Is Gothard Gay?

[JenniferJuniper]

Gay. Asexual. Aromantic.

It's probably one of the above.

[August]

I think it takes a special kind of person to never be in a public relationship for 79 years... there are only 3 options:

A) Gay

B) Asexual

C) Creep who doesn't like adults

I choose C. I read on the Recovering Grace site that he wanted to marry a couple of times, but the board said no, because the age difference was too great.

[dora]

Gay. Asexual. Aromantic.

It's probably one of the above.

I read this as 'aromatic' and wondered 'how would we know how he smells?'

[Vex]

I really hate threads that discuss the sexuality of various fundies. I don't mean any offense to the OP, but your husband can't say he's 'absolutely gay' just because he met him. As a gay person, I find the concept of people (including gay people) judging the sexuality of others based on absolutely nothing other than their per-conceived notions of gay stereotypes or even worse, a 'feeling' (otherwise known a gaydar), so insulting and degrading.

Nobody can 'tell' that another person is gay. You might deduce they're gay because they have some mannerisms/habits that are strongly associated with gay subculture and be correct, but that is not the same thing as 'knowing' another person is gay.

I can't adequately describe what it feels like to hear people talking blithely about gaydar, or how they can just 'tell' another person is gay. Some gay people know they're gay and have no issues with that, but so many have to struggle with their sexuality and come to the gradual and painful realisation that they're gay. They are the only ones who KNOW they are gay unless they share that with other people.

Most people who talk about this sort of thing would never look at a white person and say 'Oh, they have black/asian/hispanic ancestry. I can tell, I can always tell a person's ethnicity just by looking at them/talking to them'. Why would they not say it? Because it's insensitive and rude and frankly, it's none of their business. A person's sexuality is deeply personal and private, unless they choose to share it and put it on the table for discussion.

I don't speak for gay people in general, of course, but I just want explain how the kind of thing the OP's husband is saying makes me feel as a gay person. I think a lot of people talk like that without meaning any offense whatsoever, not realising how it sounds or how it might effect some gay people. I'm sure there are plenty of gay folks who have no issue with it and would say I'm being overly sensitive, and that's fine, but I also know people who feel the same way I do. I don't want the OP or anyone else here to feel like I'm attacking them, I just want to give my perspective. I really haven't had an issue with anything else said here.

Quite aside from that, Gothard is well known for his fondness for young (teenage) girls. It's gotten him into trouble before. I don't think that he's gay but I do think he's a sleaze. I don't think that gaydar combined with not being married is enough to warrant deciding a man is gay.

[smittykins]

How can someone unmarried and without children tell people to marry and have children. The hypocrisy is high on this one.

You could also say the same about Catholic priests(although I realize that some widowers have entered the priesthood).

[longskirtlotsakids]

10 is a mid teen in males? No. Pedo.

[nelliebelle1197]

I've always believed Jerry Sandusky is a pedophile who happens to be gay. No reports of him going after females.

No, Jerry Sandusky is NOT gay- at least there is no evidence he is gay. He is a sick man who molests kids. That has nothing to do with being gay.

[gustava]

Strictly speaking pedophiles target children, those who've not entered puberty. There's another term, that I can't remember, used for those who target teenagers. The media tends to use pedophile to refer to anyone who's attracted to those 18 and under but they are using it incorrectly.

You are correct. I do use the term broadly.

[Artemis]

Vex, I can see how you feel that, and it makes me think that I should be more careful. I don't go around loudly proclaiming my gaydar, I have to say, mostly because I really don't go around socially that much anyway, since I am quite reclusive.

But I suppose I do look at/listen to people I meet, and make a call on what I think their orientation might be. I never really thought of it as being on a par with racism, really. Maybe that's something I need to examine.

In my case, I assess males for orientation as a security issue. I just feel safer with gay men than straight.

[RosyDaisy]

I really hate threads that discuss the sexuality of various fundies. I don't mean any offense to the OP, but your husband can't say he's 'absolutely gay' just because he met him. As a gay person, I find the concept of people (including gay people) judging the sexuality of others based on absolutely nothing other than their per-conceived notions of gay stereotypes or even worse, a 'feeling' (otherwise known a gaydar), so insulting and degrading.

Nobody can 'tell' that another person is gay. You might deduce they're gay because they have some mannerisms/habits that are strongly associated with gay subculture and be correct, but that is not the same thing as 'knowing' another person is gay.

I can't adequately describe what it feels like to hear people talking blithely about gaydar, or how they can just 'tell' another person is gay. Some gay people know they're gay and have no issues with that, but so many have to struggle with their sexuality and come to the gradual and painful realisation that they're gay. They are the only ones who KNOW they are gay unless they share that with other people.

Most people who talk about this sort of thing would never look at a white person and say 'Oh, they have black/asian/hispanic ancestry. I can tell, I can always tell a person's ethnicity just by looking at them/talking to them'. Why would they not say it? Because it's insensitive and rude and frankly, it's none of their business. A person's sexuality is deeply personal and private, unless they choose to share it and put it on the table for discussion.

I don't speak for gay people in general, of course, but I just want explain how the kind of thing the OP's husband is saying makes me feel as a gay person. I think a lot of people talk like that without meaning any offense whatsoever, not realising how it sounds or how it might effect some gay people. I'm sure there are plenty of gay folks who have no issue with it and would say I'm being overly sensitive, and that's fine, but I also know people who feel the same way I do. I don't want the OP or anyone else here to feel like I'm attacking them, I just want to give my perspective. I really haven't had an issue with anything else said here.

Quite aside from that, Gothard is well known for his fondness for young (teenage) girls. It's gotten him into trouble before. I don't think that he's gay but I do think he's a sleaze. I don't think that gaydar combined with not being married is enough to warrant deciding a man is gay.

This! My SO's sister is gay, and she comes across as very feminine. I would not have known or suspected if she hadn't told me. Her partner also comes across as very feminine as well.

[treemom]

I think it is acceptable to discuss that some of these folks could be gay and by being gay in such a repressive environment they have developed negative personality traits etc.

I am not gay and therefore am unable to speak about what it feels like as a gay person to read this but I know it isn't a universal feeling either. We do have other gay members, some of whom often using the phrases ping and gaydar.

And you would be surprised what asshattish comments people make about race. My nephew's mother is Mexican and my nephew is the spitting image of my son who looks like me and I look like I am the very stereotype of an Irish female. People say shit all the time to my brother and sister in law about it.

[treemom]

And I am not really a perpetrator of this so I am not defending my actions. I try not to speculate on sexuality because I don't think I am good at it to be honest. And I think sexuality for me is a bit fluid so it feels weird for me to try to box other people in.

I think he is a sleaze, regardless of his identity or sexuality.

[HOTW]

I get the feeling Gothard had a very squicky Mom who was a control freak

[SPHASH]

No, Jerry Sandusky is NOT gay- at least there is no evidence he is gay. He is a sick man who molests kids. That has nothing to do with being gay.

There were former players and assistants who said he liked to swat them on their butts and hug them. Even one of his victims said as an adult Jerry liked to rub his shoulders.

[bal maiden]

I really hate threads that discuss the sexuality of various fundies. I don't mean any offense to the OP, but your husband can't say he's 'absolutely gay' just because he met him. As a gay person, I find the concept of people (including gay people) judging the sexuality of others based on absolutely nothing other than their per-conceived notions of gay stereotypes or even worse, a 'feeling' (otherwise known a gaydar), so insulting and degrading.

Nobody can 'tell' that another person is gay. You might deduce they're gay because they have some mannerisms/habits that are strongly associated with gay subculture and be correct, but that is not the same thing as 'knowing' another person is gay.

I can't adequately describe what it feels like to hear people talking blithely about gaydar, or how they can just 'tell' another person is gay. Some gay people know they're gay and have no issues with that, but so many have to struggle with their sexuality and come to the gradual and painful realisation that they're gay. They are the only ones who KNOW they are gay unless they share that with other people.

Most people who talk about this sort of thing would never look at a white person and say 'Oh, they have black/asian/hispanic ancestry. I can tell, I can always tell a person's ethnicity just by looking at them/talking to them'. Why would they not say it? Because it's insensitive and rude and frankly, it's none of their business. A person's sexuality is deeply personal and private, unless they choose to share it and put it on the table for discussion.

I don't speak for gay people in general, of course, but I just want explain how the kind of thing the OP's husband is saying makes me feel as a gay person. I think a lot of people talk like that without meaning any offense whatsoever, not realising how it sounds or how it might effect some gay people. I'm sure there are plenty of gay folks who have no issue with it and would say I'm being overly sensitive, and that's fine, but I also know people who feel the same way I do. I don't want the OP or anyone else here to feel like I'm attacking them, I just want to give my perspective. I really haven't had an issue with anything else said here.

Quite aside from that, Gothard is well known for his fondness for young (teenage) girls. It's gotten him into trouble before. I don't think that he's gay but I do think he's a sleaze. I don't think that gaydar combined with not being married is enough to warrant deciding a man is gay.

Thank you for taking the time to write this post. It's not your job as a gay person to educate me - or anyone else - on my straight privilege (which is what I think casual talk of 'gaydars' and speculation on sexuality etc is a manifestation of) but I try to not be a jerk and try to be an ally to my gay friends. Your post has made me reflect on some times that I may have been a jerk, and has made me check my privilege. Thanks.

[Vex]

I'm not saying all discussions about a person's sexuality should be off the table. I think discussing being bi or gay in the repressive and aggressively hetero-normative fundie world is a good thing. My (personal) objection is to speculating on the sexuality of specific individuals. If a male fundie has been seen holding hands with a guy, imo that could justify speculation that that person might be gay, but to me a feeling, or statistics (statistically one of the duggars HAVE to be gay!) are not a good enough reason to dissect something so deeply personal and private.

I know there are plenty of gay people who talk about gaydar and that's their prerogative. But it's slightly different for a gay person to use that language than it is to hear it from a straight person. I don't like it no matter who says it personally, but those are MY feelings on the matter and I don't pretend to speak for anyone else.

Rosy, I am also a very feminine looking lesbian and everyone is always really surprised when they find out I'm gay. It's amazing how many people are uncomfortable with gay people who don't 'look' and 'act' gay.

[treemom]

I'm not saying all discussions about a person's sexuality should be off the table. I think discussing being bi or gay in the repressive and aggressively hetero-normative fundie world is a good thing. My (personal) objection is to speculating on the sexuality of specific individuals. If a male fundie has been seen holding hands with a guy, imo that could justify speculation that that person might be gay, but to me a feeling, or statistics (statistically one of the duggars HAVE to be gay!) are not a good enough reason to dissect something so deeply personal and private.

I know there are plenty of gay people who talk about gaydar and that's their prerogative. But it's slightly different for a gay person to use that language than it is to hear it from a straight person. I don't like it no matter who says it personally, but those are MY feelings on the matter and I don't pretend to speak for anyone else.

Rosy, I am also a very feminine looking lesbian and everyone is always really surprised when they find out I'm gay. It's amazing how many people are uncomfortable with gay people who don't 'look' and 'act' gay.

Fair enough.

I don't disagree exactly either. Again I have personally never used pinging or gaydar that I can think of. In general, it is not any of my business what gender anyone is attracted to so I try to be respectful. I only wanted to say some discussions are reasonable to have given some of what we discuss.

[Closed Womb]

It may be worth pointing out that the OP didn't indicate that her husband or his friends knew Gothard is gay because of gaydar or mannerisms. They may have witnessed something pretty unmistakable or her husband may have been the object of some advances.

That said, it'd be difficult to have most members weigh in on this issue, since we only have conjecture.

While I have little patience for conjecture about most people's sexual orientation, when it comes to high profile fundies I do tend to think of it of more a conversation about hypocrisy than anything else.

[Clementine]

I get the feeling Gothard had a very squicky Mom who was a control freak

Yes, I get a Norman Bates vibe from him. As in strange relations with his mother, not the shower / knife part.

[NurseNell]

10 is a mid teen in males? No. Pedo.

I didn't follow the case, I thought Sandusky's victims were older. According to google, yes, his victims were both children and teenagers. So I guess he's both a pedophile and ephebophile. Basically, he's a disgusting human being.

[Peas n carrots]

I think as someone above mentioned the sexuality question is relevant in light of the hypocrisy of denouncing gay folks, while one may possibly be gay.

However, I will say in this culture being gay is so stigmatized that any feelings for the same sex are likely so far back in the closet they reside in Narnia. Can you truly call someone "gay" if they do not recognize it in themselves?

I'm totally guilty of calling Pecan Thief "fabulous" on multiple occasions. Vex brought up a point of view that I unfortunately, hadn't considered before.

[FloraKitty35]

The thou dost protest too much syndrome that fundies display doesn't impress me, it makes me question them? Is the person doing the complaining in the closet themselves or their so afraid that if they tried it they might like it and feel that that is who they wish they had the courage to be. Also, if anyone from FRC in DC is reading this board, please send your Executive Action Director undercover to one of these dens of debauchery so he can save souls or just because most of you hate his smug guts and were thinking about this as an April Fools prank.

[treemom]

Vex,

Thank you for being so honest and open. I have continued to consider what you said since then and believe I was wrong in some of my feelings about whether it was appropriate or not in certain circumstances. It isn't your job to educate me and point out straight privilege, but thank you anyhow.

[treemom]

I am sorry that it was interpreted as condescending, what I was trying to say is these things should not have to be said. And I feel like an asshole for not getting it without someone telling me. However I appreciate it that you did so anyhow.

A birdie alerted me that someone else called it condescending and while I don't care about that, I don't want it to be condescending to the person it was addressed to. I am sorry if it was.