Nathaniel Darnell is courting

[debrand]

then do to the false witness as that witness intended to do to the other party. You must purge the evil from among you. 20 The rest of the people will hear of this and be afraid, and never again will such an evil thing be done among you. 21 Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

So, if a victim makes the mistake of taking a bath or changing clothing and DNA evidence is destroyed, she will be 'purged'?

IF he is going to follow one verse out of the Old Testament, he should follow them all. I wonder if he believes that rape victims should marry their attackers.

(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT) If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

or that a man can force a war prisoner to marry him.

(Deuteronomy 21:11-13)if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife.

Yeah, because marrying the woman whose village you ransacked makes everything alright. :ew:

The Old Testament is not a good book to use as a rule guide for a modern society.

[DomWackTroll]

And what I'd like to see is him spin this when men are raped. Still require 3 witnesses?

But if a man is carrying a concealed or open firearm, as all men should, he won't be raped. A man without a gun is like a woman in a mini skirt, just asking for it.

[debrand]

If a young lady genuinely believes she has been raped, of course the first thing she should do is talk with her shepherds about what happened, so that they can help and steer her in what to do next. If she is married, then that would mean speaking with her husband and possibly her church elder(s) privately. If she is unmarried, that would mean speaking with her parents and possibly her church elder(s) privately to have wisdom in what to do next. If

And during this time, DNA evidence will be more difficult to obtain because she waited which means that, according to Nathaniel Darnell, she won't have additional witness of physical evidence and should just shut her mouth or be purged.

What if her parents, elders or husband don't want her to go forward with any charges? Does the woman not have any say in her own life? Don't her feelings about justice matter or does he believe that women are too stupid to make such decisions?

[Coconut Flan]

More poor pitiful female doesn't have the sense to know what to do. The elders of his church are pretty far down on the list of people I'd want to talk to about what to do.

[SamuraiKatz]

Nathaniel is still on his rape tangent over at Reconstructionist Theonomists:

"If a young lady genuinely believes she has been raped…"

Nathaniel, you do understand that not all women who are raped are "young ladies," don't you? Elderly women get raped all the time, because rape is about power, not sex.

"If she cannot prove that she was raped, then she should beware the consequences of Deuteronomy 19:16-21, which hold her accountable to the same penalty as the one she accuses, if she is proven wrong. If she really has been raped, then it is far easier today to satisfy the requirement of two or three witnesses to her abuse than it was 4,000 years ago because of scientific breakthroughs in areas such as DNA testing. Thus, she should be able to find the requisite collaboration necessary for her justice."

facebook.com/groups/478280035590690/permalink/581745965244096/?stream_ref=2

He secretly hates women...

[thoughtful]

Nah, I just realized that I wasn't really interested in defending him. He was really, really wrong on that thread on Jordan's FB page and I can't stand it. I heard he did something on his last day at BCA that made me think he was made of sterner stuff, but I was wrong.

(bolding mine)

Well, since you've visited this thread again, I would like to ask you something. You needn't answer if you are not comfortable doing so.

For a long time, your first post in this thread was your only post. You said:

ND is NOT "Gay." More likely that's a rumor spread about him by people wanting him to not have success.

Now you say you don't want to defend him (fair enough -- I wouldn't either!). But in what way was telling us he's not gay "defending" him?

As I posted before, it was unclear whether you were accusing us of this rumor-mongering, or someone in his everyday life.

It is also unclear whether you meant that you think being gay is bad, or just something that would decrease his success in the circles in which he is trying to succeed.

[CloakNDagger]

I'm just going to say this. I have reason to believe that there were girls in the community that he was interested in, and he seemed to feel like he'd been sabotaged for whatever reason every time. Of course, he's not the only one that happened to. There were people interested in Hero who were played as well for now obvious reasons. There's definitely politics related to marriage in these circles.

And I'm not here to persuade any of y'all of the position (ie. I'm not here to argue and will try not to), but I do believe that sodomy has consequences and is unseemly (Romans 1).

[debrand]

I'm just going to say this. I have reason to believe that there were girls in the community that he was interested in, and he seemed to feel like he'd been sabotaged for whatever reason every time. Of course, he's not the only one that happened to. There were people interested in Hero who were played as well for now obvious reasons. There's definitely politics related to marriage in these circles.

