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Janes Heir

Wounded Eagles: Fundie Scandals

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Janes Heir

On the Doug Phillips is a tool who resigned from VF thread, I mentioned wishing I could talk about similar situations in my denomination. Several members encouraged me to start a thread. I don't have time to type long back-grounds on these situations right now, but will post links. I'll be posting on a few situations in Seventh-day Adventist circles, but if others want to expand the conversation withbtheir own stories, go ahead.

 

The title of this post refers to Samuel Korentang Pipim, a prominant proponent of biblical literalism/inerrancy, and opponent of women's ordination. After it was revealed that during meetings in Africa he raped a young woman seeking spiritual guidance, his church membership was removed. A year later he was seeking rebaptism (still denying non-consensual sex or even that he needed to confess to his wife) and then more accusations surfaced. So he started a ministry for "wounded eagles" who fall seven times so they can be greater tools for God. Here's a longer version of the story: /spectrummagazine.org/blog/2012/06/06/receiving-bird-samuel-koranteng-pipim-seeks-rebaptism-sabbath

 

I'm on my phone, so please forgive typos.

Edited by OnceUponATime
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Trynn

I know the Pipims. All of them. Been to their house on multiple occasions. If anyone has any questions, I can answer them. I'm not sure, thought, how much I want to post on a public forum... but you can always ask.

I am only aware of the rape allegations from things posted on the internet... they've not come up in any official way, which is why there's been no trial and he's not in prison. The rape allegations are, to my knowledge, hearsay. That doesn't mean I don't think they couldn't be true. I still don't know what to believe as far as that goes. I'm still keeping an open mind.

I know that the Ann Arbor church doesn't like him and has tried to keep us away from him. However, none of us has done that, probably because no one indicated it was rape. I have a very hard time believing the A2 church wouldn't warn us about that and would instead try to keep us in the dark...

I've even read his book on the subject, which was given to me as a gift when I visited his home after the incident.

Actually, truth be told, Pipim is not the leader in the movement that has me most worried about personal safety. That would be another leader at CAMPUS HOPE ministries. (CAMPUS HOPE= Center for Adventist Ministry to Public University Students Hope= Helping others prepare for eternity.)

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Janes Heir
I know the Pipims. All of them. Been to their house on multiple occasions. If anyone has any questions, I can answer them. I'm not sure, thought, how much I want to post on a public forum... but you can always ask.

I am only aware of the rape allegations from things posted on the internet... they've not come up in any official way, which is why there's been no trial and he's not in prison. The rape allegations are, to my knowledge, hearsay. That doesn't mean I don't think they couldn't be true. I still don't know what to believe as far as that goes. I'm still keeping an open mind.

I know that the Ann Arbor church doesn't like him and has tried to keep us away from him. However, none of us has done that, probably because no one indicated it was rape. I have a very hard time believing the A2 church wouldn't warn us about that and would instead try to keep us in the dark...

I've even read his book on the subject, which was given to me as a gift when I visited his home after the incident.

Actually, truth be told, Pipim is not the leader in the movement that has me most worried about personal safety. That would be another leader at CAMPUS HOPE ministries. (CAMPUS HOPE= Center for Adventist Ministry to Public University Students Hope= Helping others prepare for eternity.)

Fascinating. Was Ann Arbor the church he was going ti be rebaptized into? I believe the rebaptism was cancelled because more legations were brought up, and others pointed to him continually inviting youth for sleep overs and trips, even after he was disfellowshiped. Here's an interview with a therapist who worked with the probable victim: thttp://www.atoday.org/article/1221/news/2012/june-headlines/pipim-sexual-abuse-victim-the-story-from-a-first-person-observer

Have you read his book? Is it mostly about sexual sins? Does he tell his own version of events and differentiate between "rising" from various forms of misconduct? I was horrified by his claim that he didn't need to confess a "private sin" to his wife, as if it was no more damaging than if he over-ate or drank coffee (both sins to the Last Generation Theology Adventists he associated with).

