"Return of the Daughters" review

[Cleopatra7]

Extra #1 of 3: Encouraging brothers.

All the daughters interviewed for this DVD are older sisters to younger brothers.

Lourdes Torres: Older sisters have more influence in their younger brothers’ lives than they realize. Brothers of girls “in the world†hear their sisters talking about pop singers and movie stars, then want to be like those worldly men. Lourdes wants to encourage her brother to be like godly men, and so reads about men like Patrick Henry and George Washington. Andrew says his sister has been a huge blessing and influence on him. He is now more committed and self-disciplined in his homeschooling, and to how he carries himself, thanks to his sister’s encouragement through scripture and kind words.

Katie Valenti: She used to think of her brother Joey as her bothersome little brother, but now realizes she can have an influence on him so he in turn will be a positive influence the world. She sets an example of godly womanhood so he will look for a submissive, faithful, feminine woman. The goal is to be feminine, and don’t demean and tear down masculinity.

Jasmine Baucham: She is blessed to be the oldest sibling and the only girl in her family, and to set an example of godly womanhood for her brothers.

Lourdes and Andrew have taken hunters education classes together. He’s taught her how to skin a pelt and gut a deer, and she has helped him sew up pelts. This gives her the balance to be hardy, and helps her to rise or stoop to occasions as appropriate. Even though Andrew is younger, it’s almost as though he’s older, because he’s able to teach her. Lourdes can encourage and reinforce his manliness. Andrew says she’s his best friend, and is grateful for her testimony of faithfulness to their father and family.

Katie Valenti: the Valenti sisters treat Joey like a man, and strive to encourage him in his masculinity, which Joey says causes him to treat them like ladies, and have more protective feelings toward his mom and sisters. At age 15, Joey has already learned to build a house with his dad, because he’s homeschooled. His sisters have encouraged him as a man, not a child. Katie loves having him around – he is eager to learn accounting for their father’s business, and she enjoys teaching him.

I'm struck that Patrick Torres' stated role models are landed white men. There's nothing wrong with having a "dead white man" for a role model, but I wonder if the Torres and Baucham children are allowed to have role models that "look like them." Because of the dodgy racial politics of this movement, not to mention their misguided view of history, it seems like it might be alienating and confusing to be a member of an ethnic minority.

[divadivine]

She was Doug Phillips nanny...

I found this gem... I'm sure someone else has posted this but I don't have enough time to read all the threads about the downfall of the tool...

visionforumministries.org/issues/education/christian_graduations_and_youn.aspx

[Marian the Librarian]

Extra #2 of 3: The Courtship and Marriage of Peter Bradrick and Kelly Brown

(Heads up - this is Very Long, because these people do go on and on and on. They are fundie royalty, and these interviews were conducted about a year after what some considered to be the wedding of the century. Lots of wedding pictures, and extensive commentary by Doug Phillips is a Tool, can be found at visionforum.com/news/blogs/doug/default.aspx?path=/2006/08/)

Botkinettes: This is the story of two young people blazing a trail back to the Biblical foundations of marriage. This story presents a fresh perspective on courtship and marriage.

Peter: I was looking for a woman who would be not just OK with Biblical femininity and being a mother and wife, but who passionately believed in God’s program for the Biblical family.

Kelly: We have has been given the responsibility and opportunity to raise up the next generation of warriors for the lord. There will be no careers for her, no “prancing around the world fulfilling my own desires.†Humbly serving a man with a mission, and raising the next generation of warriors, will bring her the most happiness, peace and contentment.

Peter: What I saw in Kelly was a rare balance between beautiful femininity and sturdy womanhood. I saw her walking with her father in high society, dressed to the 9s, a paragon example of beautiful femininity, and a wonderful conversationalist. When he, Scott Brown and Kelly were out walking on a tour of the Brown farm, Kelly, always dressed as a model of feminine virtue and poise, dropped and rolled under a hot wire fence, then got back up and walked like a lady. Peter has never seen both capabilities in one woman before. There are many sturdy women who don’ t know how to be beautifully feminine, and many china dolls who can’t be strong, virtuous and sturdy. Kelly had fierce, deep loyalty and honor.

