"Return of the Daughters" review

[Talitha Cumi]

http://www.tcshouston.org/about-tcs/about-tcs-1

So she teaches kids whose parents refuse to homeschool them??

And gets paid! I wonder if she turns her paycheck over to Voddie.

[Talitha Cumi]

This photo (taken between #2 and #3 a few years ago) kind of says it all.

[attachment=0]3772817258_052d0b2365_b.jpg[/attachment]

She looks like she's about to burst into tears.

[Palimpsest]

Another review of ROTD ... warning, I got sick reading it! and the reviewer is on our side!

ingridgraceandaudrey.blogspot.com/2012_06_01_archive.html

The Return of the Zombies! I remember reading that last year! It is very long but I thought it was pretty funny.

It seems that Ingrid has had a lot of hate mail and is blogging much less frequently. A great pity, because I like her and think she nailed most of the problems with Vision Forum.

Oh, and thanks, Marian, for your excellent reviews.

[salex]

The people I dealt with were fundy lites--most of them married women with children who wore pants and had full time jobs. There was more to it than any of this. I think a huge part of it is a deep seated insecurity in their faith. All the worrying and trying so hard was part of proving that they really were good enough Christians. Their Christianity was a label they wore and they constantly had to be proving to themselves and each other that they really deserved it and really believed it. Outward things like not watching whatever television show or boycotting whatever they were supposed to boycott proved that they wholeheartedly believed. A lot of it became a "I'm a better Christian than you because..." game they played with each other. I always suspected that many of them had very real doubts buried deep under the facades.

[Queen Of Hearts]

(We end with a picture of a newborn: "Just days after our interview, Kelly Bradrick gave birth to a son. They named him Triumph." Musical crescendo.)

But were there cellos?

[Cleopatra7]

But were there cellos?

Is Triumph the toddler standing on the deck in the photo? Kelly looks pretty desperate in that picture. I guess two under three and another on the way will do that. Also, I didn't think patriarchy wives were allowed to wear dresses like that.

[hoipolloi]

Is Triumph the toddler standing on the deck in the photo? Kelly looks pretty desperate in that picture. I guess two under three and another on the way will do that. Also, I didn't think patriarchy wives were allowed to wear dresses like that.

Yes, think that's Triumph Perseverance standing near Kelly, with Knox Defender in her arms, and Loyal Cromwell in utero.

[debrand]

I just can't imagine Kelly standing on her back deck calling her children in to eat dinner, "Triumph Perseverance , Loyal, and Knox Defender!" Not only are those very pretentious names but they sound like something you would name a golden retriever. "Come here, Knox. Who's a good boy, Loyal is a good boy. Have a treat, Triumph."

[Olive Plant]

Yes, think that's Triumph Perseverance standing near Kelly, with Knox Defender in her arms, and Loyal Cromwell in utero.

They named their kid after fucking CROMWELL? Yes, son, you were named after a man who killed a bunch of bad people. These people were called Irish Catholics.

[defraudingjezebel]

They named their kid after fucking CROMWELL? Yes, son, you were named after a man who killed a bunch of bad people. These people were called Irish Catholics.

Not to mention he was about as disloyal as they come! But I suppose he killed Catholics AND instituted Puritanical law throughout England during his dictatorship, so he's an ideal fundie role model. :| But I guess we're totally veering off-subject... hahaha.

The thing I find that is fascinating is that we are being told that daughters should stay at home but nothing about what they should do in the meantime. Sure, if they have eleven billion little siblings they'll undoubtedly take on a lion's share of the childcare. But I'm 25 and an unmarried only child. What would I do to pass my time besides read books (or, in their terms, do the equivalent of a master's) or do housework? Volunteer at church? Still, that only takes up so much time. I guess I'm surprised that they lay down ideas with few suggestions on how to actually implement them in one's life.

[Cleopatra7]

Not to mention he was about as disloyal as they come! But I suppose he killed Catholics AND instituted Puritanical law throughout England during his dictatorship, so he's an ideal fundie role model. :| But I guess we're totally veering off-subject... hahaha.

The thing I find that is fascinating is that we are being told that daughters should stay at home but nothing about what they should do in the meantime. Sure, if they have eleven billion little siblings they'll undoubtedly take on a lion's share of the childcare. But I'm 25 and an unmarried only child. What would I do to pass my time besides read books (or, in their terms, do the equivalent of a master's) or do housework? Volunteer at church? Still, that only takes up so much time. I guess I'm surprised that they lay down ideas with few suggestions on how to actually implement them in one's life.