When I was about 12 my family was given a book of his on ethics and some of the scenarios stuck in my mind. It wasn't until just recently that a feminist emphasis on enthusiastic consent showed me how something like the following negates a basic definition of rape as forced sex:

"A terrorist holds your only child hostage at the point of a loaded-gun, demanding to have sex with you before your child is freed.  Is it right for you to have sex with the terrorist to save your child's life? YES NO" (from http://www.drpipim.org/seminar-handouts-contemporaryissues-101/133-faithful-unto-death-seminar-handouts.html)

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Janes Heir

Sorry to double post. It was going to be a really long post if I replied to everything. Also, sorry for getting mixed up o whether you'd read his Eagles book or just been given it. I don't want you to have to answer if you aren't comfortable, but did his giving out such a book come across as arrogant or unrepentent?

Is Campus Hope an offshoot of Campus Ministries, with involvement from Pipim and Randy Skeete? What specifically about it is concerning you?

To my fellow current/former Sdas: Have you heard of Jim Hohnberger and his "affair" (some say with someone he groomed)?

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duplessis3

Since the crime happened in Botswana, there wouldn't be any US charges.

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Trynn

Ok. None asked so far make me uncomfortable, so I'll do my best to answer all questions. (I think it's more like, I don't want to post anything too private, if that makes sense? THough I probably don't even know a lot of private things... I am not sure.)

Was Ann Arbor the church he was going ti be rebaptized into?

I think so, but it wasn't 100% clear at the time. I was canvassing, and we were going to go, but it got canceled for reasons we weren't told about. It would either have been Ann Arbor, Ypsilanti, or Oakwood. I THINK the article the OP linked to specified the A2 (A2=Ann Arbor) so that fits.

The Ann Arbor church is not a healthy church, anyway. It's a very spiteful and petty congregation, which is another reason I'm not sure if I believe Pipim raped anybody. Even before the rape allegations were known, they were very anti-Pipim. That's not saying that he couldn't have raped anyone, just that... I don't know.

others pointed to him continually inviting youth for sleep overs and trips, even after he was disfellowshiped.

I know some males (they were male friends of mine. Are male friends of mine) that stayed at the Pipim's house while they were homeless. This happened after the Dr. was disfellowshipped. If any females ever stayed there, it was while Dr. Pipim was out of town, at least after the disfellowshipping. His wife, Mrs. Pipim, would've been the one hosting. After that fiasco no female youth, as far as I'm aware, stayed at his house while Dr. P was there. Actually, one of my friends is still living there. His name I will not give.

Have you read his book? Is it mostly about sexual sins? Does he tell his own version of events and differentiate between "rising" from various forms of misconduct? I was horrified by his claim that he didn't need to confess a "private sin" to his wife, as if it was no more damaging than if he over-ate or drank coffee (both sins to the Last Generation Theology Adventists he associated with).

1. Yes, I have read his book. It does discuss his sin, but not in detail. It more discusses the fall out. Here is a link to my review on amazon.com (under my real name, so I'm breaking the link: amazon.com/Six-More-Chances-Samuel-Koranteng-Pipim-ebook/dp/B007H96WT0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1384316117&sr=8-1&keywords=wounded+eagle+pipim

2. The book is mostly about how he has had to move on from his sin... I sent the book back to my parents' house because I was done reading it, but if anyone is interested I could have them send it down. This would take days, though, and if everyone's interest is going to move on by then I don't want to do it. But I wouldn't mind posting quotes.

3. I'm not sure what you mean by "differentiate between rising from various forms of misconduct." could you please clarify?

4. I don't remember off the top of my head, but in the book I don't think he states that he didn't tell his wife. I think I would've picked up on that, because even at my fundiest, I would've not approved of his not going to his wife right away. I'm pretty sure he implied that he told his wife just before he made his announcement to the rest of the world. As far as we know (we=campus) MRs. Pipim found out at the same time as the Doctor.

did his giving out such a book come across as arrogant or unrepentent?

Dr. Pipim gives out his books all the time. If you go to his house after he's written any new ones, you're likely to be offered a copy. I've gotten at least 3 books from him this way, so it wasn't at all odd to be given a copy. I did notice he had to self publish this one though, in contrast with previous books he'd written. The tone of his book did not come across as arrogant. Actually, most of the book was Ellen White quotes and bible quotes. Therefore it's hard to get an actual tone of the author unless, like me, you're really good at distinguishing Ellen White speak from regular speak. Even then, it's sorta hard to tell what Dr. Pipim's tone would be... I think I would have to say it was written sorta like one of his sermons. Often while reading it I could definitely picture him saying it like he would in a sermon, if that makes any sense? And I've sat through quite a bit of his sermons.

