too. For a start, when we disagree on the rules we can go to the boss and ask directly instead of bickering amongst ourselves.

[Becket70]

I'll try to answer all of those questions but please be aware that I am a very liberal Christian and many would disagree with my interpretations.

To JellyHope, I believe God will forgive Christians for our misunderstandings of his law. For everyone else? I want to believe but I also believe you have to accept Christ and they kind of rule each other out. That is why I say hope rather believe. I can't explain it better than that - sorry. Just for comparison, my equally liberal husband thinks as I do but his fundy relatives say no hope for any non-Christian and some even think MrMiggy & I are pushing things.

To PennySycamore, Fair enough. Half of Christianity doesn't make sense to me either. I just continue to trust, pray and believe it will all work out ok. Two different approaches to the same problem, I guess.

To church_of_dog, Die is maybe an unfortunate choice of word. Die & be away from the presence of God? It's clumsy but maybe it should have been used. The punishment for sin is that you will spend eternity without God and as we believe all good things come from God, that would mean spending eternity without all good things. On the abortion thing, I actually have no problem with it and have had one myself. As far as I'm concerned I had a group of cells removed. If life really does begin at conception the babies would go straight to heaven so the only concern should be for the mothers soul.

To anyone who wants to make a statement amount being in heaven with Jim Bob, Dougie & Zsu, I believe that will all work out too. For a start, when we disagree on the rules we can go to the boss and ask directly instead of bickering amongst ourselves.

I really do appreciate your explanations. As a person who is not Christian, a lot of this has been a mystery to me. One last question and I promise I am done with this: What does Christianity do about newborns and young babies who die? For instance, the Duggar's baby, Shalom...born a sinner but obviously unable to decide to accept Christ. There must be something to assure the parents their baby has gone to heaven.

[fullmetalheart]

Many Christians believe in the "age of accountability", that is, unborn children or young babies/children who die are accepted into Heaven because they are not old enough to accept Christ as their Saviour.

[Rescinded and Mended]

I had no idea there were so many various versions of the Oprah naming story. If one of us ever appears on her show for an interview, we should totally ask which story is true. :lol:

[bostonista]

Wait, who is Michael? One of Smugger's kids? Doesn't he also have a son Michael?

[FloraDoraDolly]

Wait, who is Michael? One of Smugger's kids? Doesn't he also have a son Michael?

Yes, Josh has a son named Michael, but the above post refers to the oldest Bates daughter, Michael, also known as Michaella.

[bostonista]

Yes, Josh has a son named Michael, but the above post refers to the oldest Bates daughter, Michael, also known as Michaella.

Oh! okay! Thanks for the clarification!

[Miggy]

I really do appreciate your explanations. As a person who is not Christian, a lot of this has been a mystery to me. One last question and I promise I am done with this: What does Christianity do about newborns and young babies who die? For instance, the Duggar's baby, Shalom...born a sinner but obviously unable to decide to accept Christ. There must be something to assure the parents their baby has gone to heaven.

Jesus said you have to be like a little child to come to God. I've always taken that to mean kids are born innocent (and therefore we need to be like them). It would then follow that a baby would go straight to heaven. Don't quote me and perhaps there are Catholics who can provide more info but I think in the Catholic Church you aren't considered a sinner in the adult sense until you are seven. I find that fundy belief of kids being born in sin and the ATI belief of inheriting parents sins quite contradictory to what I read in the bible and even to what they claim themselves about meeting their miscarried/stillborn children in heaven.

Just to take this conversation even further off topic ... I really love talking to (and I stress TALKING not arguing or trying to convert) atheists as it makes me rethink and question my own beliefs. I think it is one of the biggest flaws on fundyism - they never stop and think about what it is they preach and never really compare their own beliefs to those of others.

[PennySycamore]

I think Catholics teach that kids can't commit mortal sins (the ones you would need to confess) until the child reaches the age of reason, usually around 7 years. For unbaptized babies and young children that die, at one time they were considered to have gone to "Limbo", which is not Heaven but souls there experience natural, earthly joy and not the Beatific joy of Heaven. It was explained to me, though, that the idea of Limbo was sort of a misunderstanding. The question was considered by theologians back in the Middle Ages and the conclusion was that we just didn't know and the question was put in limbo. The Church never meant to teach that unbaptized babies were in Limbo! Nowadays, the teaching is more clearly that all babies who die go to Heaven. Nonetheless, we still had our premie baptized while she was still in the NICU. A priest came to the hospital to baptize Katherine, but anyone could have done it and the Church isn't fussy about the method. If the intent is to confer Baptism, then Baptism is conferred.

