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My close encounter with religious people in Poland


Effie

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I used to be one of the kids who went from house to house, put a C+M+B over the door, sing a couple of songs, eat a cookie or two, collect money for the poor, and move on to the next house. I was 6 the first time I joined the "Star Singers" (as they're called in Germany because the three wise men followed the star and all that), I was part of the group for years and loved it. Getting to dress up, sing songs, get candy, AND collect money for poor children? SCORE! It's children doing something for other children, which I think is extremely important.

Baby hatches... There's a big discussion about them in Germany because every person has the right to know their ancestry. I still think they're a good thing. There were two cases in Berlin alone this year where women were so overwhelmed after giving birth that one of the babies ended up in a clothes donation container, another in a FREEZER and then in a park under a tree. I would rather have seen those babies in baby hatches, alive. Abortion is legal in Germany, there are social services and giving a baby up for adoption is made easy for women, but sometimes, the baby hatch is the only alternative some women see.

And finally, grave decorations. When my mother died, I asked people to donate money to the breast cancer ward of the hospital where she died instead of giving flowers. The funeral was in January, there was a foot of snow, it was freezing, the flowers didn't last long, anyway. Still, there were a lot more flowers than just what my dad and I put on the grave. Some people feel the need to bring flowers, candles, whatever, to express their grief. Who are you to judge how another person grieves? Just because you don't think it's necessary, it doesn't mean another person feels the same way. Same with those evil materialistic holidays. Don't like how Christmas is just about presents now? Don't give or accept presents. Quite simple. But don't expect others to live by your standards, that makes you just as bad as the fundies we discuss here.

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I just really can't go along with the entire "protect the mother at all costs" view in adoption. This kind of belief is what lead to laws today that treat adoptees as "forever children" and deny us of our own histories. Adoption is a difficult decision and sometimes the histories are ugly. But that doesn't mean a subset of people should be kept in the dark to protect someone else's feelings.

Adoptee +1ing, and I have not found my biological relatives, nor do I plan on seeking them out.

At the very least, I hope there are records being kept at these baby hatches so that when some of the women change their minds (because I think people who abandon their babies like that are often under extreme duress and may feel a total lack of alternatives NOT 'oh, yay, this is one of my many choices!' and there are always people who will feel the need/desire to provide more information once they get out of that situation), that there is some chance for those women to offer ID info or family information later that can be matched up. The problem is, it sounds like the baby hatches are more there for those who feel it's the only way for them to do this by avoiding criminal prosecution, so the mother may feel like she will be prosecuted or barred from giving that information in the future.

As an adoptee, I am not guaranteed that a biological relative will not find me and show up on my doorstep. I understand that is part of my life that I have no control over, because of the circumstances of my birth. I do not see why other people think they can or should be shielded from that, especially those who at least got to partially make the decision about what they did in the meantime (unlike adoptees, we have absolutely no choice in that matter, but still must by necessity deal with the realities of the situation).

But I'm sorry. In adoption, there is MORE than just the adoptive parents and the birth parents. If you don't want there to be a real person involved later who will have their own thoughts/feelings/desires that may or may not correspond with yours, then perhaps giving birth is not the wisest option for you. Or, if abandoning your child anonymously is your only way out, that is tragic, and certainly hopefully the adult adoptee will take that into consideration; but you don't get to decide or mandate how they will feel about it or whether they will attempt to search you out. Perhaps this should also be made clear at the baby hatches, so that nobody gets the wrong impression of guaranteed anonymity. Because that's just not going to happen. Nor, IMO, should it.

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Effie, I am done here. Fun as it is to argue with people on the internet and tell them they're being stupid (that probably makes me a jerk, doesn't it), I can realize the futility of what I was doing here; you do a much too nice job cherry picking the replies and answers you got whilst blithely ignoring whatever didn't fit.

Anyway, Effie at least got to see that posting a bunch of borderline xenophobic, bigoted crap with a thin veneer of "hey, look at my 'remarkable' fundie observations" doesn't win you any favours, although it did get her some lovely, thoughful posts. My thanks to all the adoptees who chimed in. It is a pretty close topic to me and my family and I really enjoyed reading the personal experiences.

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What about working to de-stigmatize adoption instead? Because I think the main problem lies there. You haven’t specified the reasons why those women prefer to give away their babies anonymously. As I see it: women are first expected to give birth in secret (at home) and then hand the children away in a baby box - also in secret to avoid being stigmatized. It's all about hiding the fact that some women can't take care of their own children. Why all this anonymity? Is it something to hide away? Something to be ashamed of? I don't think the baby boxes tackle the stigma surrounding adoption.

Safe haven laws do not replace other social services or existing adoption laws. They exist IN ADDITION to them.

