Pope removes Cardinal Burke from Congregation for Bishops

[Buzzard]

I see your point.

I understand what you're saying but history is full of 180s. Think of the inquisition - hundreds of thousands of people were tortured and murdered but now the church is accepting of Jews and other Christians. Slavery was acceptable and even encouraged prior to the 1400s.

He's not saying that the church should "bless" homosexual unions, just that they shouldnt judge and should allow them in the church. Its the beginning of a conversation so I think its progress.

[Marianne]

How are the fundie Catholics reacting to this? I can't ever remember which bloggers are Catholic. Are they sad like Sunshine or angry? If the Catholic church goes too liberal I wonder what the super conservative Catholics will do.

They will see Lefebvrist.

But anyway, the texts don't change. It can move all the bishops he wants (I hate Burke, really. admire him here http://www.icrsp.org/Pages/Photos-2012. ... _en_suisse ; or here :http://www.icrsp.org/IMAGES-APOSTOLATS/IMAGES-2011/GRICIGLIANO/TREVISO/Initiale.htm ), it doesn't change the texts. it pleased to media, but before an encyclical ... He recently say that he was against women deacons or cardinal. The pope is not God in Catholic world...

It is like our bishops in France. Oh, yes, they don't have religious clothes, are very modern in their liturgical style, are very ecumenical, they have "pastoral" to help divorced, gay, they write books to say "no to the extreme right" (FN, Front National,they must seem very very light compared to the Republicans but it is our extremists to us, very popular) but they are always against abortion and gay marriage

One traditionnalist catholic blog : http://showerofroses.blogspot.fr/ .

My favorite catholic are sedevacantists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedevacantism) . They are so... Fun. Unfortunately I have no links to English blogs :/

[formergothardite]

I see your point.

I don't really see her point at all. I could see saying that it is a swift move that might upset people, but this being sad news? There is that church here in the South that would not let a black couple get married there because it was against their historic church customs. They suddenly changed their tune on that and anyone who isn't a racist doesn't think it is sad no matter how sudden it was. The Catholic church is changing(at a fairly slow pace) to treat people from certain groups better than they have historically. I don't see how the suddenness of this is sad. When it comes to treating people better isn't sudden change a good and happy thing? Even after reading her explanation I don't understand why she would think this is sad news.

[nokidsmom]

I don't really see her point at all. I could see saying that it is a swift move that might upset people, but this being sad news? There is that church here in the South that would not let a black couple get married there because it was against their historic church customs. They suddenly changed their tune on that and anyone who isn't a racist doesn't think it is sad no matter how sudden it was. The Catholic church is changing(at a fairly slow pace) to treat people from certain groups better than they have historically. I don't see how the suddenness of this is sad. When it comes to treating people better isn't sudden change a good and happy thing? Even after reading her explanation I don't understand why she would think this is sad news.

Also I think that thes so-called "sudden changes" in these churches are preceeded by changes in attitudes in the general membership over time but leadership holds out. Finally it gives even if for no other reason that to hold onto it is more problematic than not. It may not be for the best of reasons but sometimes that's how progress goes.

Not saying that is why Pope Francis is doing it; it may be but he seems to have more humility and inclined to less harping on doctrine than his predecessors.

[Palimpsest]

Also I think that thes so-called "sudden changes" in these churches are preceeded by changes in attitudes in the general membership over time but leadership holds out. Finally it gives even if for no other reason that to hold onto it is more problematic than not. It may not be for the best of reasons but sometimes that's how progress goes.

Not saying that is why Pope Francis is doing it; it may be but he seems to have more humility and inclined to less harping on doctrine than his predecessors.

I don't see her point either. Actually "There's a shoe up there that is going to drop" sounded to me as though she thought Pope Francis was about to get hit with a bolt of lightening for "changing the game." :? I may be reading it wrong...

The Catholic church may be changing a tiny bit, slower than molasses, and much slower than many Western/US Catholics want, in response to changing attitudes among Catholics. However many including my SIL, the Catholic nun, are still disappointed and angered that Francis re-affirmed Ratzinger's censure of those radical feminists!

