5th grade speech on religion wins but ribbon is taken

[Mama Mia]

I hope my child is horrified and traumatized by reading Anne Frank or the like. It's the appropriate response to that story. I'd be legit concerned if he wasn't horrified, actually. What better way to teach children that genocide is wrong than by allowing them to read a book that puts a human face on genocide that so many kids can connect with? If they feel the terror and fear, if they realize that genocide happens to individuals that are a lot like us instead of Those People, then upcoming generations have a chance at not repeating such horrors. We read it in school. We talked about how and why genocide was allowed to happen. Then we talked about how to prevent it in the future. I hope my child has a similar experience. Yes, it sucked learning that the world is a shitty place sometimes. But I'm glad I did learn that in a supportive classroom where my questions and feelings were welcomed and supported instead of brushed aside with, "Oh, that will never happen again, go to sleep."

I agree that horrified is the best response. I'm not so sure about traumatized though. I don't know if frequent nightmares for years is the best thing. I think it depends on the age, at some point children are ready to process this information, but I think, for me, 9 was too young.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I don't know, I have mixed feelings about the appropriate age to expose children to this sort of thing. I read Diary of Anne Frank when I was 9. I was a really sensitive kid and I had nightmares for years after. I couldn't grasp how a group of people could be so cruel. I really took it to heart. Which I guess could be a good thing, but I was traumatized just from reading it, so maybe I should of been a little older? I suppose it depends on the kid.

When I was in school, I think they were actually trying to induce trauma. I was born 26 years after the Holocaust, when it was far enough in the past that people were talking about it, but recent enough that many of my classmates were children or grandchildren of survivors. My kids' school seems a bit more sensitive in their treatment of the issue - it's still part of the curriculum, but not quite as graphic, quite as early. At some point though - history is graphic and horrible and traumatic, and there's no way around that.

[BravaAmica]

When I was in school, I think they were actually trying to induce trauma. I was born 26 years after the Holocaust, when it was far enough in the past that people were talking about it, but recent enough that many of my classmates were children or grandchildren of survivors. My kids' school seems a bit more sensitive in their treatment of the issue - it's still part of the curriculum, but not quite as graphic, quite as early. At some point though - history is graphic and horrible and traumatic, and there's no way around that.

^yes And it's important to introduce the graphic and traumatic events in a safe environment where the students are safe. where they can ask questions, share feelings and brainstorm solutions instead of having the facts thrown at them without any shred of hope.

[Mama Mia]

^yes And it's important to introduce the graphic and traumatic events in a safe environment where the students are safe. where they can ask questions, share feelings and brainstorm solutions instead of having the facts thrown at them without any shred of hope.

That's a good point. And thinking back, when I read Diary of Anne Frank, I just got it off the bookshelf and read it. It was probably a year or two before they covered it in school. So that could partly be why I was so traumatized.

[canbritam]

I read The Diary of Anne Frank when I was 11 or 12 not because it was school curriculum (it was never covered in our area) but because I always read the newspapers or watches the news and a group of parents in the Toronto area was trying to get it banned from the Toronto District School Board. Every time I heard of people wanting to ban books from schools I tried to find it in my school library to read it.

Anyway, I wish people would give kids mote credit. Though at the same time, I wish I knew when they were going to talk about what so that I could also discuss it with my children. When the Haiti earthquake happened they were talking about it in school and I couldn't figure out why my five year old came home practically in tears terrified our house was going to fall down on him until at bedtime my six year old starts telling me they had talked about a giant earthquake in a place called Haiti. I'm all for talking about world events and historical events but just give us a little heads up so we can help out children process these things.

Oh, and if my child were to win an have his award taken away there would be hell to pay. I can't watch a video on my phone so don't know what it was about but if he won, he won.

[louisa05]

The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum recommends that the Holocaust and other genocides not be taught in detail to children younger than sixth grade. They also caution educators against over using or relying on graphic photos and film. The horror of the event can be grasped without traumatizing students. This section of their educators' website has general guidelines and talks about how to use images, how to put the event in proper context and how to use appropriate methodology:

http://www.ushmm.org/educators/teaching ... ethodology

[martian]

10/11.

We had a holocaust survivor come speak to our 6th grade class.

I think it was sixth grade when my teacher, whose husband was a soldier who had helped liberate a camp, brought in his personal snapshots. Little, wavy edged, black and white pictures. I remember that they were incomprehensible at first. Literally, the subject matter was so far beyond anything I'd ever conceived of that my mind just refused to recognize the images for what they were. That was just a pile of branches right? Not... people.

Pretty sure she wouldn't be allowed to do that these days. Whether that's for the best, I couldn't say. I've certainly never needed to waste a moment of time considering the claims of any Holocaust denier.

[Jana814]

I have know about the Holocaust since about 4th grade (9 years old.). As a Jewish person they taught in Hebrew School. They told us about how so many people lost their lives. When I was in HS they had a day where survivors came & talk to the students.

[mockingbird]

I can't remember when we first learned about the Holocaust in school. I remember reading books about it (fiction, like Number the Stars) in fourth or fifth grade, but I'm not sure if it was because I heard about it in school, or I just came across those books on my own. I was really interested in it though, and read non-fiction books about it as well.

I do know that we read Night for school in 8th grade though. We also had to do a project about a concentration camp (which looking back, idk, maybe not the greatest idea? Like why not have one group do concentration camps in general, one group cover something like Krystallnacht, etc. Just seems a bit narrow-focused). This was for English class, not history.

I actually didn't read Anne Frank until college, the holiday break before I took a history class on the Holocaust/Shoah. I realized I hadn't read it (not sure why - I think it was forever checked out at our library or something) and thought I probably should before taking that class.

[Jana814]

I remember knowing about Anne Frank also in 4th grade but not reading the book till 7th grade.

[FlorenceHamilton]

I listened to the little boy give his talk for the news camera.You could tell that he worked hard on the piece. He had a premise, he had facts to back it up. He was fair and balanced. He did not even blame religion for destruction, he astutely came to the conclusion that it was extremism that caused the violence. He also pointed out that charismatic characters are often at the helm of the destructive actions. He points out that the central message of faith is not a bad thing. It is the curruption by zealots.

It was a good paper and he obviously had a firm grasp on his subject. But, you know. Florida.

[CruitLvr]

I liked his speech. I thought he did a great job.

We learned about The Holocaust in the sixth grade. We even watched films and documentaries on it. On a funny note - I remember we were watching one documentary that suddenly showed full frontal nudity. Imagine that in a room full of sixth graders. :pink-shock: The teacher almost died of embarrassment and apologized profusely. It was an honest mistake and she had no idea it was in the film.

[Mama Mia]

I liked his speech. I thought he did a great job.

We learned about The Holocaust in the sixth grade. We even watched films and documentaries on it. On a funny note - I remember we were watching one documentary that suddenly showed full frontal nudity. Imagine that in a room full of sixth graders. :pink-shock: The teacher almost died of embarrassment and apologized profusely. It was an honest mistake and she had no idea it was in the film.

Yeah, I think full frontal nudity would be the least of my concerns when seeing images of people being tortured, starved and exterminated.

[latraviata]

I agree that horrified is the best response. I'm not so sure about traumatized though. I don't know if frequent nightmares for years is the best thing. I think it depends on the age, at some point children are ready to process this information, but I think, for me, 9 was too young.

Oh Please......! Traumatised by a book and causing nightmares for years????

[Mama Mia]

Oh Please......! Traumatised by a book and causing nightmares for years????

Um, yeah actually. I took it really to heart and absolutely could not fathom with my 9 year old brain how an entire group of people old be so horrible to another entire group of people, and how they could kill children. And being 9, I also didn't see what would stop it from happening again, to say....me. Or my friends. So I don't care if you believe me, but it completely freaked me out, sent my mind spinning and caused nightmares for years. Particularly as my school teacher that year was born in a Japanese Internment Camp in California. So it didn't seem all that far fetched.

There is a reason you don't expose small children to, say, R rated movies, or let your 7 year old play Grand Theft Auto 5, or have them read about real world horrors before they are emotionally and cognitively able to process it.

A couple years later, in a structured setting, might have caused a different reaction than just grabbing it at the library on my own and reading it.

[latraviata]

Um, yeah actually. I took it really to heart and absolutely could not fathom with my 9 year old brain how an entire group of people old be so horrible to another entire group of people, and how they could kill children. And being 9, I also didn't see what would stop it from happening again, to say....me. Or my friends. So I don't care if you believe me, but it completely freaked me out, sent my mind spinning and caused nightmares for years. Particularly as my school teacher that year was born in a Japanese Internment Camp in California. So it didn't seem all that far fetched.

There is a reason you don't expose small children to, say, R rated movies, or let your 7 year old play Grand Theft Auto 5, or have them read about real world horrors before they are emotionally and cognitively able to process it.

A couple years later, in a structured setting, might have caused a different reaction than just grabbing it at the library on my own and reading it.

The children who were victims of the Holocaust, they are traumatised! I was never censored by my parents nor were my children and the majority of the Dutch children. Personally I never had a child in my practice who was traumatised by a book. I believe it had a certain impact on you, but are your sure the only reason was because you were a sensitive child? There was nothing else going on? Imagine I said it before, I was born in 1948, all I (and all children my generation) heard were (personal) horror stories from the war, at home and at school. My maternal grandmother was jewish, practically all her family members were deported from Southern France to the concentration camps, hardly anybody survived. And that was just one story. As for Anne Frank's diary, she describes life in the 'Achterhuis' it is a 'document humaine' there is nothing about a concentration camp in there, they found her diary after they have been arrested and deported.

[Mama Mia]

I'm sure I was hearing other background information going on that rounded out my perception of the Holocaust other than the book, since my fears included the concentration camps. So I'm assuming things I overheard, or something on television, or other books. There wasn't some deeper issue going on at that point in my life.

Obviously I am not comparing my level of trauma to actual Holocaust survivors ! That's ridiculous.

I don't understand how you can think it is appropriate for young children to see/ read absolutely anything and everything. You really think it is healthy for a child to watch , for example, snuff porn? Extremely violent movies with people being graphically chopped to bits? Novels glorifying gang rape? Anything and everything with no consideration to the impact on children's development? I don't see how that is any less clueless and harmful than the parents we snark on here who go completely the opposite direction and try to shield their children from everything while expecting them to behave like adults.

I have, like most people, gone through actual horrible experiences of my own, so it's not like reading that novel was the worst thing that ever happened to me, but yes...nightmares several times a week, general anxiety etc...because the implications about what humans were capable of were, to me, completely mind boggling and uncomprehendable.

[latraviata]

I'm sure I was hearing other background information going on that rounded out my perception of the Holocaust other than the book, since my fears included the concentration camps. So I'm assuming things I overheard, or something on television, or other books. There wasn't some deeper issue going on at that point in my life.

Obviously I am not comparing my level of trauma to actual Holocaust survivors ! That's ridiculous.

I don't understand how you can think it is appropriate for young children to see/ read absolutely anything and everything. You really think it is healthy for a child to watch , for example, snuff porn? Extremely violent movies with people being graphically chopped to bits? Novels glorifying gang rape? Anything and everything with no consideration to the impact on children's development? I don't see how that is any less clueless and harmful than the parents we snark on here who go completely the opposite direction and try to shield their children from everything while expecting them to behave like adults.

I have, like most people, gone through actual horrible experiences of my own, so it's not like reading that novel was the worst thing that ever happened to me, but yes...nightmares several times a week, general anxiety etc...because the implications about what humans were capable of were, to me, completely mind boggling and uncomprehendable.

I can assure you my children were/are fine. You know why? Everything was negotiable in our family, very open and liberal, we still are.

Initially you claimed to be 'traumatised' by reading 'Anne Frank' at the tender age of 9. Please get real and redefine 'traumatised'.

You claim that Zsu is exaggerating her emergency pregnancy, well she is not, her condition is quite serious, take it from poor uncensored, traumatised Cuteneurorad. At the same time you claim with drey eyes to be traumatised by reading 'Anne Frank' I must say, perhaps you were sensitive as a child, well you appear to be not very sensitive as an adult.

[Savoring Samsara]

I was a 5th grader in the early 90s. I don't remember when we first covered the Holocaust in class, but I clearly remember doing a lengthy report on the atomic bomb as a 5th grade project. I also remember reading a children's novel on my own in 4th grade that may have been called "The Hiding Place" that was about two Jewish sisters who were hidden from the Nazis in France. So I clearly had some awareness of the darker parts of history at that age. I do think this is changing now and schools are less willing to teach those topics so early. I understand that impulse, but if a child becomes interested in a particular facet of history on their own, it should be a teacher's job to encourage that in age appropriate ways. If the teacher in question didn't want to dwell on religiously motivated mass murders, perhaps she could have used the speech to segue into a discussion of people in history who fought for religious tolerance and pluralism.

On a related topic, if I were a teacher, I think I would save the Diary of Anne Frank until middle school. I think it would have a bigger impact on students who were closer to Anne's age and can better identify with her concerns. As for finding it traumatizing or upsetting, sometimes kids can be strongly affected by much stranger and less depressing things than a book related to the Holocaust, so I don't find that hard to believe. Even if the reaction is extreme, attacking someone over it isn't very helpful.

[latraviata]

I was a 5th grader in the early 90s. I don't remember when we first covered the Holocaust in class, but I clearly remember doing a lengthy report on the atomic bomb as a 5th grade project. I also remember reading a children's novel on my own in 4th grade that may have been called "The Hiding Place" that was about two Jewish sisters who were hidden from the Nazis in France. So I clearly had some awareness of the darker parts of history at that age. I do think this is changing now and schools are less willing to teach those topics so early. I understand that impulse, but if a child becomes interested in a particular facet of history on their own, it should be a teacher's job to encourage that in age appropriate ways. If the teacher in question didn't want to dwell on religiously motivated mass murders, perhaps she could have used the speech to segue into a discussion of people in history who fought for religious tolerance and pluralism.

On a related topic, if I were a teacher, I think I would save the Diary of Anne Frank until middle school. I think it would have a bigger impact on students who were closer to Anne's age and can better identify with her concerns. As for finding it traumatizing or upsetting, sometimes kids can be strongly affected by much stranger and less depressing things than a book related to the Holocaust, so I don't find that hard to believe. Even if the reaction is extreme, attacking someone over it isn't very helpful.

Oh dear...am I attacking? Am I supposed to be helpful? With what?

[Mama Mia]

I can assure you my children were/are fine. You know why? Everything was negotiable in our family, very open and liberal, we still are.

Initially you claimed to be 'traumatised' by reading 'Anne Frank' at the tender age of 9. Please get real and redefine 'traumatised'.

You claim that Zsu is exaggerating her emergency pregnancy, well she is not, her condition is quite serious, take it from poor uncensored, traumatised Cuteneurorad. At the same time you claim with drey eyes to be traumatised by reading 'Anne Frank' I must say, perhaps you were sensitive as a child, well you appear to be not very sensitive as an adult.

In the Zsu thread I did not say that she is exaggerating her pregnancy. Not at all. Actually, on that thread, I have said repeadly that her story sounds completely plausible to me and that I don't think that the people questioning her know what they are talking about.

And if you let your child watch, for example, snuff porn, as a small child, you have some very serious issues. I highly doubt you would have allowed that, and FYI negotiable and un-censored are not the same thing.

I have no idea why you are attacking my own experience, you keep throwing out that you are a therapist, but you seem to have very odd views for someone presumably trained in the field. I know English is not your first language, but perhaps you should take that into consideration when you insist that your usage of every term is the only correct one.

[latraviata]

In the Zsu thread I did not say that she is exaggerating her pregnancy. Not at all. Actually, on that thread, I have said repeadly that her story sounds completely plausible to me and that I don't think that the people questioning her know what they are talking about.

And if you let your child watch, for example, snuff porn, as a small child, you have some very serious issues. I highly doubt you would have allowed that, and FYI negotiable and un-censored are not the same thing.

I have no idea why you are attacking my own experience, you keep throwing out that you are a therapist, but you seem to have very odd views for someone presumably trained in the field. I know English is not your first language, but perhaps you should take that into consideration when you insist that your usage of every term is the only correct one.

Snuff porn? I don't recall they ever had watched that, perhaps later in life. Yes, I may have odd views for someone trained in the field. But their is a world between the American and western European psychology/psychiatry views and practice. Are you sure you are able to judge my abilities as a pychologist based on what, my private appearance here on the forum? You are familiar with exercising the métier? Although English is not my first language, I know what the word trauma means, you'd rather wanted me to talk about you being damaged, that didn't work very well did it?

By the way the word damage(d) is used in English professional literature, but never mind....

With negotionable I meant open to discuss, talk about it. If they had seen, for example, 'a snuff porn movie', I am quite sure they had told me and asked questions about that.

So, feel free to question my professional abilities or my parental abilities, without tapping myself on the shoulders, I wasn't really unsuccesful as a psychologist nor as parent. Before you start, no I was and I am not perfect.

Sorry for the mix up regarding Zsu's exaggerating her emergency pregnancy.

[Mama Mia]

I think your use of the word " damaged" was also flawed. However you seem to be much too arrogant to just admit that you are misusing a term. If you want to defend a small child seeing snuff porn, just to prove your point, than yes, indeed you have issues. And I'm saying that from MY professional experience as a social worker.

Obviously no one expects anyone to be acting in their role as a therapist, or educator, or doctor or any other profession, in their discussions here. But if you insist on using that role to justify your views people are going to include it in the discussion.

[latraviata]

I think your use of the word " damaged" was also flawed. However you seem to be much too arrogant to just admit that you are misusing a term. If you want to defend a small child seeing snuff porn, just to prove your point, than yes, indeed you have issues. And I'm saying that from MY professional experience as a social worker.

Obviously no one expects anyone to be acting in their role as a therapist, or educator, or doctor or any other profession, in their discussions here. But if you insist on using that role to justify your views people are going to include it in the discussion.

Actually I have admitted that. I was talking about the damaging effect strict religious upbringing might have on children, you took that very personally. So many times things are taken out of context, I see it on FJ forum all the time. The discussion derails, assumptions and wrong conclusions are made, I am not talking about me, it happens to many others as well.

Well I have to live with my issues then, thank you for the heads up, better late than never!

Whatever!!

[Mama Mia]

Actually I have admitted that. I was talking about the damaging effect strict religious upbringing might have on children, you took that very personally. So many times things are taken out of context, I see it on FJ forum all the time. The discussion derails, assumptions and wrong conclusions are made, I am not talking about me, it happens to many others as well.

Well I have to live with my issues then, thank you for the heads up, better late than never!

Whatever!!

This, again, shows your lack of basic reading comprehension. I did not take you using the term "permenantly damaged" personally. Disagreeing with someone's analysis of a situation is not the same as taking something personally. I did not grow up in a remotely strict religous home. You insisted on using the term despite many people telling you it was not only offensive, but not accurate to their lives. I'm curious, do you know what snuff porn is? And would you think it is appropriate for a small child to watch?