[Miggy]

Thanks for that correction. I remember about limbo as soon as you mentioned it. Some of my previously Orthodox fundy relatives recently converted to Catholicism. Until they did I knew very little Catholic belief but now I am studying hard. If you don't respect every one of their beliefs they are very quick to cut you off (my BiL, not the church!) and while I wouldn't care too much about my BiL, I would be devastated not to see my nieces & nephews.

[JellyHope]

I'll try to answer all of those questions but please be aware that I am a very liberal Christian and many would disagree with my interpretations.

To JellyHope, I believe God will forgive Christians for our misunderstandings of his law. For everyone else? I want to believe but I also believe you have to accept Christ and they kind of rule each other out. That is why I say hope rather believe. I can't explain it better than that - sorry. Just for comparison, my equally liberal husband thinks as I do but his fundy relatives say no hope for any non-Christian and some even think MrMiggy & I are pushing things.

To PennySycamore, Fair enough. Half of Christianity doesn't make sense to me either. I just continue to trust, pray and believe it will all work out ok. Two different approaches to the same problem, I guess.

To church_of_dog, Die is maybe an unfortunate choice of word. Die & be away from the presence of God? It's clumsy but maybe it should have been used. The punishment for sin is that you will spend eternity without God and as we believe all good things come from God, that would mean spending eternity without all good things. On the abortion thing, I actually have no problem with it and have had one myself. As far as I'm concerned I had a group of cells removed. If life really does begin at conception the babies would go straight to heaven so the only concern should be for the mothers soul.

To anyone who wants to make a statement amount being in heaven with Jim Bob, Dougie & Zsu, I believe that will all work out too. For a start, when we disagree on the rules we can go to the boss and ask directly instead of bickering amongst ourselves.

Good enough answer for me! Thanks, Miggy.

[church_of_dog]

Yes, for me too, thanks for the explanations!

[ljohnson2006]

I hope that if Jessa does end up engaged and married to Ben, that she has more of a say in her marriage. She doesn't need to look at Ben like he's God's gift to the green Earth. The glossy eyed thing that J'Chelle and Anna do is scary. It's not cute. Don't be like them, Jessa. You're smarter than that.

[gustava]

I think Catholics teach that kids can't commit mortal sins (the ones you would need to confess) until the child reaches the age of reason, usually around 7 years. For unbaptized babies and young children that die, at one time they were considered to have gone to "Limbo", which is not Heaven but souls there experience natural, earthly joy and not the Beatific joy of Heaven. It was explained to me, though, that the idea of Limbo was sort of a misunderstanding. The question was considered by theologians back in the Middle Ages and the conclusion was that we just didn't know and the question was put in limbo. The Church never meant to teach that unbaptized babies were in Limbo! Nowadays, the teaching is more clearly that all babies who die go to Heaven. Nonetheless, we still had our premie baptized while she was still in the NICU. A priest came to the hospital to baptize Katherine, but anyone could have done it and the Church isn't fussy about the method. If the intent is to confer Baptism, then Baptism is conferred.

That intent conveys the deed is interesting. I know a Catholic woman whose daughter is married to a Jew; she converted, and had a bris, the latter of which nauseated the grandmother. In the hospital after the birth, the grandmother "baptized" her grandson, and while at her daughter's home, holding her grandson, I saw her make the sign of the cross over him.

[Arete]

Intent in this case means that a layperson can confer the sacrament without a priest in a time of distress. What the grandmother did can never be held up as a valid sacrament because there was no emergency and also because there is no intent to raise the child Christian. Infant baptism is not some sort of magic spell to be conferred. It is, at the most basic level, a promise to raise the child in the church community until the child reaches the decision to continue or not on their own.

[Katydid]

Is this the reason her parents seem disinterested in her? Because they don't like her name :cray-cray:

Seriously, this is why you shouldn't let your children name your children. If I let my son name the baby I'm carrying now, he'd probably go with Captain Tummy or something equally ridiculous. JB & M need to parent the heck up already. Not that THAT'S going to happen any time soon...

[Coconut Flan]

Seriously, this is why you shouldn't let your children name your children. If I let my son name the baby I'm carrying now, he'd probably go with Captain Tummy or something equally ridiculous. JB & M need to parent the heck up already. Not that THAT'S going to happen any time soon...

Exactly. Naming a child isn't normally something to be delegated to the offspring. Especially with the good chance that they'll come up with a name that is faddish, improper, or just not a good one. I always wondered if the voting was something suggested by production just to provide episode fodder.

[Katydid]

Exactly. Naming a child isn't normally something to be delegated to the offspring. Especially with the good chance that they'll come up with a name that is faddish, improper, or just not a good one. I always wondered if the voting was something suggested by production just to provide episode fodder.

I hadn't thought about that before, but it's a likely scenario.