Pope Francis is probably looking at schisms in other denominations (Anglicans and the Lutheran Federation come to mind) too when gradually beginning to modify Catholic teachings on homosexuality, especially in Africa.

[formergothardite]

I just don't see how being less mean towards gay people than they have historically can be sad news unless one thinks that gay people should be treated badly. It isn't even like he is saying that gay people can get married in the church it is more "Let's be a little nicer than we have been in the past." Being nicer is sad to Sunshine because historically they have been teaching stronger hate of gay people? That makes no sense. Jesus was all about sudden changes in people.

[OkToBeTakei]

I don't really see her point at all. I could see saying that it is a swift move that might upset people, but this being sad news? There is that church here in the South that would not let a black couple get married there because it was against their historic church customs. They suddenly changed their tune on that and anyone who isn't a racist doesn't think it is sad no matter how sudden it was. The Catholic church is changing(at a fairly slow pace) to treat people from certain groups better than they have historically. I don't see how the suddenness of this is sad. When it comes to treating people better isn't sudden change a good and happy thing? Even after reading her explanation I don't understand why she would think this is sad news.

Was just a fudgy answer to cover the fact that Sunshine took so long to answer then tried a swerve the issue response.

I just read it initially that sunshine was sad because a conservative Bishop has been removed because she either agreed with his stance and or was sad that he was removed. This fudgy answer does not change my first impression. Hey Ho !

I don't think the Catholic church will change quickly. I am happy though that this Pope is at least trying. It will never be quick enough or even enough for some. When I look though at the opposite that could have happened ie. A very conservative Pope I don't really understand the harping on about OH! but the Catholic church does xyz hates xyz does not allow xyz. It's almost like as is the case now, that even when small changes in what I view are the right direction are made, some still do not want to see this as positive. It's better than fuck all change. Have to say for me though it cannot change enough but I'm at least willing to not beat them up for every past horror in order just to make the point that most churches/religions have issues I detest yet when they try to change they just are damned if they do or don't.

[nokidsmom]

I just don't see how being less mean towards gay people than they have historically can be sad news unless one thinks that gay people should be treated badly. It isn't even like he is saying that gay people can get married in the church it is more "Let's be a little nicer than we have been in the past." Being nicer is sad to Sunshine because historically they have been teaching stronger hate of gay people? That makes no sense. Jesus was all about sudden changes in people.

Also caring for the poor, sick, and needy. Seems that Pope Francis is trying to get the church to refocus on those things. Can't see how that should be something to be sad about. Makes no sense either.

[sunshine]

We live in a world where everything has some type of a cost. I don't know what it leads too but it seems too familar for anyone not to question his true motives. We can be happy that he is focused on the poor and needy and not to be worried about sin but getting people into the Church to continue to give their money. However, when he speaks or when something is written about his talks it seems too fluffy and not concrete. In the meantime, only time will tell.

[RosyDaisy]

I was not agreeing with sunshine. I was merely saying I see her point which is you can't go from centuries of hate to acceptance in a short period of time without questioning why. Personally, I think Pope Francis is trying to change the Catholic Church at a faster rate. That is a good thing.

[formergothardite]

We live in a world where everything has some type of a cost. I don't know what it leads too but it seems too familar for anyone not to question his true motives. We can be happy that he is focused on the poor and needy and not to be worried about sin but getting people into the Church to continue to give their money. However, when he speaks or when something is written about his talks it seems too fluffy and not concrete. In the meantime, only time will tell.

Will you please be specific about the "cost" of being nicer to gay people? Or the "shoe" that you think is going to drop? Do you feel that when it came to race relations that it was sad when those things changed suddenly? Interracial marriage was considered a "sin" and an abomination to God by many, yet the change was fairly sudden in many places when it came to that belief. That too was sad in your eyes and came with a cost?

His true motives might not be that great but if the end results is that people are less mean, is it really that sad, Sunshine? Would it be better for him to teach intolerance for all gay people in your mind?