Advocates of SAHDhood probably assume that a girl will be married by the time she's in her late teens like Michelle Duggar in a best case scenario or helping her father out with his "vision" otherwise. In reality it seems like most of these SAHDs just become aimless spinsters or perpetual sister-moms, because the father's standards for a suitor are too high or because there are too many small children to permit an older daughter get married.

[Marian the Librarian]

Finally, the last installment. Extra #3 consists of interviews with Geoff Botkin and Doug Phillips, explaining the theology behind "Return of the Daughters." I've transcribed them word for word for word for word....They are long-winded, to say the least, so I'm posting in installments. So settle in with some popcorn, and the beverage of your choice, and enjoy - or not!

Botkinettes: Our short documentary could not introduce the essential theology behind the personal reformations of families all over the world. Here are short portions of interviews we conducted with two men who have a good understanding of the theology behind The ROTD.

Geoff Botkin: An important place to begin any study of theology is to acknowledge the fact that all men are theologians in every culture. Theology is nothing more than the study of God or the study of the highest authority. And men who are unwilling to learn from God almighty himself, but who would rather create an alternative authority, like themselves, where they can say “I’m my own God, I can do what is right in my own eyes any time that I want to,†they will suppress the truth in unrighteousness and create fantastical systems of theology that are very complex, and they will use those theologies to justify everything that they do, including the way that they raise their families, treat their wives, bring up their daughters, and so we’ve had just in the last several centuries, complex theologies about daughterhood that are very destructive of women. Theologies for example that may define women as mere property, period, that’s all. Other theologies that may define women as mysterious creatures of unspeakable evil, and that’s how they treat their daughters. There are other theologies, one in the 19th century, about women that define them as being nothing more than ornaments - ornamentation for the home and for the man and for society. And probably the two most destructive in the 20th century have been the theology of Marxism and Neo-Marxism, which redefine women and womanhood and motherhood into something very perverse and corrupt that resembles manhood. I’ve grown up in my lifetime with a very destructive theology that affected every single one of my peers, a theology developed by Hugh Hefner, which defined women as nothing more that discardable playthings, and all women have been affected by this. In fact I was just speaking to 2 young sorority girls just this last week who were explaining to me why they had not come to college to find a husband, but rather to find bridesmaids. They said “We need someone who will be with us the rest of our life, supporting us, standing by us, and we know it won’t be men. We know it will not be our husbands,†plural. They said “Men come and go, but we’re looking for someone that we can have with us the rest of our life.†And so we have inherited a very corrupt system of theology that has guided and become the religion externalized in our society. Now the families that you’ve been showing us in this documentary are very different. They don’t want to be like this, they want to be different. And so the study that they’re undertaking now of theology is not their own inventive theologies, they’re looking into something that is called revealed theology, which is the theology of going to scripture and finding out what God almighty really does say about the home, about the family, about men and about women, and they’re building their lives around these truths, and it’s very convicting to many of us who see them opening up scripture to do this, but it’s very important. One point you need to make in your film is that all men and all women, all children can open up scripture and understand it. All men can open up scripture and be successful in their study of theology, as long as they begin where God begins.

[Marian the Librarian]

Doug Phillips: The Bible begins with the proclamation that God is exactly who he says he is. He is God. And theologians tell us that at the centerpiece of our Biblical worldview is something they call the creature creator distinctive. And what this distinctive tells us is that we are not God. We are not the boss, we don’t get to call the shots, we are not the lawmaker. Only the sovereign God of creation is that person. Now he’s created a universe, and in that universe he’s created structure and order which is a reflection of his eternal righteousness, of his character, of his love, of his mercy, of his wrath, of all the different elements that come into the very character and person of god and the law order which the living God, the God of creation, has given to us, teaches us that there is hierarchy and order within society, within the relationships that we have. It begins with the hierarchy of God over us, and here’s what that means: total comprehensive submission to the living God. Now, anyone who wants to follow the lord Jesus Christ needs to understand that they can only do so if they’re willing to totally, comprehensively submit to our sovereign and our king. So this principle of submission far transcends issues of children to parents, wives to husband, churchmen to the local church, it goes to the essence of creation, it goes to the godhood, the godhead, it goes to the very centrality of what God has made in the universe itself.