And I'm not here to persuade any of y'all of the position (ie. I'm not here to argue and will try not to), but I do believe that sodomy has consequences and is unseemly (Romans 1).

As you meet more people, I honestly think that your opinion will change on homosexuality but I don't want to derail the thread.

Was there something about Darnell that made parents wary about him marrying their daughters?

Nathaniel appears to have a low opinion of women. One thing that frustrated me when I read blogs by both men and women affiliated with BCA/Vision Forum were their romantic view of the different sexes and how they interact. It is obvious that lots of people don't fit the group's ideal of what male and female should be. However when you have a generation of boys that have been taught that women are more emotional than men, less rational and shouldn't be in position of power over men, of course, those young men are going to have negative views on women. The sad part is that because of the romantic language, men like Nathaniel probably don't realize that they don't respect women so he won't understand why he needs to change.

I know that it is difficult for some to understand, but claiming that you will die for a woman or want to protect her isn't automatically respectful. If you believe that women need protection because they can' t handle life or make their own decisions, you aren't respectful. And offering to do something that you will probably never be called on to do(like die for someone) is a pretty silly trade off for the woman having to be submissive to someone just because they have a penis.

The entire Vision Forum/BCA/Christian Reconstructionist system is set up so that women are less than men and it isn't surprising that Nathaniel would be so clueless about rape and child abuse. He lives in a world where following the rules will make everything all right and the hierarchy is supposed to be respected.

[DomWackTroll]

I'm just going to say this. I have reason to believe that there were girls in the community that he was interested in, and he seemed to feel like he'd been sabotaged for whatever reason every time. Of course, he's not the only one that happened to. There were people interested in Hero who were played as well for now obvious reasons. There's definitely politics related to marriage in these circles.

And I'm not here to persuade any of y'all of the position (ie. I'm not here to argue and will try not to), but I do believe that sodomy has consequences and is unseemly (Romans 1).

Don't you understand how convenient this "daddy is overprotective" thing is for a closet case who wants to remain that way (if in fact that is what Darnell is)? All you have to do is "fall hopelessly in love" with a Botkin sister and there you go-- lifetime security from actual heterosexual sex.

Let's be honest here. In his youth, Nathaniel Darnell was the best-looking of the bunch in these circles. If he wanted to be married, he would be married, politics or no politics.

[debrand]

Don't you understand how convenient this "daddy is overprotective" thing is for a closet case who wants to remain that way (if in fact that is what Darnell is)? All you have to do is "fall hopelessly in love" with a Botkin sister and there you go-- lifetime security from actual heterosexual sex.

Let's be honest here. In his youth, Nathaniel Darnell was the best-looking of the bunch in these circles. If he wanted to be married, he would be married, politics or no politics.

I don't know if Darnell is gay or not but why would his hopes for marriage be sabotaged? He isn't a bad looking young man and, as far as guys from that group go, isn't a bad catch. Is there something about his personality that frightens parents? If he thought that the church was sabotaging his desire to marry, why didn't he go elsewhere? There are a lot of fundamentalist women who are single.

[formergothardite]

I feel sorry for any gay person in these communities. You either have to force yourself to get married to someone you aren't attracted to or you have to try and hide it by coming up with reasons that you aren't married.

[meda]

Don't you understand how convenient this "daddy is overprotective" thing is for a closet case who wants to remain that way (if in fact that is what Darnell is)? All you have to do is "fall hopelessly in love" with a Botkin sister and there you go-- lifetime security from actual heterosexual sex.

Let's be honest here. In his youth, Nathaniel Darnell was the best-looking of the bunch in these circles. If he wanted to be married, he would be married, politics or no politics.

I agree with this, but Nathaniel is also arrogant and believes he deserves the best. He felt he deserved a Botkin or the equivalent, and I doubt he had the humility or acting skills to placate a high level patriarch long enough to snag a daughter. Regardless of his orientation, (any suspicion of which would make it even easier for a daddy to say no to an arrogant twit like Darnell) his own personality would "sabotage" his chances. Other closeted fundie men have managed to marry desirable virgins with enough connections to advance a career. Haggard, for example. I would imagine that they view it as a necessary evil.