[medievalist1980]

Will you please be specific about the "cost" of being nicer to gay people? Or the "shoe" that you think is going to drop? You seem to be dancing around the real questions here. Do you feel that when it came to race relations that it was sad when those things changed suddenly? Interracial marriage was considered a "sin" and an abomination to God by many, yet the change was fairly sudden in many places when it came to that belief. That too was sad in your eyes and came with a cost?

His true motives might not be that great but if the end results is that people are less mean, is it really that sad, Sunshine? Would it be better for him to teach intolerance for all gay people in your mind?

Here's the thing: for many people, the shoe is already dropped. The church will (most likely) not change it's doctrine. Women will not be priests. Homosexuals will not get married. Life begins at conception and abortion will never be okay (unless it's like an ectopic pregnancy but even then you can't guarantee that everyone will agree). That's the shoe, Sunshine. HOWEVER, the pope is saying let's look at all these issues from the other side, such as: why do women get abortions? Most often it is economic need. Well then, how can we help people to not feel so strapped for cash? Oh, by sharing and having universal healthcare. Then we'll have less abortions. So the goals are mostly the same, but he's going about them, well, more like many nuns have.

You think he's just doing this to get more people into Church? For the tithes? That's his long con? Well, gee, how awful that he realized that saying that we should be nice to gay people or not tell atheists they are going to burn in hell are actually attractive ideas to many.

[jaelh]

.....

I think also it's important to remember that there are many (MANY) catholics, engaged, practicing catholics who are incredibly liberal - at least by catholic standards - or, for whom "political catholicism" is an anathema. I call them "post second vatican catholics". And there are plenty of them, though they are much less vocal than the conservative catholics for whom the Rat was ideally suited.

this pope speaks to a significant portion of the (western) church that has been sidelined by the political focus on much that came from the papacy in recent years.

he speaks to the many millions of catholics who live in poverty in the developing world, who live and die in poverty but within vibrant faith communities - for whom the "social-political" concerns of the west a a billion miles from their lives.

he speaks to those catholics - particularly missionary orders of nuns and priests [for catholics, missionary is less on converting, more on the doing shit stuff than fundie missionary work] - who have spent their lives working with the poor and unimpowered.

I find this - oh! it's to get bums of seats - nuts. No. I mean - sure, that's nice. But he's speaking also to the catholicism of hundreds of millions of people. they're not all wingnuts, it's just that the wingnuts are the squeaky wheel.

also on the - it all sounds waffly. Actually, he's theologically 100% sound. Impeccably sound. much of the speaking done by francis is ex tempore - very much unlike JPII and the Ratmazter. and he gets it, every time he gets it. amazing.

I think people might feel it sounds waffly, because he's not speaking the same absolutist catholicism of the recent past popes: it's much easier to sound "firmer" when you're saying - don't do that! Saying - there's truth in everything *feels* less decisive. But it isn't, it's just different to the type of decisive we're used to.

[formergothardite]

They will see Lefebvrist.

But anyway, the texts don't change. It can move all the bishops he wants (I hate Burke, really. admire him here http://www.icrsp.org/Pages/Photos-2012. ... _en_suisse ; or here :http://www.icrsp.org/IMAGES-APOSTOLATS/IMAGES-2011/GRICIGLIANO/TREVISO/Initiale.htm ), it doesn't change the texts. it pleased to media, but before an encyclical ... He recently say that he was against women deacons or cardinal. The pope is not God in Catholic world...

It is like our bishops in France. Oh, yes, they don't have religious clothes, are very modern in their liturgical style, are very ecumenical, they have "pastoral" to help divorced, gay, they write books to say "no to the extreme right" (FN, Front National,they must seem very very light compared to the Republicans but it is our extremists to us, very popular) but they are always against abortion and gay marriage

One traditionnalist catholic blog : http://showerofroses.blogspot.fr/ .

My favorite catholic are sedevacantists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedevacantism) . They are so... Fun. Unfortunately I have no links to English blogs :/

Thank you for answering. I glanced at the shower of roses blog and I have to say that her Cathedral cake was beautiful. And the Feast of Stephen! I have heard of that from the one Christmas carol, didn't realize people actually celebrate it. I always wanted to be Catholic when I was being raised ATI because it seemed like a lot more fun.