Geoff Botkin: It’s very important that we get this order right, and to have these theological discussions is important. Some people hear them, and they say “Well, it’s fascinating and it’s interesting and it’s academic, but could it be distracting us from what’s really important, could it be distracting us from the gospel, what does all this family stuff have to do with the gospel?†And it should be pointed out it has very much to do with the gospel, in fact the word gospel was chosen by Jesus Christ himself to describe the gospel of Jesus Christ, to describe the gospel of the kingdom. He chose a word that was in use at his time. The gospel of Caesar Augustus was actually the birth announcement for the divine savior king, and so what does that tell us about the gospel of Jesus Christ? The gospel of Caesar Augustus was also representative of all his edicts, his decrees, his laws, his pronouncements, and what does that tell us about the whole counsel of God? We need to be digging into it and finding out all that the whole counsel of God tells us about the family, and the lord Jesus Christ has a lot to say all through scripture, the incarnate word of God himself has a lot to say about the family. In fact, the family, as we study scripture shows us, it is the one best place for the disciple makers to be created and built up who are the disciple makers of Matthew 28, they are at the center of the gospel proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Marian the Librarian]

Doug Phillips: Before the institution of civil government, and before we see the manifestation of the local church and the modern church as we think of it today with elders and with deacons and the structure of it, we see the family. The family is the first institution clearly established by God in which we have a leader, and we have a subordinate, and we have a mission, which is immediately placed before them, and what was that? God created man, and within the very 6th day of creation he built the family. He gave him a bride. He told the two of them that they were to be fruitful and multiply and have dominion over the Earth. He created an infrastructure of government for the family. He said that the man was to lead, the woman was to follow, her desire was to be towards her husband, and this unit, this family unit which we see with Adam and with Eve and with their progeny would serve as the basic structure, the basic institution that would be the building block of civilizations, of cultures and of the church of Jesus Christ itself. The family is that basic building block. We see the family at the beginning of the Bible, and we see the true ultimate manifestation of the family in the last chapter of the Bible. Because the family points us to the most beautiful thing in all of creation, the bride and the groom, the holy family, the family which is the coming together, the consummation of all of time in church history with Jesus Christ getting his bride. Our families are pictures of that, which is why Ephesians 5 speaks of a great mystery, the Bible tells us, the relationship between the man and the woman pointing us to Christ and the bride. So when people ask, “Is the family important?†Is the family important? The family begins the Bible. The family in its true ultimate manifestation, its spiritual manifestation, ends the Bible. And throughout the Bible whether we’re looking at the book of Psalms, which speaks of the righteous man and his beloved bride and his olive plants, or whether we’re going through the Book of Proverbs and seeing admonitions for godly wives and godly husbands and righteous sons or whether we’re going through the Epistles which constantly exhort men and women in the context of being husband and wife and of their families, or whether it is the stories of the scripture which tell us over and over again the blessings of God when we obey the lord’s model for the family, and the judgments of God when we do not. No matter what it is, we see from beginning into the end of the Bible the family is central to understanding the progress of the church. It’s not accidental that the Bible is replete with genealogies. The New Testament begins with genealogies. The Old Testament ends with a proclamation of unity between fathers and their children to make ready a people prepared for the lord. These genealogies, these prophecies, these proclamations all point to the fact that we understand deep profound spiritual truths as we see what God is doing with the family. Now – question: what is the most effective way for the great all time historic Satanic conspiracy deception to wreak havoc in the church? Well there’s a lot of ways to do it, but if you can undermine fundamental institutions that teach us the true meaning of Christ and his bride, if you can break down the generational legacies, if you can pervert the meaning of hierarchy and structure, then ultimately you are raising your fist at the creature creator distinctive, and at the living God himself. You are ultimately defying everything that the Bible teaches us about his progressive plan for the unfolding history of the church, and you do that by warping the basic models of family life, of what it means to be a man, of what it means to be a woman, so we shouldn’t be surprised that families are subject to tremendous attack, and the Biblical doctrine of womanhood is laughable in a culture which hates God. And that’s why in our day and age the battleground is over the family. What will become of the family? Wipe out the family, you undermine church; wipe out the family, the blessing is removed from the culture itself; wipe out the family, the law system begins to disintegrate. Wipe out the family, we have little hope practically before our eyes. And so Biblical revivals oftentimes begin first with the turning of the heart to God, and the outflow of that is the turning of the hearts of fathers to their children, and children to their parents, to make ready a people prepared for the lord lest I smite the ground with a curse.

One of the most interesting chapters in the Bible is Numbers Chapter 30, which is a rich depository of instruction for fathers and daughters. Here in Numbers Chapter 30, we see an interesting legal question arise. What happens if a daughter goes out and makes a contract, or she has an oath or a vow, but she wasn’t approved of her father? What happens? Here’s what the Bible says. If the father discovers that either his wife or his daughter, who still live under his roof and under his protection and care, have gone out and have covenanted or contracted or vowed without his consent in a manner which is inconsistent with the direction of the household, he has the ability to nullify that. On the other hand, if he doesn’t nullify it in the day in which he hears it, he ratifies it and approves it. Now what does this mean, why is this important? It’s important because what it tells you is that the family is a unified whole. That the father is the head of the home, and that both the wife and the daughter are not independent individuals, but they are agents of the father. Now we see this in Proverbs 31. Where the woman is going out, the husband has no need of spoil, in fact he is in the gates of the land, he is a leader because he trusts his wife, who manages the affairs well, and who even is engaged in amazing acts of entrepreneurship. But, if the father did not authorize that, then those contracts and those vows would not stand. Well, the implications of this include some of the following ideas: #1, daughters aren’t to be independent. They’re not to act outside the scope of their father. As long as they’re under the authority of their fathers, fathers have the ability to nullify, or not, the oaths and the vows. Daughters just can’t go out independently and say “I’m going to marry whoever I want,†no, the father has the ability to say “No, I’m sorry, that has to be approved by me.†Or she can’t even go out and represent him on a business level unless the father says Yes, you’re authorized and you’re approved by me. Is this some sort of oppressive patriarchalism? Absolutely not. This is order. This is love. This is integrity, because what it means is instead of a whole bunch of individuals living under one house, you have a unified structure, you have a unified whole, with a God-appointed head. It also means protection for everyone else out there, it means order for society itself, and it’s a great blessing. And so what we see from Numbers Chapter 30 is the presumption, my daughter’s at home under the roof of my house, and protected by the father. What we see from Numbers Chapter 30 is that there are even legal, oath- based, covenant-based implications for this. Daughters need the approval of their dads to marry, unless of course the fathers say “Daughter, get out of here, I release you of my authority.†The problem is we don’t see any examples of that in the entire Bible. We don’t see any principle that leads us to that conclusion, we see no precepts, we see no patterns, and the only examples we see are negative examples where fathers let their daughters out and they find themselves in peril. Dinah would be one example, a daughter that went out unprotected and was raped, and it brought devastation on the family line. That’s not to suggest that that would always happen, only that the Bible is replete with examples of daughters under the roof of their protecting fathers, and it’s completely absent of any examples or principles that lead us to think that it’s normative for a daughter just to go out on her own. Numbers 30 says “Daughters, you’re under the authority of your dads.â€

Geoff Botkin: What viewers have seen in this documentary, dads having good relationships with their daughters, is not some new religious trend. This is a commandment of God. This is what is required of fathers, to draw close to their daughters, and to actively and aggressively and scripturally lead and provide and protect their girls, and prepare them for the future. And what I tell dads who’ve never done this is, you can start, you can start small, you can start today simply reading scripture, focusing your family back on the truths of scripture, modeling obedience yourself, and your family will begin to come into the order that God desires it to define. Dads, you have to lead that and you just simply have to start. And so my message to fathers and my charge to fathers is to resolve to do this, to open scripture again, impart it to your children, and build the foundation that your children can continue and that your daughters will continue if you do this for them they will love you and appreciate you for it and respect you for it.

[miffy]

I find it interesting that her health gets ignored by BRADRICK! yet she always has a well maintained appearance. I have highlighted hair almost the same as hers, it doesn't come cheap. So unless she has a friend who does it for free as a favour, her hair would cost more every 6 weeks than the Botkin girls supposedly spend in an entire year on everything.

[yewnique]

The thing I find that is fascinating is that we are being told that daughters should stay at home but nothing about what they should do in the meantime. Sure, if they have eleven billion little siblings they'll undoubtedly take on a lion's share of the childcare. But I'm 25 and an unmarried only child. What would I do to pass my time besides read books (or, in their terms, do the equivalent of a master's) or do housework? Volunteer at church? Still, that only takes up so much time. I guess I'm surprised that they lay down ideas with few suggestions on how to actually implement them in one's life.

I believe it is 'permissible' - maybe even encouraged - for young unmarried ladies to have their own home business, eg, giving music lessons, raising animals for sale, sewing clothes, etc.

[uber frau]

I believe it is 'permissible' - maybe even encouraged - for young unmarried ladies to have their own home business, eg, giving music lessons, raising animals for sale, sewing clothes, etc.

Dust ceiling fans and write children's fictionals. Sarah Maxwell sure is busy.

[nausicaa]

I find it interesting that her health gets ignored by BRADRICK! yet she always has a well maintained appearance. I have highlighted hair almost the same as hers, it doesn't come cheap. So unless she has a friend who does it for free as a favour, her hair would cost more every 6 weeks than the Botkin girls supposedly spend in an entire year on everything.

I've noticed that too. In what I call the "forlorn deck" picture, she is in full makeup and despite being well along into her pregnancy, her toes are painted. Does BRADRICK! do pedicures?

[smittykins]

But were there cellos?

And where do the dinosaurs come in? :)

[Columbia]

From three different commentaries:

In her youth - That is, say the rabbins, under twelve years of age; and under thirteen in case of a young man. Young persons of this age were considered to be under the authority of their parents, and had consequently no power to vow away the property of another.

"In her youth ..." (Numbers 30:3). This appears as a qualifier to indicate the period when a father's jurisdiction prevailed. It is unclear if this applied to those daughters still in their father's house but who were no longer young.

Girls only are specified; but minors of the other sex, who resided under the parental roof, were included, according to Jewish writers, who also consider the name "father" as comprehending all guardians of youth. We are also told that the age at which young people were deemed capable of vowing was thirteen for boys and twelve for girls.

Somehow they always overlook the "minor children" part of those verses.

[hoipolloi]

Geoff Botkin: And men who are unwilling to learn from God almighty himself, but who would rather create an alternative authority, like themselves, where they can say “I’m my own God, I can do what is right in my own eyes any time that I want to,†they will suppress the truth in unrighteousness and create fantastical systems of theology that are very complex, and they will use those theologies to justify everything that they do, including the way that they raise their families, treat their wives, bring up their daughters...

[emphasis added]

Do these people even THINK about the shite they say & peddle? Seems like you get ol' Geoff in front of a camera and the nonsense just comes pouring out.

ETA: Thank you, Marian, for doing this - and this last bit must have been excruciating to listen to, over and over, while you transcribed their idiocies.

:text-thankyoublue: :u-rock: :text-thankyoublue:

[debrand]

[emphasis added]

Do these people even THINK about the shite they say & peddle? Seems like you get ol' Geoff in front of a camera and the nonsense just comes pouring out.

ETA: Thank you, Marian, for doing this - and this last bit must have been excruciating to listen to, over and over, while you transcribed their idiocies.

:text-thankyoublue: :u-rock: :text-thankyoublue:

I was just about to post on the exact same comment. :lol: Apparently, they don't realize that Geoff just described his own attitudes toward women, specifically his own daughters.

[debrand]

Now – question: what is the most effective way for the great all time historic Satanic conspiracy deception to wreak havoc in the church? Well there’s a lot of ways to do it, but if you can undermine fundamental institutions that teach us the true meaning of Christ and his bride, if you can break down the generational legacies, if you can pervert the meaning of hierarchy and structure, then ultimately you are raising your fist at the creature creator distinctive, and at the living God himself. You are ultimately defying everything that the Bible teaches us about his progressive plan for the unfolding history of the church, and you do that by warping the basic models of family life, of what it means to be a man, of what it means to be a woman, so we shouldn’t be surprised that families are subject to tremendous attack, and the Biblical doctrine of womanhood is laughable in a culture which hates God

That is pretty dramatic. I can understand why someone who has been taught this view point might be afraid to even consider living differently. After all, their god only has a narrow view of how people are supposed to live. If you question the 'godly' authorities over you it is the same as allowing Satan into your midst. What an evil but clever way to keep anyone from ever asking anything.

[MamaJunebug]

Marian, chiming in with thanks. I could only go about 5 lines, but that was enough to slap me upside the head with their bold hypocrisy and irony. If their devoted followers had their speech transcripts to think about, would they be so eager to fall in step???? you're doing a great service. :popcorn2:

[debrand]

Dinah would be one example, a daughter that went out unprotected and was raped, and it brought devastation on the family line.

So, if a young woman goes out on her own(I guess to college or into the work force) and is sexually assaulted, she will bring DEVASTATION to the family line. This type of thinking would be harmful to any rape victim. Not only was she assaulted but she, according to Geoff, brings devastation to the family and its future. What a screwed up way to view victims of a sexual assault.