The book was written before the rape allegations came to light, and are not commented on in the book.

Is Campus Hope an offshoot of Campus Ministries, with involvement from Pipim and Randy Skeete? What specifically about it is concerning you?

CAMPUS HOPE *is* Campus Ministries. It's the like, official name, I guess. Mostly it just gets called campus. Dr. Pipim was always the head of it, until his public resignation. I'm not honesty sure if Randy Skeete has anything to do with the CAMPUS leadership... I know he teaches classes at campus ministries sometimes, but I thought he was just a regular pastor, rather than a leader in the Campus movement.

To my fellow current/former Sdas: Have you heard of Jim Hohnberger and his "affair" (some say with someone he groomed)?

The name sounds vaguely familiar, but I am unaware of the case. It may be that it has happened/is happening in another state, and that's why. The only reason I know so much about the Pipims is because, even though I'm a former SDA, I still keep in touch with/have ties to the SDA community, and have been very involved with Campus.

As to what exactly about Campus concerns me, do you remember that post I did a long time back about the guy who made the comment about my asexuality, "you're not asexual, look at the size of those hips! You were made to bare children." ? That was made by a leader in the campus movement.

I can say that Pipim's sin, rape allegations aside, has caused a major upheaval in Campus ministries, and has personally made my life a lot worse, via church politics.

Duplessis3 is right, I should've remembered that.

As to the rape allegations, really, I just found out about them. Like, last month. I really didn't know about them before.

There are people around me who have more information than me. Actually, hehe, the only reason I have so much information is because I kicked up a HUGE fuss over certain things, which I can get into later but aren't really relevent, and was told it was because of Dr. Pipim's fall.

Since I'm surrounded by such people, I could probably get more information out of them about the case, if there's interest. It's not a guarantee, though. Some people are very open with me, some prefer to keep details private. So it's hit or miss on that.

That's all I can think of at the moment... let me know if you're curious about anything more. If needed I can go into Ellen White too... shoot, I think I've read more of her books than most Adventists, after I left the SDA church.

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bionicmlle

I think the Pipim issue is representative of a lot of the problems with conservative SDA congregations, and probably many conservative Christians in general. (Although, my primary experience is w SDA, so….) They are quick to ignore, gloss over or find apologetics for pretty much anything. Of course there are no charges - this girl lives in Africa! Pipim was a MISSIONARY! Bring him back into the fold. I *DO* think it is interesting that he was disfellowshipped - that is rare these days. My father was disfellowshipped in the late 50's for divorcing his first wife. I don't remember hearing of another disfellowship when I was growing up however people were certainly shunned socially.

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bionicmlle

If anyone is interested in a great book on Adventism/EGW, I'd recommend Prophetess of Health. SO interesting!

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Janes Heir
The Ann Arbor church is not a healthy church, anyway. It's a very spiteful and petty congregation, which is another reason I'm not sure if I believe Pipim raped anybody. Even before the rape allegations were known, they were very anti-Pipim. That's not saying that he couldn't have raped anyone, just that... I don't know.

I guess the impression I got was that Jay Gallimore, because of their similar theology, was quite active in smoothing things over and rushing the baptism. But I guess a supportive conference president doesn't equal a positive congregation.

I know some males (they were male friends of mine. Are male friends of mine) that stayed at the Pipim's house while they were homeless. This happened after the Dr. was disfellowshipped. If any females ever stayed there, it was while Dr. Pipim was out of town, at least after the disfellowshipping. His wife, Mrs. Pipim, would've been the one hosting. After that fiasco no female youth, as far as I'm aware, stayed at his house while Dr. P was there. Actually, one of my friends is still living there. His name I will not give.

Of course I don't expect you to give any names! This is at least one source that he took youth on a trip (without his wife or children) since his resignation (though perhaps this was before he was disfellowshipped?), and that the baptism was cancelled because of other allegations of assault. Even Gallimore eventually acknowledged apparently predatory behavior: http://spectrummagazine.org/node/4723

3. I'm not sure what you mean by "differentiate between rising from various forms of misconduct." could you please clarify?