RosyDaisy, I didn't think you were agreeing with her, I just really don't understand her point. How does "this is sad" translate to "we should look at the motives behind the fast change to encouraging being nice to people we have traditionally treated bad."

[Marianne]

Thank you for answering. I glanced at the shower of roses blog and I have to say that her Cathedral cake was beautiful. And the Feast of Stephen! I have heard of that from the one Christmas carol, didn't realize people actually celebrate it. I always wanted to be Catholic when I was being raised ATI because it seemed like a lot more fun.

RosyDaisy, I didn't think you were agreeing with her, I just really don't understand her point. How does "this is sad" translate to "we should look at the motives behind the fast change to encouraging being nice to people we have traditionally treated bad."

She often gives recipes that are very good if you want to try it ;) This : http://catholiccuisine.blogspot.fr/2012 ... -hams.html is delicious. We don't have many protestant, baptist or whatever here, and I think it's mainly because in my city/regions people love big church with a lot of pictures, etc... Protestantism would seem too auster.

What I see in the Pope Francis is a lot of hypocrisy, while in appearance. He is "LOOK, I don't live in a palace !" then he lives in a place that is bigger and more comfortable, it is convenient. everyone thinks that you are more "poor" and "modest" and you, you have comfort, good heating and a larger room than if you have lived in the palace. Practice.

It's like this priest, after Vatican II, who bought religious clothing who seemed poor, but in reality it was very expensive.

Benedict, Francis : the same for me (I confess, some texts of Benedict helped me a lot when I made my end of study in college about church music and Gregorian chant from the XVIII° century to now).

[Coconut Flan]

Where are you seeing that Francis has more luxury staying in the guest house than he would in the usual quarters for the pope?

[theologygeek]

It is sad news because you can't go from consistently saying this is evil, this is wrong for many years and in a blink in the eye say I am changing the game. There is a shoe up there that is going to drop.

It drives me crazy that some people think the pope is changing the game. The media is not helping matters either. I'm glad that the media is bringing positive attention to it, but they are confusing the hell out of people who are not familiar with the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Pope Francis didn't change anything, and he never said anything that wasn't in the Catechism. The Catechism regarding gays always said "They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided." The Catholic stand on homosexuality has always been that being gay is not a sin, but the sexual act is. I don't agree with it, but I don't run the Church, so my opinion doesn't really matter. However....One thing I have to say is that the Catholic Church has practiced the compassion, respect, and sensitivity where gays dying of AIDS were concerned. While some sects of the Protestant clergy were damning them to hell, the Catholics were chipping in to help. In the 80's, when AIDS was new and rampant, it was the priests and nuns who were on the front line, changing dressings on AIDS patients and taking care of them when no one else wanted to touch them. Sometimes priests, nuns, and members of the Catholic Church were the only ones at these bedsides when the patient's own family shunned them. I will never forget what I saw. It was heartbreaking and beautiful at the same time.

[theologygeek]

We live in a world where everything has some type of a cost. I don't know what it leads too but it seems too familar for anyone not to question his true motives. We can be happy that he is focused on the poor and needy and not to be worried about sin but getting people into the Church to continue to give their money. However, when he speaks or when something is written about his talks it seems too fluffy and not concrete. In the meantime, only time will tell.

"His true motives." For the millionth time, he's a Jesuit. They are all like that. Social justice causes are what they are taught in Jesuit schools, what they believe in, and what they live and breathe. The Jesuits are about the most awesome bunch of people in the world. I really admire them.