[DomWackTroll]

I agree with this, but Nathaniel is also arrogant and believes he deserves the best. He felt he deserved a Botkin or the equivalent, and I doubt he had the humility or acting skills to placate a high level patriarch long enough to snag a daughter. Regardless of his orientation, (any suspicion of which would make it even easier for a daddy to say no to an arrogant twit like Darnell) his own personality would "sabotage" his chances. Other closeted fundie men have managed to marry desirable virgins with enough connections to advance a career. Haggard, for example. I would imagine that they view it as a necessary evil.

Peter Bradrick was arrogant and lacking in humility, too. But he faked it long enough to get "the best," which for him was sex with a beautiful woman. And the vast majority of heterosexual men would do the same if put in his postition. Darnell is sabotaging himself very much on purpose, IMO.

[WonderingInWA]

Peter Bradrick was arrogant and lacking in humility, too. But he faked it long enough to get "the best," which for him was sex with a beautiful woman. And the vast majority of heterosexual men would do the same if put in his postition. Darnell is sabotaging himself very much on purpose, IMO.

Dang, I wish I'd saved that photo of BRADRICK! on his honeymoon standing with Kelly on the steps of a historic B&B. It was a classic, and posted by none other than Darnell himself. BRADRICK! was straddling Kelly from the side, showing off his conquest, wearing his big ole pointy cowboy boots, finally having been laid. She was smiling sweetly in her denim skirt but could probably hardly walk. Wish I knew better how to navigate the Way Back Machine, but IIRC, it was a photo on Darnell's blog from August or later 2006.

[hoipolloi]

Dang, I wish I'd saved that photo of BRADRICK! on his honeymoon standing with Kelly on the steps of a historic B&B. It was a classic, and posted by none other than Darnell himself. BRADRICK! was straddling Kelly from the side, showing off his conquest, wearing his big ole pointy cowboy boots, finally having been laid. She was smiling sweetly in her denim skirt but could probably hardly walk. Wish I knew better how to navigate the Way Back Machine, but IIRC, it was a photo on Darnell's blog from August or later 2006.

I remember that photo, too. If it wasn't on Darnell's blog it might have been on Justin Turley's or Caleb Hayden's.

[debrand]

Have we discussed the latest article on Darnell's news site?It is about Gothard.

.perseveronews.com/of-men-and-megalomaniacs/

To be clear, dozens if not hundreds of young ladies have circulated through the ministry doors over the decades, but according to World Magazine, 34 of those are alleging private sexual abuse from Mr. Gothard.

Did he include this to insinuate that most of the young ladies weren't abused so those 34 couldn't have been or does he think that 34 is not a large enough number?

In the wake of the recent events with Doug Phillips, it’s unclear how these complaints should be taken. Apparently, some of these accusations point back to events from decades ago, but they are just now becoming a hot topic—and one has to wonder if it’s not due to many folks getting swept up in the flurry surrounding Doug Phillip’s recent admission.

:evil-eye:

[Rebelwife]

Have we discussed the latest article on Darnell's news site?It is about Gothard.

.perseveronews.com/of-men-and-megalomaniacs/

Did he include this to insinuate that most of the young ladies weren't abused so those 34 couldn't have been or does he think that 34 is not a large enough number?

:evil-eye:

"Of course, all of the details related to each of the allegations against Mr. Gothard will need to be reviewed by the appropriate authorities investigating these incidents. They should consider whether perhaps Mr. Gothard’s actions, in each case, were really intended as sexual advances, or whether perhaps he was operating under an inappropriate understanding of his mentorship role in these young ladies lives.

Hopefully, however, this incident is also a wake-up call to the Christian families of America to the vulnerability that sending your daughters off to serve away from their families under another man puts them in. It’s not dangerous merely in ministries, but also in the corporate world for a family to send or abandon their daughter to the work force. Not only does it make her vulnerable, but it also tends to train her to think feministically—not as a helpmeet to a man serving God in the context of a family."

Ahh, it's just that he was being a "father-figure" or mentor to the girls and they're too simple to understand that. Also, it's the families' fault for sending their daughters away and that's even more proof that girls should be SAHDs. They're masters of victim blaming, aren't they?

[debrand]

A summary of Darnell's explanation:

Women after hearing visionary church leader speak decided that was the way to go. Dad was too busy with life to be the type of leader mom wanted him to be. She took over teaching kids the bible and taught them to respect the visionary leader as a super dad. Kids are sent to apprentice with super dad for a season. Super dad naturally sees young people as his kids and maybe does things with them that would be all right in a biological father but not good for a nonrelative to do. Darnell gives the example of an extended hug.