Thanks for linking to your review. Since there were only two reviews, I assumed the longer was yours. It seemed quite positive, and I wouldn't want to limit grace, or condemn a message of growing through failure. However, what I was referring to in my question is this: Those familiar with the habits and power dynamics associated with predatory sexual behavior would likely recognize that a person who has a history of predatory behavior should never again be placed in a position of authority and easy access to victims. Did Dr Pipim acknowledge anything of the sort, or see all sins as equal? Did he acknowledge that despite the whole "a just man falls 7 times", some people (victims and perpetrators) or situations (a pastor betraying trust in such a way) can never be fully reconciled. I realize he has always denied the rape charge, but even supposing the only sin was adultery... why so much emphasis on the recovery of guilty parties, rather than attention to the hurt such extreme actions cause? (That was really rambly. Sorry. As I stated in my previous post, I felt his "True to Principle" book failed to differentiate between rape and adultery, so I'm wondering if a book about moral failings showed any growth in his ethic.)

4. I don't remember off the top of my head, but in the book I don't think he states that he didn't tell his wife. I think I would've picked up on that, because even at my fundiest, I would've not approved of his not going to his wife right away. I'm pretty sure he implied that he told his wife just before he made his announcement to the rest of the world. As far as we know (we=campus) MRs. Pipim found out at the same time as the Doctor.

Okay, I'm too lazy to find the source, but he definitely said he felt (from Ellen White) that "private sins" only needed to be confessed privately. I found that hideously morally obtuse.

As to what exactly about Campus concerns me, do you remember that post I did a long time back about the guy who made the comment about my asexuality, "you're not asexual, look at the size of those hips! You were made to bare children." ? That was made by a leader in the campus movement.

Could you link to the post, if it's not too much trouble? I haven't been around that long. I'm so sorry someone said that to you!

I can say that Pipim's sin, rape allegations aside, has caused a major upheaval in Campus ministries, and has personally made my life a lot worse, via church politics.

Again, I'm so sorry. I tend to think of them as quite associated with GYC. Lately my cousin who is quite involved with the Canadian GYC-type stuff was quoting Pipim to me, and I felt like screaming. But she probably didn't know about the rape allegations.

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Trynn

This is quite possible. As I said, for the first year after this happened, no one had a clue about the rape allegations. From what I understand, they only just came to light right before the rebaptism, and even then they weren't widely publicized. It took me another 6 months to find out about them. Gallimore himself might not have known about it until much later.

The A2 church is not known for being a supportive church. This is why I didn't believe them at first when they told me about the rape allegations, because it is a very judgemental and hypocritical church. Though in light of the allegations, I can't blame them for not wanting to cancel the rebaptism. The A2 church is not supporitve of the Pipims at all, to the point where we had to fight in order to have Mrs. Pipim be allowed to cook for us students. Mrs. Pipim is an excellent cook (I DREAM about her stew) so this had me pretty pissed off. I made a fuss, which is how I found out about it. She was finally allowed to cook for us, but the Dr was unwelcome.

Of course I don't expect you to give any names! This is at least one source that he took youth on a trip (without his wife or children) since his resignation (though perhaps this was before he was disfellowshipped?), and that the baptism was cancelled because of other allegations of assault. Even Gallimore eventually acknowledged apparently predatory behavior: http://spectrummagazine.org/node/4723

Interesting... I was not aware of this. It doesn't matter if he was disfellowshipped at that point (and I believe that happened within weeks of the resignation) if it was after his public confession, he still should not have done that. He may have thought it was ok to take a whole group of young adults because then no one could accuse him like they could if it was only one female? He may have thought males were ok? I do agree that that is odd and should not have happened.

3. I'm not sure what you mean by "differentiate between rising from various forms of misconduct." could you please clarify?

Thanks for linking to your review. Since there were only two reviews, I assumed the longer was yours. It seemed quite positive, and I wouldn't want to limit grace, or condemn a message of growing through failure. However, what I was referring to in my question is this: Those familiar with the habits and power dynamics associated with predatory sexual behavior would likely recognize that a person who has a history of predatory behavior should never again be placed in a position of authority and easy access to victims. Did Dr Pipim acknowledge anything of the sort, or see all sins as equal? Did he acknowledge that despite the whole "a just man falls 7 times", some people (victims and perpetrators) or situations (a pastor betraying trust in such a way) can never be fully reconciled. I realize he has always denied the rape charge, but even supposing the only sin was adultery... why so much emphasis on the recovery of guilty parties, rather than attention to the hurt such extreme actions cause? (That was really rambly. Sorry. As I stated in my previous post, I felt his "True to Principle" book failed to differentiate between rape and adultery, so I'm wondering if a book about moral failings showed any growth in his ethic.)

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Trynn
I think the Pipim issue is representative of a lot of the problems with conservative SDA congregations, and probably many conservative Christians in general. (Although, my primary experience is w SDA, so….) They are quick to ignore, gloss over or find apologetics for pretty much anything. Of course there are no charges - this girl lives in Africa! Pipim was a MISSIONARY! Bring him back into the fold. I *DO* think it is interesting that he was disfellowshipped - that is rare these days. My father was disfellowshipped in the late 50's for divorcing his first wife. I don't remember hearing of another disfellowship when I was growing up however people were certainly shunned socially.

This is definitely true. The only other instance of sexual abuse I am aware of was covered up, although the abuser in question did suffer legal consequences for it. I also had a friend in high school, whose father was a teacher who eventually went to go teach in korea. I later found out this was because he spanked a child in his school. Apparently we don't fire our abusive teachers, we send them to Korea :pull-hair:

Disfellowshipping is rare. I think it happened because Pipim was in a pretty high position. A teenager having a baby out of wedlock isn't always kicked out anymore, but for someone in such a high position they might have felt it necessary.

My aunt got kicked out of the church for getting pregnant out of wedlock. Can't remember for the life of me if the father was a member, and if that's why he wasn't kicked out, or what. This would've been in the... *thinks* 80s. So, I think that up until at least the mid 80s it was pretty common to get the boot for that sort of thing. (My grandma has told me of other women that got kicked out of the church for this same issue, and a pastor who wouldn't marry a certain couple because the male happened to be African American. That last one was also in the 80s.)

So I heard of disfellowshipping while I was growing up, but only in the past. As far as I know, it never actually happened to anyone around me. I'd agree with you that the shunning is very much a social thing. Even now it's happening to me... and if I *do* hang out with SDA friends, they eventually start preaching at me.

I always wondered how some SDAs were able to leave so easiy, yet it was hard for me.

Sorry for the rambling lol I'm a bit tired.

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bionicmlle

Trynn - -I have so much empathy for those who can't leave easily. It IS hard to leave because, growing up, it's all we know. We are sent to denominational schools and go to church with all the same peers and parents we see at school everyday. Social activities revolve around Pathfinders, band/orchestra and only SDA sports teams because of the Sabbath issue. Leaving means adopting a completely different social life with different norms and, really, a different language. When I saw the film Seventh-Gay Adventist, I felt so sad for those folks who desperately wanted to be part of the group, who couldn't comfortably be OUT of it but also weren't accepted IN it. I don't think SDA is a cult, but the "in the world, not OF it" mentality is really damaging.

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Talitha Cumi

This is definitely true. The only other instance of sexual abuse I am aware of was covered up, although the abuser in question did suffer legal consequences for it. I also had a friend in high school, whose father was a teacher who eventually went to go teach in korea. I later found out this was because he spanked a child in his school. Apparently we don't fire our abusive teachers, we send them to Korea :pull-hair:

When was this? Corporal punishment was always a possibility in my elementary school, but I don't know how often it occurred. I did witness one session (6th grade boy, belt over jeans) given by the principal, but afaik it wasn't seen as anything reprehensible. He didn't get sent to Korea. :shrug: That would have been in the early 80s.

Disfellowshipping is rare. I think it happened because Pipim was in a pretty high position. A teenager having a baby out of wedlock isn't always kicked out anymore, but for someone in such a high position they might have felt it necessary.

My aunt got kicked out of the church for getting pregnant out of wedlock. Can't remember for the life of me if the father was a member, and if that's why he wasn't kicked out, or what. This would've been in the... *thinks* 80s. So, I think that up until at least the mid 80s it was pretty common to get the boot for that sort of thing. (My grandma has told me of other women that got kicked out of the church for this same issue, and a pastor who wouldn't marry a certain couple because the male happened to be African American. That last one was also in the 80s.)

Central Florida must have been an incredibly liberal Adventist area, because a girl at my academy got pregnant her sophomore year (1988), went away, had the baby, and came back for senior year. She even brought the baby to school sometimes, just to visit.

Does anyone know where I can get the book about Ellen White's plagiarism? It was called "The White Lie" or "The White Deception" or something. I looked on Amazon but had no luck.

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Trynn

This is definitely true. The only other instance of sexual abuse I am aware of was covered up, although the abuser in question did suffer legal consequences for it. I also had a friend in high school, whose father was a teacher who eventually went to go teach in korea. I later found out this was because he spanked a child in his school. Apparently we don't fire our abusive teachers, we send them to Korea :pull-hair:

When was this? Corporal punishment was always a possibility in my elementary school, but I don't know how often it occurred. I did witness one session (6th grade boy, belt over jeans) given by the principal, but afaik it wasn't seen as anything reprehensible. He didn't get sent to Korea. :shrug: That would have been in the early 80s.

This would've been in the early to mid 00s. Attitudes about corporal punishment in schools had drastically changed by then, even on Planet Adventist. I know certain religious schools still spank, but Seventh Day Adventists haven't used corporal punishment in schools for quite some time now. I couldn't say for sure exactly when it stopped, but it was sometime between when my dad grew up (60s/70s) and when I was growing up (90s/00s)

Disfellowshipping is rare. I think it happened because Pipim was in a pretty high position. A teenager having a baby out of wedlock isn't always kicked out anymore, but for someone in such a high position they might have felt it necessary.

My aunt got kicked out of the church for getting pregnant out of wedlock. Can't remember for the life of me if the father was a member, and if that's why he wasn't kicked out, or what. This would've been in the... *thinks* 80s. So, I think that up until at least the mid 80s it was pretty common to get the boot for that sort of thing. (My grandma has told me of other women that got kicked out of the church for this same issue, and a pastor who wouldn't marry a certain couple because the male happened to be African American. That last one was also in the 80s.)

Central Florida must have been an incredibly liberal Adventist area, because a girl at my academy got pregnant her sophomore year (1988), went away, had the baby, and came back for senior year. She even brought the baby to school sometimes, just to visit.

Does anyone know where I can get the book about Ellen White's plagiarism? It was called "The White Lie" or "The White Deception" or something. I looked on Amazon but had no luck.

Well, from what I understand, the Michigan Conference of Seventh Day Adventists is the most conservative conference in the country. A general rule is that the further west you go, the more liberal it gets. Or, so I'm told. I do know Michigan Adventism is very conservative.

So it might be that other states/conferences are very normal, while Michigan was the odd one.

I've read so many books on EGW... I think "White Lie" may actually be pro EGW? I feel like my parents might have a copy of it knocking around somewhere. I can't imagine them having it if it wasn't pro EGW.

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Trynn
Trynn - -I have so much empathy for those who can't leave easily. It IS hard to leave because, growing up, it's all we know. We are sent to denominational schools and go to church with all the same peers and parents we see at school everyday. Social activities revolve around Pathfinders, band/orchestra and only SDA sports teams because of the Sabbath issue. Leaving means adopting a completely different social life with different norms and, really, a different language. When I saw the film Seventh-Gay Adventist, I felt so sad for those folks who desperately wanted to be part of the group, who couldn't comfortably be OUT of it but also weren't accepted IN it. I don't think SDA is a cult, but the "in the world, not OF it" mentality is really damaging.

I pretty much agree with everything you said. I haven't identified as an Adventist since I was 15, and even now, ten years later, it's been very difficult to separate myself from the community. Actually, I doubt I'll ever completely be able to do that simply because I have to many connections.

It's very hard to find anyone who understands that, however. Most people seem to just leave and not have a probem.

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Talitha Cumi

This would've been in the early to mid 00s. Attitudes about corporal punishment in schools had drastically changed by then, even on Planet Adventist. I know certain religious schools still spank, but Seventh Day Adventists haven't used corporal punishment in schools for quite some time now. I couldn't say for sure exactly when it stopped, but it was sometime between when my dad grew up (60s/70s) and when I was growing up (90s/00s)

GOOD. That was a traumatizing thing to witness. I'm rabidly against hitting children due in part to that experience.

Disfellowshipping is rare. I think it happened because Pipim was in a pretty high position. A teenager having a baby out of wedlock isn't always kicked out anymore, but for someone in such a high position they might have felt it necessary.

My aunt got kicked out of the church for getting pregnant out of wedlock. Can't remember for the life of me if the father was a member, and if that's why he wasn't kicked out, or what. This would've been in the... *thinks* 80s. So, I think that up until at least the mid 80s it was pretty common to get the boot for that sort of thing. (My grandma has told me of other women that got kicked out of the church for this same issue, and a pastor who wouldn't marry a certain couple because the male happened to be African American. That last one was also in the 80s.)

Well, from what I understand, the Michigan Conference of Seventh Day Adventists is the most conservative conference in the country. A general rule is that the further west you go, the more liberal it gets. Or, so I'm told. I do know Michigan Adventism is very conservative.

So it might be that other states/conferences are very normal, while Michigan was the odd one.

I considered going to Andrews for college, but I could feel the repression in the air when I visited. :) Ended up at AUC instead.

I can't disengage from Adventism entirely, because my parents are still heavily involved in the church, and both my sisters and their families are Adventist. Mr. Cumi and I show up at church from time to time when my mom asks us to (baby dedication, Dad's doing special music, etc.). I have to restrain myself from trying to debate during the sermon, but otherwise I'm okay.

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Trynn

I don't know how to not mess up the quotes, so I've just omitted them.

I'm sorry you had to witness that. My dad, when he was growing up, said they used to spank you and then parade you around to other classrooms to further humiliate you. I wish I knew when it stopped completely... my guess is that it was a school by school thing, kinda like some public schools were quicker to ban spanking than others. Was definitely gone by the early 90s, though, when I started school. And I went to a lot of them growing up, and have heard spanking in the classroom spoken out against by adults since. Unforunately these same adults spank their own children, but it's at least a step in the right direciton.

Disfellowshipping is rare. I think it happened because Pipim was in a pretty high position. A teenager having a baby out of wedlock isn't always kicked out anymore, but for someone in such a high position they might have felt it necessary.

My aunt got kicked out of the church for getting pregnant out of wedlock. Can't remember for the life of me if the father was a member, and if that's why he wasn't kicked out, or what. This would've been in the... *thinks* 80s. So, I think that up until at least the mid 80s it was pretty common to get the boot for that sort of thing. (My grandma has told me of other women that got kicked out of the church for this same issue, and a pastor who wouldn't marry a certain couple because the male happened to be African American. That last one was also in the 80s.)

Well, from what I understand, the Michigan Conference of Seventh Day Adventists is the most conservative conference in the country. A general rule is that the further west you go, the more liberal it gets. Or, so I'm told. I do know Michigan Adventism is very conservative.

So it might be that other states/conferences are very normal, while Michigan was the odd one.

I considered going to Andrews for college, but I could feel the repression in the air when I visited. :) Ended up at AUC instead.

I visited Andrews on multiple occasions... ended up staying with friends there a lot when I was homeless, which made the deans EXTREMELY unahppy... truly, the students at andrews are babied. they won't know how to handle themselves in the real world because they were never allowed. I'll never forget that, to get help, I had to go outside Adventism.

I can't disengage from Adventism entirely, because my parents are still heavily involved in the church, and both my sisters and their families are Adventist. Mr. Cumi and I show up at church from time to time when my mom asks us to (baby dedication, Dad's doing special music, etc.). I have to restrain myself from trying to debate during the sermon, but otherwise I'm okay.

My parents, my Other Mother (person who is like a mother to me but not biologically), most of my close friends... I can't disengage from Adventism either. I wish I could.

for the longest time, I thought I was the only one, and especially the only one on this board. I wish there were some sort of support group for former Adventists. When I was searching for one, I never found any. I almost feel like we should make one.

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bionicmlle
I don't know how to not mess up the quotes, so I've just omitted them.

I'm sorry you had to witness that. My dad, when he was growing up, said they used to spank you and then parade you around to other classrooms to further humiliate you. I wish I knew when it stopped completely... my guess is that it was a school by school thing, kinda like some public schools were quicker to ban spanking than others. Was definitely gone by the early 90s, though, when I started school. And I went to a lot of them growing up, and have heard spanking in the classroom spoken out against by adults since. Unforunately these same adults spank their own children, but it's at least a step in the right direciton.

I visited Andrews on multiple occasions... ended up staying with friends there a lot when I was homeless, which made the deans EXTREMELY unahppy... truly, the students at andrews are babied. they won't know how to handle themselves in the real world because they were never allowed. I'll never forget that, to get help, I had to go outside Adventism.

My parents, my Other Mother (person who is like a mother to me but not biologically), most of my close friends... I can't disengage from Adventism either. I wish I could.

for the longest time, I thought I was the only one, and especially the only one on this board. I wish there were some sort of support group for former Adventists. When I was searching for one, I never found any. I almost feel like we should make one.

Have u tried. /recoveringadventists.tribe.net/. That's actually where I saw the I :multi-heart: Haystacks shirt.... :whistle:

Edited to change to right link

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bionicmlle

I will say one thing I can't give up is Worthington products. Just bought a whole case of frozen Dinner Roast at my local ABC.... Yummy!! (dH still vegetarian)

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Trynn

Mmmmm Worthington products... unfortunately the only way I know of to get them is through the A2 church, and I refuse to let them have a penny of my money.

ETA I checked the site you linked to. The last posts appear to be from 2007.

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coexist

The White Lie isn't pro-EGW. I think I first learned of it on ellenwhiteexposed.com, or another site I found when I first "officially" left the church. (I had stopped going/stopped believing for a specific reason already, but was too afraid to stop considering myself an Adventist until I dug deeper into the history.)

Someone mentioned shunning earlier and that's sort of my experience also, with only a few exceptions. The ones that do make contact from time to time all eventually start trying to "bring me back to the fold." Most of them just can't believe a PK would choose to stay backslidden so long.

I only know one ex-sda personally-- my former best friend's older brother. It's been nice to have him in my corner as I try to find my way...

I definitely thought I'd be the only former SDA here. Glad to see that's not the case!

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treemom

So I found this really interesting although I didn't follow a lot of it. Even with doing some supplementary wiki reading. Anyway to get an SDA primer?

Also, when googling the worthington foods I discovered the Morningstar farms link which I find interesting. And then the purchase by Kellogg which of course has the SDA links. Insight? Commentary?

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Joan of Snarc

Are all Adventists vegan? I live pretty close to Oakwood and we have a lot of Adventists in my neighborhood. They have brought really interesting treats/cookies to the annual cookie exchange. They are all really nice, however, after about three years in a row when they wrote down our names and addresses and then we promptly got door-knockers we had to "disfellowship" them from the cookie exchange. I miss the healthful treats, but we can't be having that shit. Even the southern baptists (which would be everybody else in the neighborhood except me) objected to their door-knocking! That made me laugh.

Also, are SDA congregations somewhat segregated? Because I've never met a white Adventist down here. Not that it matters, just curious.

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debrand

I am trying to follow the story from the posts on this thread; however, I keep coming back to this question. What the hell!? My apologies for not being able to get past this one question. What was considered the correct answer for this particular question? Do some people not realize that the mother in the question is a rape victim?

drpipim.org/seminar-handouts-contemporaryissues-101/133-faithful-unto-death-seminar-handouts.html

If you think that the hand out would be better discussed in a different thread tell me because some of the questions amaze me. I don't want to distract from this thread.

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SamuraiKatz
So I found this really interesting although I didn't follow a lot of it. Even with doing some supplementary wiki reading. Anyway to get an SDA primer?

Also, when googling the worthington foods I discovered the Morningstar farms link which I find interesting. And then the purchase by Kellogg which of course has the SDA links. Insight? Commentary?

The Kellogg brothers were SDA. John Harvey Kellogg is a good place to start. I was an adult convert to the SDA. They present themselves as pretty mainstream until they get you baptised. Then they really start pushing the Ellen G. White stuff.

Self supporting SDA ministries:

Amazingfacts.org

Itiswritten.org

Weimar.org

Ucheepines.org

Vop.org (voice of prophecy)

Amazingdiscoveries.org (conservative and not related to amazing facts)

Adventtalk.com (message board created to discuss the 3 Angels Broadcasting Network/Danny Shelton scandal)

The 3abn Danny Shelton mess started in the 1990' s and that was my impetus to leave the church.

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