"Return of the Daughters" review

[nausicaa]

Fundies inflate shit.

Just like housework isn't a PhD program, reading books isn't a Master's degree program. (Especially not the C-M, which I read when I was 15 and managed to comprehend - it's fairly simple and fairly short). I do research at work, it's finding stuff out, usually with the help of Google and a few things I have on my computer. That is not Master's level research - it's googling stuff on the Net. I feel a strong doubt that Jasmine Baucham is doing much more than that.

I was wondering about the reference to the Communist Manifesto too.

It was on the list of optional books to read in my world literature class in tenth grade (ages 14 to 16), in a pretty standard public school in the American South. It was actually quite popular to pick because it was much shorter and easier to understand than say Dante's Inferno or Don Quixote. I don't remember having any trouble with it.

But of course, if you are only interested in the appearance of things "Manifesto" sounds awfully grand, and one would assume it is quite the tome. To me it goes to show how unacquainted Voddie's target audience is with major books.

[Marian the Librarian]

Are the words she used, because if so, that's awesome.

Yep - this is a direct quote.

[DomWackTroll]

(We end with a picture of a newborn: "Just days after our interview, Kelly Bradrick gave birth to a son. They named him Triumph." Musical crescendo.)

[ladyamylynn]

Triumph is a great name... For me to poop on!

[Hane]

Mothers make only the briefest of appearances. Kay Valenti makes a statement in support of the stay-at-home-daughter movement; Deborah Brown is shown for a hot second talking about Peter and Kelly's wedding day (coming up in the next segment). Other than that, it's all about the fathers, and the daughters serving their fathers' vision.

Elegantly and concisely said.

[GolightlyGrrl]

Notice how the ladies who keep promoting this "Return of the Daughters," SAHD ideal are often the off-spring of notable, connected and relatively well-to-do men. It's very easy to start a business or be a part of one when resources are already in place. Not a single one of these ladies-the Botkins, Jasmine Baucham, Jennie Chancey, Katie Valenti-are starting from scratch. Not only did they not have to pull themselves by their boot straps, they were born with a walk-in closet filled with boots.

In other words, these ladies were born on third base and thought they hit a triple.

[debrand]

B

Botkinettes: Peter first privately expressed his interest in Kelly to her father. There followed a months-long evaluation process, of which Kelly had no knowledge. Scott conducted a series of interviews with Peter, and asked him to write many “theological papers.†Finally, Scott OK’d the courtship, which he defined as a season of getting to know one another - 5 months of "guarded interaction."

I grew up near a military base and know people who have had to go overseas to Iraq or Afghanistan(my sister and her husband are two such people) It isn't like I haven't been around people who society considers to be courageous but I can't imagine anyone passively agreeing to write theological papers for a girl who might not be interested in them.

The Vision Forum ideal of manhood isn't laughed at because we all view men as neanderthals or hate men. The problem is that their ideal man sounds like a spoiled teenager who can't control his urges.

Writing theological papers? Was Kelly a school project?

Kelly: She carried her parents’ checkbook, used their credit card, paid the bills, planned menus, did book work for her father, and learned how to run a household.

Responsible parents teach their children life skills regardless of whether their children will go to college or not. Do they honestly believe that female doctors and lawyers don't know how to do things like cook and balance their bank statement?

[Marian the Librarian]

Notice how the ladies who keep promoting this "Return of the Daughters," SAHD ideal are often the off-spring of notable, connected and relatively well-to-do men. It's very easy to start a business or be a part of one when resources are already in place. Not a single one of these ladies-the Botkins, Jasmine Baucham, Jennie Chancey, Katie Valenti-are starting from scratch. Not only did they not have to pull themselves by their boot straps, they were born with a walk-in closet filled with boots.

In other words, these ladies were born on third base and thought they hit a triple.

I agree completely. The only exceptions I see are Melissa Keen (I have the impression she did not come from a particularly well-to-do background), and Lourdes Torres - and we know what's happened to her. :(

[hoipolloi]

Notice how the ladies who keep promoting this "Return of the Daughters," SAHD ideal are often the off-spring of notable, connected and relatively well-to-do men. It's very easy to start a business or be a part of one when resources are already in place. Not a single one of these ladies-the Botkins, Jasmine Baucham, Jennie Chancey, Katie Valenti-are starting from scratch. Not only did they not have to pull themselves by their boot straps, they were born with a walk-in closet filled with boots.

In other words, these ladies were born on third base and thought they hit a triple.

ITA. This all fits, however, with their delusional views on history, slavery, and life in general.

[Katydid]

I agree completely. The only exceptions I see are Melissa Keen (I have the impression she did not come from a particularly well-to-do background), and Lourdes Torres - and we know what's happened to her. :(

What happened to Lourdes? I have never heard of her outside of this thread.

[Arete]

The blinders some of these women, particularly the Botkinettes, have on are incredible. Don't they observe how disempowered their own mothers are? That as mothers they essentially become non-entities in this world once their usefulness as breeders is over?

Kelly Bradrick does not look particularly happy or fulfilled having 5 kids in 6 years and being Peter's helpmeet. That is the life waiting for most of these stay-at-home daughters following their father's "vision". And that is just for the women at the very top of this pyramid.

[danvillebelle]

I went to college with Jennie. She sure seemed like she was having an OK time back then. Even (gasp) enjoying herself. I also don't buy the students giggling at her wanting to be a homemaker story. There were plenty of girls at that school who were there to get their Mrs. degree.

These days, I'm guessing Jennie and Matt are thanking their lucky stars they're several thousand miles away from the shitstorm that is the fall of VF.

[Marian the Librarian]

I went to college with Jennie. She sure seemed like she was having an OK time back then. Even (gasp) enjoying herself. I also don't buy the students giggling at her wanting to be a homemaker story. There were plenty of girls at that school who were there to get their Mrs. degree.

These days, I'm guessing Jennie and Matt are thanking their lucky stars they're several thousand miles away from the shitstorm that is the fall of VF.

I would love to hear more about this, if you felt so inclined, and comfortable.

[danvillebelle]

I would love to hear more about this, if you felt so inclined, and comfortable.

Ask away. :D

[Marian the Librarian]

Ask away. :D

I'm curious about when and how her "Do as I say, not as I do" moment of epiphany happened (i.e., it was OK for her to get a college degree, but God forbid other young women do the same). And, I'm interested in your memories and impressions of her in general - when and why did she begin pickling herself in the "Ladies Against Feminism," VF/Dominionist Kool-Aid? I gotta say, she comes across as fairly crazy-eyed in Return of the Daughters.

[FloraDoraDolly]

The blinders some of these women, particularly the Botkinettes, have on are incredible. Don't they observe how disempowered their own mothers are? That as mothers they essentially become non-entities in this world once their usefulness as breeders is over?

That's one area where Teri Maxwell has been fortunate. She plays a vital role in their family's business/ministry, writing books and giving lectures. And to give Steve his due, he doesn't parade around with his daughters on his arm as if they are trophies.

[Angharad Crewe]

The blinders some of these women, particularly the Botkinettes, have on are incredible. Don't they observe how disempowered their own mothers are? That as mothers they essentially become non-entities in this world once their usefulness as breeders is over?

Kelly Bradrick does not look particularly happy or fulfilled having 5 kids in 6 years and being Peter's helpmeet. That is the life waiting for most of these stay-at-home daughters following their father's "vision". And that is just for the women at the very top of this pyramid.

I think the Botkins have never gotten married because they realize that they would lose their influence if they did have kids. They've seen what has happened to their own mother, to Kelly Bradrick, etc and have decided that by remaining single, they have a lot more power and time to devote to their pet projects.

Jennie Chancey is the only "mother of many" VF queen who seems to maintain a certain amount of influence over the flock. She probably has way more energy than most VF mothers (who, like Kelly, are understandably totally burned out with 3 under 3) and she is way more educated than most. In the short interviews I've seen with Jennie, she is articulate and almost aggressive in her arguments. I can't see homeschooled, VF raised girls having the same rhetorical skills that Jennie has.

[danvillebelle]

I'm curious about when and how her "Do as I say, not as I do" moment of epiphany happened (i.e., it was OK for her to get a college degree, but God forbid other young women do the same). And, I'm interested in your memories and impressions of her in general - when and why did she begin pickling herself in the "Ladies Against Feminism," VF/Dominionist Kool-Aid? I gotta say, she comes across as fairly crazy-eyed in Return of the Daughters.

It was long after she left college and had been working for awhile; she talks about it on her lecture "Jennie B. and the Pilot" that VF carries (get it now for 70% off! ha ha ha). From my standpoint, she seems to have had the epiphany once she got married and didn't have to work any longer. What a coinkidink. :evil-eye:

She went to the college we attended because it was her parents' alma mater (there is a long section in "So Much More" where she talks about this, also), they encouraged her to go and she got a scholarship. Her brother came in the year after she did. She was a couple of years behind me. Other than the fact that she dressed oddly sometimes - old-fashioned looking dresses with petticoats sticking out underneath, ankle boots, sort of an Anne of Green Gables look - she was pretty normal. She was very outgoing and seemed to get along well with everyone. This college was very small then - about 500 students. I think it's about 6-7 times that size now. The professors that she tries to make sound oh-so-liberal in So Much More were anything but; this was a conservative little Christian school and nothing too off the wall would have lasted five minutes before being squashed.

We were casual friends; we had several classes together and were in the choir. She was a pretty normal, mainstream Christian girl, NO signs of anything like what she espouses now. They started a liturgical dance group one semester and she was in that. She and her brother did a comedy act in the talent show. She made the homecoming court her freshman year, if memory serves.

I remember hearing the news through the alumni grapevine when her Dad died, and feeling really, really horrible for her because I knew how close they were.

I have no idea how she got hooked up with Doug and Beall, but it was obviously all downhill from there.

[danvillebelle]

I think the Botkins have never gotten married because they realize that they would lose their influence if they did have kids. They've seen what has happened to their own mother, to Kelly Bradrick, etc and have decided that by remaining single, they have a lot more power and time to devote to their pet projects.

Jennie Chancey is the only "mother of many" VF queen who seems to maintain a certain amount of influence over the flock. She probably has way more energy than most VF mothers (who, like Kelly, are understandably totally burned out with 3 under 3) and she is way more educated than most. In the short interviews I've seen with Jennie, she is articulate and almost aggressive in her arguments. I can't see homeschooled, VF raised girls having the same rhetorical skills that Jennie has.

Yeah, and part of the reason she has them is because she had some of the same tough, kick-ass English professors I did, and had to do presentations and write papers for them. But she doesn't want the same for her own daughters. :penguin-no:

[NotALoserLikeYou]

What happened to Lourdes? I have never heard of her outside of this thread.

She was Doug Phillips nanny...

[Marian the Librarian]

It was long after she left college and had been working for awhile; she talks about it on her lecture "Jennie B. and the Pilot" that VF carries (get it now for 70% off! ha ha ha). From my standpoint, she seems to have had the epiphany once she got married and didn't have to work any longer. What a coinkidink. :evil-eye:

She went to the college we attended because it was her parents' alma mater (there is a long section in "So Much More" where she talks about this, also), they encouraged her to go and she got a scholarship. Her brother came in the year after she did. She was a couple of years behind me. Other than the fact that she dressed oddly sometimes - old-fashioned looking dresses with petticoats sticking out underneath, ankle boots, sort of an Anne of Green Gables look - she was pretty normal. She was very outgoing and seemed to get along well with everyone. This college was very small then - about 500 students. I think it's about 6-7 times that size now. The professors that she tries to make sound oh-so-liberal in So Much More were anything but; this was a conservative little Christian school and nothing too off the wall would have lasted five minutes before being squashed.

We were casual friends; we had several classes together and were in the choir. She was a pretty normal, mainstream Christian girl, NO signs of anything like what she espouses now. They started a liturgical dance group one semester and she was in that. She and her brother did a comedy act in the talent show. She made the homecoming court her freshman year, if memory serves.

I remember hearing the news through the alumni grapevine when her Dad died, and feeling really, really horrible for her because I knew how close they were.

I have no idea how she got hooked up with Doug and Beall, but it was obviously all downhill from there.

Very interesting, thank you! I haven't attempted reading "So Much More..." I will have to steel myself for that one.

I'm taking a bit of a break from FJ this afternoon, to devote some time and attention to my infinitely-patient spouse. But I will post summaries of the three extras on the DVD soon, promise!

[DomWackTroll]

Ask away. :D

Did you ever meet Fratt? I mean, Matt? What was he like?

[danvillebelle]

Did you ever meet Fratt? I mean, Matt? What was he like?

No, she didn't meet him until a couple of years after she graduated, I think. And he is several years younger than her, he would have still been in high school when she was in college.

[Cleopatra7]

I don't understand this "vision" thing. Bill Gates had a vision. So did Thomas Edison and Henry Ford. These men changed the world with their businesses and inventions. The men we snark about here have no other vision aside from having a quiverfull of kids and running ill-defined "ministries." They are only visionaries in their own deluded minds. To the outside world, they're just a bunch of pompous ignoramuses with too many kids. They would rather play dress-up and go to meetings of their he-man woman haters club than protect real victims like Hero.

[Marian the Librarian]

Extra #1 of 3: Encouraging brothers.

All the daughters interviewed for this DVD are older sisters to younger brothers.

Lourdes Torres: Older sisters have more influence in their younger brothers’ lives than they realize. Brothers of girls “in the world†hear their sisters talking about pop singers and movie stars, then want to be like those worldly men. Lourdes wants to encourage her brother to be like godly men, and so reads about men like Patrick Henry and George Washington. Andrew says his sister has been a huge blessing and influence on him. He is now more committed and self-disciplined in his homeschooling, and to how he carries himself, thanks to his sister’s encouragement through scripture and kind words.

Katie Valenti: She used to think of her brother Joey as her bothersome little brother, but now realizes she can have an influence on him so he in turn will be a positive influence the world. She sets an example of godly womanhood so he will look for a submissive, faithful, feminine woman. The goal is to be feminine, and don’t demean and tear down masculinity.

Jasmine Baucham: She is blessed to be the oldest sibling and the only girl in her family, and to set an example of godly womanhood for her brothers.

Lourdes and Andrew have taken hunters education classes together. He’s taught her how to skin a pelt and gut a deer, and she has helped him sew up pelts. This gives her the balance to be hardy, and helps her to rise or stoop to occasions as appropriate. Even though Andrew is younger, it’s almost as though he’s older, because he’s able to teach her. Lourdes can encourage and reinforce his manliness. Andrew says she’s his best friend, and is grateful for her testimony of faithfulness to their father and family.

Katie Valenti: the Valenti sisters treat Joey like a man, and strive to encourage him in his masculinity, which Joey says causes him to treat them like ladies, and have more protective feelings toward his mom and sisters. At age 15, Joey has already learned to build a house with his dad, because he’s homeschooled. His sisters have encouraged him as a man, not a child. Katie loves having him around – he is eager to learn accounting for their father’s business, and she enjoys teaching him.