Kelly: She sees the importance of the father who goes out into the world, putting himself in harm’s way, looking for a young man for his daughter. The daughter shouldn’t expose herself to the search - she can have a say in the matter, but needs the hedge of her father’s protection over her.

Scott Brown: The best way a father can work to find a mate for his daughter is by doing things God has called him to do. Be a brother to other young men in the church. “God calls older men to know younger men.†Have relationships with younger men. “How many of your best friends are 13 years old? It’s important for older men to know 10, 12, 13, 14, 15 year-old men - to know their hearts. When you disciple a young man, he may be your daughter’s future husband, but he’s definitely someone’s future husband. The mistake men make is to wait until the 11th hour to get to know men. Pour your life into the small number of men in your natural circle; this is the most effective way to find a mate for your daughter.

Kelly: Peter expressed gratitude, humility, and a desire to learn from the people around him. He wasn’t just a bunch of talk. “My father has a great love for young men.†Scott fostered the mentorship relationship with Peter. He challenged him with questions, asked him where are you going in life. The relationship and bond formed between her dad and Peter first. “My father fell in love with Peter before I did.â€

Peter: Spoke with his parents and the other men in his life about Kelly. When he was ready to propose marriage, he called Scott and had 3 pages of notes ready. He read them to Scott, explaining all the reasons why he wanted to marry Kelly. He went to Scott first because he wanted to protect Kelly, in the same way her dad did. It’s not right to do an end run around the father, and if he’d gone to Kelly first, she would have sent him right back to Scott. Peter wanted to marry her, but was not sure he was the right one. Scott, as the shield over his daughter, had the perogative to say no. Peter wanted Scott’s complete and comprehensive blessing. Scott asked him to write 10-15 position papers, on subjects such as politics, child training, and marriage, with Biblical arguments for what he believed on each subject. Peter explained his mission, how he would provide for her, his vision for the future, where he would take her, what he believed about male and female jurisdictions. This went on for two months, then Scott OK’d a period of courtship. Kelly and Peter spent 5 months in hours of dialogue, leading up to their engagement. “Two things that I desperately… wanted to tell Kelly, but personally, because I made a commitment before the lord, I wouldn’t do, for the purpose of protecting Kelly, two things I didn’t day: I never told her ‘I love you,’ and I never told her she was beautiful." If he’d done this, it would have inserted an “emotional flutter†into the relationship, and he wanted to keep that out. They were in love with each other throughout their courtship, but both practiced self-discipline, because they wanted the relationship to be built on God’s word and foundations. All these dialogues (what she believed about being his helpmeet, child training, etc.) happened while she was still under her father’s protection. Withhold emotions during this phase, so if it turns out you’re not right for one another you can walk away without scars and emotional damage. They didn't spend hours on the phone cooing at each other. They were always very careful to say “if,†not “when.†He didn't act presumptuously, until after the covenant engagement, when he could tell her he loved her.

Scott: Peter and Kelly wrote their own vows, 80-90% of which were words lifted directly from scripture. Peter’s: Fight, defend, protect, lead, stay faithful. Kelly's: reverence Peter as her head, follow him, complete him as his helpmeet. They wrote very carefully-worded vows regarding children: IF they have children, rather than when, again because they didn't want to presume.

Kelly: Her parents always emphasized contentment with what you have at any given time in your life. Be content in your father’s house, then be content in your marriage. The lord had her in a season of waiting when she was single, then brought her a husband. Now she’s established in marriage and great with child, waiting for the next season of motherhood. We are always in a season of waiting. She is very grateful to her parents for the way they raised her, and eager to apply that to her own family.

[DomWackTroll]

Peter: "I saw her walking with her father in high society..."

Honey, if you think Doug Phillips' cheesy-ass conventions are "high society," you really need to get out more.