While this type of assumption would be wrong, it would not necessarily be “sexual abuse†because it would not have been intended by the leader to be an sexual advance but rather as a misunderstood part of mentorship.

Families should not send their daughters off to work with a man other than dad.

Not only does it make her vulnerable, but it also tends to train her to think feministically—not as a helpmeet to a man serving God in the context of a family.

Don't for goodness sakes hold the abuser accountable. Blame the victim and her family for misunderstanding him and letting the girl leave home in the first place.

Specifically, we should not be spreading gossip, slander, backing-biting, or other similar things. We should not even read or listen to such complaints if we are not tied closely to the alleged victim and/or part of the solution.

Cloak and Dagger, I have a question. You know Darnell. Does he hate women or hold them in low esteem? This sounds like something written by a man that believes women are too emotional or unintelligent to understand when they are being abused. How can he not see this as enabling the abuser? Has he met Gothard?

Because women often experience insecurities, especially when their husbands are being negligent in their roles, this can lead a mother trying to wear both hats to overcompensate and act overbearingly and dominating. To act as an arbitrary tyrant in her family. Sometimes the children get used to it for a while. But time and time again we have seen such mothers eventually run into a major clash—usually with the grown-up sons or prospective son-in-laws of her family, who especially do not appreciate her dominating ways.

The bolded part makes me go hmmmm. :think:

[CloakNDagger]

That post is utter folly. I'd REALLY like to see him give a few examples of families where he sees this "surrogate daddy" thing going on! Even in the case of Hero, I don't see that as accurate.

[CloakNDagger]

Cloak and Dagger, I have a question. You know Darnell. Does he hate women or hold them in low esteem? This sounds like something written by a man that believes women are too emotional or unintelligent to understand when they are being abused. How can he not see this as enabling the abuser? Has he met Gothard?

The bolded part makes me go hmmmm. :think:

I don't now know how well I really knew the guy. I thought he was OK.

[tropaka]

I don't have much to say other than that I'm glad this guy's "courtship" failed; she dodged a real bullet. The comment about people coming forward now because of the Phillips situation made my jaw drop. I guess he didn't know that RG has been dealing with these claims for months/years before putting them out.

[thoughtful]

I'm just going to say this. I have reason to believe that there were girls in the community that he was interested in, and he seemed to feel like he'd been sabotaged for whatever reason every time. Of course, he's not the only one that happened to. There were people interested in Hero who were played as well for now obvious reasons. There's definitely politics related to marriage in these circles.

And I'm not here to persuade any of y'all of the position (ie. I'm not here to argue and will try not to), but I do believe that sodomy has consequences and is unseemly (Romans 1).

Thank you for answering.

I'm not sure how the first paragraph applies to what I asked -- I actually don't care much about Darnell's courtship issues, or, for that matter, his sexuality. Straight or gay, he seems to be a misogynist blowhard and an abuse apologist.

I was just curious about whether you thought being called gay was an insult. I think, based on your second paragraph, that I have my answer.

I don't want to argue either, but I really do hope that your mind opens on this subject, in time.

[hoipolloi]

I actually don't care much about Darnell's courtship issues, or, for that matter, his sexuality. Straight or gay, he seems to be a misogynist blowhard and an abuse apologist.

Re: bolded. Yes, he is. Anyone who cites Rushdoony, Calvin, & Joe Morecraft in support of his assertions about the abuse of women in "Christian" circles, is exactly those things.

And, as if the above weren't enough, Darnell uses this uncredited photo in his article which is taken from the Pearls' No Greater Joy website:

Patriarchal abusive assholes stick together!

[CloakNDagger]

Re: bolded. Yes, he is. Anyone who cites Rushdoony, Calvin, & Joe Morecraft in support of his assertions about the abuse of women in "Christian" circles, is exactly those things.

Oddly enough, Morecraft was one of the men who confronted Doug and reportedly walked out of the meeting in disgust. I don't think he likely agrees with Nathaniel on this!

[CloakNDagger]

I was just curious about whether you thought being called gay was an insult. I think, based on your second paragraph, that I have my answer.

I don't want to argue either, but I really do hope that your mind opens on this subject, in time.

My theological position was reenforced by two propositions from sodomite men that made me nearly puke. :pink-shock: