"Human face of poverty" video ignores the obvious

[2xx1xy1JD]

This is a video, designed to get North American supporters outraged about Israeli government cutbacks to benefits that ultra-Orthodox families, particularly those that have a father who does religious studies all day instead of working, rely upon.

Unlike much of the stuff that comes out of this community, most of the video is in English, but some translations are still in order.

Kollel: religious study institution for married men. Some pay a small stipend.

Mesiros nefesh: self-sacrifice

avreichim: men who study in a kollel

Here's what else you need to keep in mind as you watch the video:

They talk about how the ultra-Orthodox community has been particularly hard hit. That's true. They talk about children being innocent victims. That's also true.

What they don't mention is that the same organizations that are doing this video and screaming the loudest about the tragedy of kids living in poverty are the ones who are ALSO pushing the idea that ultra-Orthodox men in Israel should learn perpetually instead of getting a job, who are up in arms about the idea of having men in that community serve in the army - even for a shortened and modified service - and then work, who protest when the Israeli government tries to impose some minimal academic standards on schools so that ultra-Orthodox kids can learn a bit of Hebrew and English and math before they graduate, and who discourage higher education if it takes place outside of their tight circle.

They also encourage having lots of children, and putting faith in God even if you don't think that you can feed more mouths.

There is a concept in Judaism called "pikuach nefesh", which means that you are required to protect life even if it means forgoing another commandment. They themselves are saying that kids are suffering from malnutrition! Instead of blaming the government for reducing handouts, shouldn't they be saying that in a desperate situation like this, it's okay for men to go to the army and then get jobs instead of sitting in kollel forever, and that it's ok for men and women to get proper secular educations so that they can find work that pays enough to support a family, and that it's ok to use birth control if you are worried that you can't feed your kids?

[debrand]

I will have to look over the video tomorrow but this is interesting. So, some Orthodox Jewish men believe that they should spend their entire lives studying scripture and not hold an outside job? How old is that belief? It seems like a hard belief to follow if you lived in a farming community a long time ago.

[anjulibai]

I will have to look over the video tomorrow but this is interesting. So, some Orthodox Jewish men believe that they should spend their entire lives studying scripture and not hold an outside job? How old is that belief? It seems like a hard belief to follow if you lived in a farming community a long time ago.

Yeah, that has always confused me. The Israelites and the people of the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah were illiterate farmers and shepherds. No studying for them.

So why the focus on studying now?

There was on article on Slate a few years ago that discussed the fact that the Judaism changed towards an intellectual bent. It suggested that's why there are so many prominent Jewish scientists, mathematicians and writers - the religion, once it began focusing on studying, self-selected against non-intellectual individuals, who became lower status. It was in interesting hypothesis.

I do think it's the height of hubris to think that you are so special that you should be able to study your religion all your life without contributing anything to the rest of society, or at least consider your studying as your contribution.

[Childless]

While I do feel sorry for the children, I mostly feel sorry they have idiots as parents. If you choose to do something with your life that will net you $0, then don't have kids. End of story. I would love to spend all my time building schools/homes/wells in Africa or doing other humanitarian work. Unfortunately, it doesn't pay anything and I have a son to raise. So, I go to work like everyone else. Sure, it's not my dream work, but it pays the bills and my son needs food, clothing, shelter, and an education. I definitely don't think the government should be in the business of financing life long religious study. Perhaps, the synagogues should take up a collection to pay these individuals if they think it's that important an activity.

Also, given the general American attitude toward people on the dole, I don't think this video is going to garner much sympathy here.

[docmom]

While I do feel sorry for the children, I mostly feel sorry they have idiots as parents. If you choose to do something with your life that will net you $0, then don't have kids. End of story. I would love to spend all my time building schools/homes/wells in Africa or doing other humanitarian work. Unfortunately, it doesn't pay anything and I have a son to raise. So, I go to work like everyone else. Sure, it's not my dream work, but it pays the bills and my son needs food, clothing, shelter, and an education. I definitely don't think the government should be in the business of financing life long religious study. Perhaps, the synagogues should take up a collection to pay these individuals if they think it's that important an activity.

Also, given the general American attitude toward people on the dole, I don't think this video is going to garner much sympathy here.[/quote]

Except of course for the glaring double standard that exists in fundiedom and a lot of right wing America when it comes to government funds- Medicaid is bad except when I need it, unemployment benefits are of the devil except when it's me who's lost their job, men should provide for their families without government help unless they are doing the Lord's work...