[sunshine]

It drives me crazy that some people think the pope is changing the game. The media is not helping matters either. I'm glad that the media is bringing positive attention to it, but they are confusing the hell out of people who are not familiar with the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Pope Francis didn't change anything, and he never said anything that wasn't in the Catechism. The Catechism regarding gays always said "They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided." The Catholic stand on homosexuality has always been that being gay is not a sin, but the sexual act is. I don't agree with it, but I don't run the Church, so my opinion doesn't really matter. However....One thing I have to say is that the Catholic Church has practiced the compassion, respect, and sensitivity where gays dying of AIDS were concerned. While some sects of the Protestant clergy were damning them to hell, the Catholics were chipping in to help. In the 80's, when AIDS was new and rampant, it was the priests and nuns who were on the front line, changing dressings on AIDS patients and taking care of them when no one else wanted to touch them. Sometimes priests, nuns, and members of the Catholic Church were the only ones at these bedsides when the patient's own family shunned them. I will never forget what I saw. It was heartbreaking and beautiful at the same time.

Question: Did you googled your answer or are you speaking from experience of working and studying under the Church? If you googled your answer, there is no point to discuss this further. Oh, well. :popcorn2:

[sunshine]

"His true motives." For the millionth time, he's a Jesuit. They are all like that. Social justice causes are what they are taught in Jesuit schools, what they believe in, and what they live and breathe. The Jesuits are about the most awesome bunch of people in the world. I really admire them.

I didn't mean to tire you out. He sounds shady to me but I guess time will show his agenda.

[Mama Mia]

It drives me crazy that some people think the pope is changing the game. The media is not helping matters either. I'm glad that the media is bringing positive attention to it, but they are confusing the hell out of people who are not familiar with the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Pope Francis didn't change anything, and he never said anything that wasn't in the Catechism. The Catechism regarding gays always said "They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided." The Catholic stand on homosexuality has always been that being gay is not a sin, but the sexual act is. I don't agree with it, but I don't run the Church, so my opinion doesn't really matter. However....One thing I have to say is that the Catholic Church has practiced the compassion, respect, and sensitivity where gays dying of AIDS were concerned. While some sects of the Protestant clergy were damning them to hell, the Catholics were chipping in to help. In the 80's, when AIDS was new and rampant, it was the priests and nuns who were on the front line, changing dressings on AIDS patients and taking care of them when no one else wanted to touch them. Sometimes priests, nuns, and members of the Catholic Church were the only ones at these bedsides when the patient's own family shunned them. I will never forget what I saw. It was heartbreaking and beautiful at the same time.

Exactly. In the down and dirty side of social services it is often Catholic nuns and priests and lay people who are in the trenches. In my experience they are the ones who are most likely to be hauling groceries, setting up shelters, cooking soup, advocating for immigrants, helping people fill out paperwork for government programs, training marginalized people in how to advocate for themselves, caring for the sick, and basically doing full-time hands on social justice work. This isn't something new, its what the focus is for many of them.

[Marianne]

Casa Saint Martha is larger and more comfortable than the royal palace (I read it in a French newspaper normal -. Not a fundamentalist newspaper) I'm sorry, I can't find sources in English about it :/. I also saw the Holy Casa Marta when I was in the Vatican, and the rooms are huge and very comfortable. Pop François recently beatified "martyrs" of the Spanish Civil War, these "martyrs" were killed by Communists and Republicans and were for Franco. that, it disgusts me.

I also await the day when the Pope François will apologize for collusion between dictatorships and the Church (as, for example, Pinochet and John Paul II.) He loves freedom, Pope Francis, but he receives Putin.

[formergothardite]

Question: Did you googled your answer or are you speaking from experience of working and studying under the Church? If you googled your answer, there is no point to discuss this further. Oh, well. :popcorn2:

Question: Are you going to answer the rest of these questions on this thread or just ignore them? There is no point in having a discussion with you if you ignore many of the question. :popcorn2:

[formergothardite]

I didn't mean to tire you out. He sounds shady to me but I guess time will show his agenda.

Are we ever going to find out what "shoe" is going to drop on him or whatever you meant? Are we ever going to find out what the "cost" of saying "be nicer to gay people" is?

[theologygeek]

Question: Did you googled your answer or are you speaking from experience of working and studying under the Church? If you googled your answer, there is no point to discuss this further. Oh, well. :popcorn2:

Color me confused, but I don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about. Did I google which part of my answer?