And what is his obsession with the word "sturdy"? You're choosing a life partner, Peter, not buying a freakin' deck chair.

[uber frau]

Peter: "I saw her walking with her father in high society..."

Honey, if you think Doug Phillips' cheesy-ass conventions are "high society," you really need to get out more.

And what is his obsession with the word "sturdy"? You're choosing a life partner, Peter, not buying a freakin' deck chair.

He's choosing a brood mare (with bonus points for being able to keep her house and husband on the smell of an oily rag with no mod-cons). Sturdy is definitely a quality he's looking for.

[louisa05]

I taught plenty of "worldly girls" who could hit a volleyball so hard that Peter Bradrick would get out of the way at 4 p.m. and be dressed in a formal dress with their hair up for the homecoming dance by 9 p.m. And they went to college and got degrees.

STFU, Botkins!

[Columbia]

Peter: "I saw her walking with her father in high society..."

Honey, if you think Doug Phillips' cheesy-ass conventions are "high society," you really need to get out more.

And what is his obsession with the word "sturdy"? You're choosing a life partner, Peter, not buying a freakin' deck chair.

Given everything that has been discussed here regarding "VF royalty," this does not surprise me at all.

[JesusFightClub]

Extra #1 of 3: Encouraging brothers.

All the daughters interviewed for this DVD are older sisters to younger brothers.

Lourdes Torres: Older sisters have more influence in their younger brothers’ lives than they realize. Brothers of girls “in the world†hear their sisters talking about pop singers and movie stars, then want to be like those worldly men. Lourdes wants to encourage her brother to be like godly men, and so reads about men like Patrick Henry and George Washington. Andrew says his sister has been a huge blessing and influence on him. He is now more committed and self-disciplined in his homeschooling, and to how he carries himself, thanks to his sister’s encouragement through scripture and kind words.

Katie Valenti: She used to think of her brother Joey as her bothersome little brother, but now realizes she can have an influence on him so he in turn will be a positive influence the world. She sets an example of godly womanhood so he will look for a submissive, faithful, feminine woman. The goal is to be feminine, and don’t demean and tear down masculinity.

Jasmine Baucham: She is blessed to be the oldest sibling and the only girl in her family, and to set an example of godly womanhood for her brothers.

Lourdes and Andrew have taken hunters education classes together. He’s taught her how to skin a pelt and gut a deer, and she has helped him sew up pelts. This gives her the balance to be hardy, and helps her to rise or stoop to occasions as appropriate. Even though Andrew is younger, it’s almost as though he’s older, because he’s able to teach her. Lourdes can encourage and reinforce his manliness. Andrew says she’s his best friend, and is grateful for her testimony of faithfulness to their father and family.

Katie Valenti: the Valenti sisters treat Joey like a man, and strive to encourage him in his masculinity, which Joey says causes him to treat them like ladies, and have more protective feelings toward his mom and sisters. At age 15, Joey has already learned to build a house with his dad, because he’s homeschooled. His sisters have encouraged him as a man, not a child. Katie loves having him around – he is eager to learn accounting for their father’s business, and she enjoys teaching him.

I'm an older sister with younger brothers and I didn't have to treat them in some kind of exaggerated, bizarre way for them to figure out they were men. Or "reinforce their manliness". :pink-shock:

This is a really weird idea of how to relate to your younger brothers.

[louisa05]

I'm an older sister with younger brothers and I didn't have to treat them in some kind of exaggerated, bizarre way for them to figure out they were men. Or "reinforce their manliness". :pink-shock:

This is a really weird idea of how to relate to your younger brothers.

It is one more way that these people turn family relationships into something overwrought and contrived. During my time in Fundy Lite world, I was kind of fascinated at how they over analyzed everything and made everything so complicated. No relationship could just exist. It had to be analyzed and evaluated and used to "further the kingdom". Then, outside of family and relationships, there was all the agony over where to shop, what to buy, what to watch, what to listen to...it went on and on. They were very stressed out people, who at the same time were trying to tell everyone how much contentment there was in being their type of Christian.

[Cleopatra7]

It is one more way that these people turn family relationships into something overwrought and contrived. During my time in Fundy Lite world, I was kind of fascinated at how they over analyzed everything and made everything so complicated. No relationship could just exist. It had to be analyzed and evaluated and used to "further the kingdom". Then, outside of family and relationships, there was all the agony over where to shop, what to buy, what to watch, what to listen to...it went on and on. They were very stressed out people, who at the same time were trying to tell everyone how much contentment there was in being their type of Christian.

The obsession with building a super Christian environment is characteristic of the new patriarchy/quiverfull movement. Fundies in the early to mid twentieth century were content to just wear long skirts, avoid drinking, and not listen to rock or jazz. This was probably because white Protestantism was the status quo ideology. Now that feminism, civil rights for people of color, and non-Christian ideologies have challenged the status quo, they feel a need to double their efforts to "take back America."

[louisa05]

The obsession with building a super Christian environment is characteristic of the new patriarchy/quiverfull movement. Fundies in the early to mid twentieth century were content to just wear long skirts, avoid drinking, and not listen to rock or jazz. This was probably because white Protestantism was the status quo ideology. Now that feminism, civil rights for people of color, and non-Christian ideologies have challenged the status quo, they feel a need to double their efforts to "take back America."

The people I dealt with were fundy lites--most of them married women with children who wore pants and had full time jobs. There was more to it than any of this. I think a huge part of it is a deep seated insecurity in their faith. All the worrying and trying so hard was part of proving that they really were good enough Christians. Their Christianity was a label they wore and they constantly had to be proving to themselves and each other that they really deserved it and really believed it. Outward things like not watching whatever television show or boycotting whatever they were supposed to boycott proved that they wholeheartedly believed. A lot of it became a "I'm a better Christian than you because..." game they played with each other. I always suspected that many of them had very real doubts buried deep under the facades.

[MamaJunebug]

Another review of ROTD ... warning, I got sick reading it! and the reviewer is on our side!

ingridgraceandaudrey.blogspot.com/2012_06_01_archive.html

[GolightlyGrrl]

I don't understand this "vision" thing. Bill Gates had a vision. So did Thomas Edison and Henry Ford. These men changed the world with their businesses and inventions. The men we snark about here have no other vision aside from having a quiverfull of kids and running ill-defined "ministries." They are only visionaries in their own deluded minds. To the outside world, they're just a bunch of pompous ignoramuses with too many kids. They would rather play dress-up and go to meetings of their he-man woman haters club than protect real victims like Hero.

And then there are also men like Steve Jobs, Martin Luther King, Jr., Nelson Mandela, etc.

[debrand]

I don't mean to dwell on the fact that Bradrick wrote term papers to gain Kelly's hand in marriage but for some reason, this strikes me as both horrifying and funny at the same time. Peter said that he showed up with written notes to discuss why he should be allowed to marry his future bride. That doesn't make any sense to me at all. Does the movie say when Kelly knew that Peter wanted to fill her quiver with his love arrows?

[JMarie]

Yeah she teaches, I think at a private school.

www.tcshouston.org/about-tcs/about-tcs-1

So she teaches kids whose parents refuse to homeschool them??

[Arete]

I don't mean to dwell on the fact that Bradrick wrote term papers to gain Kelly's hand in marriage but for some reason, this strikes me as both horrifying and funny at the same time. Peter said that he showed up with written notes to discuss why he should be allowed to marry his future bride. That doesn't make any sense to me at all. Does the movie say when Kelly knew that Peter wanted to fill her quiver with his love arrows?

I don't know why Peter thinks writing papers was impressive. I mean, come on, it's not like he was supposed to flesh out a reasoned argument. Scott Brown was checking to make sure that Peter could parrot VF's ideology correctly. The was only one correct argument to each of those 15 question. Peter was not going to answer a question like "What are your thoughts on family planning?" with "It needs to be a joint decision the couple come to." VF tells you what you are supposed to think, and even spells it out in seminars with notes. Scott was just verifying that Peter was fully saturated in Kool-Aid.