[Cleopatra7]

From what I understand, haredim are very attached to "HaAretz Yisrael" (i.e., the land of Israel), but do not believe in the secular state of Israel, because they think that it's a sin for Jews to have their own state before the Messiah comes. However, they have no problem with accepting benefits from the state that they despise so much, because they think that Torah study protects the land in a mystical sort of way. In many ways this mindset is similar to what we see among Christians like John Shrader, the Roderiguez family, or the Bates family, where the man is purposely unemployed to pursue some ill-definied "ministry," while bad-mouthing the government (except when they need it) and expecting other people or institutions to take care of the dozens of children who had no choice but to have losers for parents.

Here's a link to an orthodox blog where they're discussing the issue in depth:

haemtza.blogspot.com/2013/11/whose-fault-is-it-anyway.html#disqus_thread

There's a lot of Hebrew and Yiddish thrown around, and it helps to have a prior knowledge of Israeli politics, but you should be able to Google any terms or issues that are unfamiliar.

[chaotic life]

I have to take the very unpopular stance, don't intentionally have children you cannot afford, and don't devote your life to unpaid study and leave those children without basic necessities.

[anjulibai]

I think one of the biggest messed up parts is not just that so many of the ultra-Orthodox take subsidies because they refuse to work, but that they condemn non-Orthodox Israelis (heck, even other, less extreme Orthodox) for not living the ultra-Orthodox lifestyle. They openly harass other Israelis who don't follow Halacha like they do. They are totally dependent on the rest of Israeli society while openly condemning the rest of Israeli society.

[GeoBQn]

They also outright accuse other Jews of not being Jewish enough--which is a problem when they control religious matters in the state. There have been times when disproportionately high numbers of Russian Jews were killed in suicide bombings at night clubs and on busses, and the ultra-Orthodox Rabbinical Council ordered that the victims could not be buried in Jewish cemeteries because there were questions about if they were Jewish according to halakhah.

[anjulibai]

They also control weddings and divorce, which is really stupid.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Yeah, that has always confused me. The Israelites and the people of the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah were illiterate farmers and shepherds. No studying for them.

So why the focus on studying now?

There was on article on Slate a few years ago that discussed the fact that the Judaism changed towards an intellectual bent. It suggested that's why there are so many prominent Jewish scientists, mathematicians and writers - the religion, once it began focusing on studying, self-selected against non-intellectual individuals, who became lower status. It was in interesting hypothesis.

I do think it's the height of hubris to think that you are so special that you should be able to study your religion all your life without contributing anything to the rest of society, or at least consider your studying as your contribution.

Arg...had a long response typed, and lost it. Here's the condensed version:

There was a shift in Judaism that took place during the Talmudic era (at least 2,000 years ago). The emphasis shifted from making sacrifices in the Temple in Jerusalem, to engaging in rigorous study of religious texts and having scholars debate various interpretations of those texts. Yes, there was a huge emphasis on study and intellectual achievement was prized. Eventually, this carried over into the secular realm.

For most of Jewish history, though, while there was a huge emphasis on study, there was also the practical reality of earning a living. Watch "If I Was A Rich Man" on YouTube from Fiddler on the Roof. [Yes, I know it's a musical and not a documentary.] At the end, Tevye's fantasizing about how the most wonderful thing about being rich would be having the time to sit in synagogue and study all day. So, that ideal existed as a dream - but the majority were poor and the reality was that they had to do whatever they could to put food on the table.

It's was only in the post-war era that the idea of having most young men in Haredi communities engage in unlimited full-time study, even after they were married and had children, took hold. It was a NEW direction from the Haredi leadership, initially sparked by the fact that so many scholars and religious academies had been wiped out in the Holocaust, and by the fact that government support (esp. in Israel) suddenly made this feasible.

[anjulibai]

Arg...had a long response typed, and lost it. Here's the condensed version:

There was a shift in Judaism that took place during the Talmudic era (at least 2,000 years ago). The emphasis shifted from making sacrifices in the Temple in Jerusalem, to engaging in rigorous study of religious texts and having scholars debate various interpretations of those texts. Yes, there was a huge emphasis on study and intellectual achievement was prized. Eventually, this carried over into the secular realm.

For most of Jewish history, though, while there was a huge emphasis on study, there was also the practical reality of earning a living. Watch "If I Was A Rich Man" on YouTube from Fiddler on the Roof. [Yes, I know it's a musical and not a documentary.] At the end, Tevye's fantasizing about how the most wonderful thing about being rich would be having the time to sit in synagogue and study all day. So, that ideal existed as a dream - but the majority were poor and the reality was that they had to do whatever they could to put food on the table.

It's was only in the post-war era that the idea of having most young men in Haredi communities engage in unlimited full-time study, even after they were married and had children, took hold. It was a NEW direction from the Haredi leadership, initially sparked by the fact that so many scholars and religious academies had been wiped out in the Holocaust, and by the fact that government support (esp. in Israel) suddenly made this feasible.

That makes sense (also, LOVE Fiddler on the Roof).

It still seems to me, though, to be hubris to think that you needed to only repair the religious part of your community while not repairing the practical part of the community. Someone had to develop society in terms of food, housing, finances, etc. when Israel was founded. Leaving that to the secular and non-Orthodox religious Jews seems very selfish to me.

And really, they should have viewed it as a temporary solution from the beginning. I read yesterday that within 15 years a fifth of Israeli society will be Haredi. You just can't have a fifth of your society not working and living off the rest.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I agree that it's hubris.

Here's a sample of that thinking, from the PR guy for the Haredi umbrella organization:

http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/ ... eet-cindy/

Just one small clarification - the Orthodox community in Israel is roughly split into 2 factions: Haredi and Religious Zionist. The Religious Zionist group serves in the army, works, and tends to be very critical of the Haredi avoidance of these things. The split between the two groups is starker there than it is in North America.

If anything, your stats for the growth of the Haredi sector sounds low. One government minister said that 32% of first grade students in Israel are Haredi. It's not a matter of the state helping a few exceptional cases in a community facing extinction anymore.

[anjulibai]

Thanks! I'm not up on the terminology (I'm not Jewish).

The stat I read yesterday might have been from a few years ago.

To me, this comes across as a future of Israel issue. The country just won't survive if such a large segment is living off of others.

I think this is an issue with the fundie, have-as-many-children-as-you-can-produce model. Ultimately, other people are going to have to provide support in some way - God is not going to rain manna from Heaven (this analogy works for both Christians and Jews).

[Hane]

2xx1xy1jd, after seeing a phenomenal production of Fiddler last week, I've been rereading the Sholem Aleichem stories it was based on. One interesting point in them: Tevye, who is poor, prizes learning, but few of his rich customers do. He regularly butts heads with the local priest, a condescending jerk, over scriptural matters.

I can see this attitude of "learning is more valuable than the pursuit of filthy lucre" playing out in modern day Israel.

[Arete]

2xx1xy1jd, after seeing a phenomenal production of Fiddler last week, I've been rereading the Sholem Aleichem stories it was based on. One interesting point in them: Tevye, who is poor, prizes learning, but few of his rich customers do. He regularly butts heads with the local priest, a condescending jerk, over scriptural matters.

I can see this attitude of "learning is more valuable than the pursuit of filthy lucre" playing out in modern day Israel.

The Haredim in Israel actually believe that as long as they are studying, that Jews won't die from missiles, or car bombings, or plagues, etc. Their learning is valuable to them in that in their eyes it postpones the wrath of an angry God, who is getting ready to smite all Jews for the ones that do not keep the commandments perfectly. The Haredim have no problems asking for or spending the filthy lucre generated by "Jews with Jobs", and in fact think it is there place to generate money so the Haredim can study.

In the meantime, they consider themselves the arbiters of all Jewish behavior, and have no problem pelting cars driving on the Sabbath with stones, chasing women (and little girls) who they consider immodest out of their neighborhoods while screaming "Whore!" and segregating public buses. They don't prize learning so much as they prize control.

[Hane]

The Haredim in Israel actually believe that as long as they are studying, that Jews won't die from missiles, or car bombings, or plagues, etc. Their learning is valuable to them in that in their eyes it postpones the wrath of an angry God, who is getting ready to smite all Jews for the ones that do not keep the commandments perfectly. The Haredim have no problems asking for or spending the filthy lucre generated by "Jews with Jobs", and in fact think it is there place to generate money so the Haredim can study.

In the meantime, they consider themselves the arbiters of all Jewish behavior, and have no problem pelting cars driving on the Sabbath with stones, chasing women (and little girls) who they consider immodest out of their neighborhoods while screaming "Whore!" and segregating public buses. They don't prize learning so much as they prize control.

Thanks for the info, AreteJo. That was something I wasn't fully aware of.