My personal reaction to hearing about the hoops Peter jumped through was "pathetic". The way they throw out terms like "manly" and "sturdy" and "kingdom work" makes me go :cray-cray:

[debrand]

http://www.tcshouston.org/about-tcs/about-tcs-1

So she teaches kids whose parents refuse to homeschool them??

Miss Jasmine Baucham (Fifth Grade Humanities) holds a B.A. in English Literature from Thomas Edison State College, and is currently pursuing a Master’s degree in Biblical Studies at Reformed Theological Seminary.

She went to college? Hooray for her. Wouldn't it be wonderful if she becomes a female pastor?

[karismanic]

Whoa...my real world just collided with the fundies discussed here for the first time. I know several families with kids at Trinity Classical (Jasmine's school).

Surprisingly, many of the families there are not too fundie. Most are pants-wearing, alcohol-drinking, dance-favoring evangelicals.

[uber frau]

She went to college? Hooray for her. Wouldn't it be wonderful if she becomes a female pastor?

Thomas Edison State College is the umbrella institution (and diploma printing house) for collegeMinus (and other prestigious places of education). And as for female pastors, she won't if she's graduating from Reformed Theological Seminary.

[marmalade]

^^^ Yup. The degree in English can be obtained online.

http://www.tesc.edu/academics/online-degrees.cfm

eta: College Minus only can confer a maximum of half of the units required for a college degree. It basically prepares one to transfer either to a brick and mortar, or to Thomas Edison (and places like it) for upper (and often a lot of lower) division studies.

[acheronbeach]

Several of those teachers have rather liberal educations. Moreover, one of them has a doctorate. I wonder whether Jasmine enjoys working there? Then again, Jasmine - even when she visited here and totally floundered when she tried to defend her theology - struck me as too smart to ever really fit in the Vision Forum mould.

[debrand]

I wonder why Jasmine is working outside her father's home?

When did she visit our forum? There have been so many flouncing fundies that I might have lost track of her.

[Marian the Librarian]

An update - I'm still working on Extra #3, which is Geoff Botkin and Doug Phillips is a Tool bloviating on at great length about the theology behind ROTD. No one can make this shit up - it's too good, and too fascinating given the recent turn of events in Dougie's life, not to transcribe their interviews word for word, and that's taking a bit of time. Fear not, more is forthcoming! :P

[teachergirl]

I wonder how Kelly feels now, with 5 kids in 7 years. What strikes me is how LITTLE her needs are considered, she is chosen for her "sturdiness", she isn't even made aware that Peter is pursuing her, she will follow his vision and remember, she wasn't raised like this. I love how she says they made the decision together, as if she would have ever said no to courtship and engagement. This is something that they gradually fell into....to quote our favorite Botkin women, she could have been so much more.

You have to hand it to scott brown, 3 out of his 4 children have done exactly what they wanted them to do. Young marriages, endless childbearing and not a question in their minds that it doesn't have to be this way. I feel for Kelly, blair and monica, what choice did they ever really have?

[hoipolloi]

I wonder how Kelly feels now, with 5 kids in 7 years. What strikes me is how LITTLE her needs are considered, she is chosen for her "sturdiness", she isn't even made aware that Peter is pursuing her, she will follow his vision and remember, she wasn't raised like this. I love how she says they made the decision together, as if she would have ever said no to courtship and engagement. This is something that they gradually fell into....to quote our favorite Botkin women, she could have been so much more.

You have to hand it to scott brown, 3 out of his 4 children have done exactly what they wanted them to do. Young marriages, endless childbearing and not a question in their minds that it doesn't have to be this way. I feel for Kelly, blair and monica, what choice did they ever really have?

This photo (taken between #2 and #3 a few years ago) kind of says it all.