Have you read any of the past threads here on rape? On reasons that some posters chose not to report their rapes, or of how the process of going to the police was traumatic? Can you understand that a birth mother might have been really young, might have been raped, might have even been raped by a family member and shunned by the rest of the family, and that going through the process of formally surrendering the child and attending court and having to identify a father and knowing that records could possibly be accessible in the future would simply be too much for her to handle? Or can you understand that some guys start being physically abusive during pregnancy? Unfortunately, I've had plenty of women tell me that the guy demanded that they abort and hit them while pregnant. Can you imagine a woman in that situation running away, and giving up a baby in a way that her abuser could never track her or the baby down? Or can you imagine a woman with a substance abuse problem, working as a prostitute and having no idea who the father is, not wanting to have a lot of involvement with authorities? Life is messy, and not all adoptees are going to realize their dream of meeting both biological parents and getting all this wonderful family information and making wonderful connections with family. I support open adoption and it's a great option for some, but it may not work for everyone. If you are trying to prevent infanticide, then one price to be paid is that those children, who may only be alive because of the law, may lack information.

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we do the chalk C M B over the door in southern Germany too. It's a catholic thing. It means both Caspar, Melchior, Balthasar (the names of the three wise men) and Christus Mansionem Benedicat (Christ blesses this house). It gets put on anew every 6th of January (three Kings' day)

My very Polish in-laws do this on a door frame inside the house here in the U.S. My father-in-law's mother was born in Poland and he did not speak English until he went to school. It is a tradition. It does not, as Effie claimed in her derisive analysis, provide protection. It is, as you allude, intended as a blessing on the household and a reminder of faith--much like a Jewish mezuzah scroll.

I would also add that most cemeteries are elaborately decorated here in the U.S. for Memorial Day which is actually a very secular holiday. Would Effie object to that as well?

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Adoptee +1ing, and I have not found my biological relatives, nor do I plan on seeking them out.

At the very least, I hope there are records being kept at these baby hatches so that when some of the women change their minds (because I think people who abandon their babies like that are often under extreme duress and may feel a total lack of alternatives NOT 'oh, yay, this is one of my many choices!' and there are always people who will feel the need/desire to provide more information once they get out of that situation), that there is some chance for those women to offer ID info or family information later that can be matched up. The problem is, it sounds like the baby hatches are more there for those who feel it's the only way for them to do this by avoiding criminal prosecution, so the mother may feel like she will be prosecuted or barred from giving that information in the future.

As an adoptee, I am not guaranteed that a biological relative will not find me and show up on my doorstep. I understand that is part of my life that I have no control over, because of the circumstances of my birth. I do not see why other people think they can or should be shielded from that, especially those who at least got to partially make the decision about what they did in the meantime (unlike adoptees, we have absolutely no choice in that matter, but still must by necessity deal with the realities of the situation).

But I'm sorry. In adoption, there is MORE than just the adoptive parents and the birth parents. If you don't want there to be a real person involved later who will have their own thoughts/feelings/desires that may or may not correspond with yours, then perhaps giving birth is not the wisest option for you. Or, if abandoning your child anonymously is your only way out, that is tragic, and certainly hopefully the adult adoptee will take that into consideration; but you don't get to decide or mandate how they will feel about it or whether they will attempt to search you out. Perhaps this should also be made clear at the baby hatches, so that nobody gets the wrong impression of guaranteed anonymity. Because that's just not going to happen. Nor, IMO, should it.

I get what you are saying about how nobody can give anyone a 100% guarantee of anonymity.

At the same time, if we are talking about Safe Haven laws specifically and not adoption laws in general (where the trend is toward more open arrangements and disclosure), you acknowledge in the first bold section that these situations often involve women in situations of duress, but then in the other bolded parts you talk about at least partially making the decision and about whether giving birth is the wisest option.

If someone is using a Safe Haven Law, I can't make any assumptions at all that anything about their situation, including carrying a pregnancy to term, was ever a matter of choice.

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Peasandcarrots, please don't think I am saying 'protect the mother's rights at all costs', because I am not.. I think there should always be the option to stay anonymous for everyone involved when it comes to adoption (as opposed to baby hatches). It's no better for a child who suddenly has a bio parent show up out of nowhere than it is for a bio parent.

I sympathise with your situation, because mine is similar in many ways. I have no paternal medical history. I could be a carrier of genetic defects or diseases and not know it. I could be high risk for certain illnesses and have no idea. It's extremely difficult to be in the dark. More than anything, I was responding to Effie's point of view and why I find it offensive and thoughtless. My feelings on adoption are far more complex than I could ever succinctly express in an online post.

Effie, if you had read my second post I gave a list of reasons as to why women would want to give their children up anonymously and/or not wish to be contacted later in life. Some things - like medical history - supersede the desire for anonymity imo but it's more complex than that. Baby hatches are NOT like adoption. They are something that is only done out of utter desperation to give women an alternative to infanticide. You can't compare the situation of the women who give babies up for adoption to that of the women who leave their children in safe houses.

ETA: I don't think your friend is selfish for wanting to feeling that she's missing part of her identity, or for wanting to know her biological parents. My issue is with adoptees who just show up in their biological parents' lives by knocking on the door - which is to me what your description made it sound like she was planning to do. I think that it's unfair to not give the party being tracked down (be they the child or the parents) a choice to avoid the encounter. Just because one party feels they are emotionally prepared for the encounter doesn't mean the other party is.

That is just MY opinion. I have no issue with people feeling that they need to know their bio parents/children. I have no issue with people tracking down their bio parents/children down as long as the person being tracked down is given a choice in the encounter. I would personally freak out if K had just showed up on my doorstep out of the blue. It's one thing to write a letter or call ahead or contact someone through a private investigator or adoption agency. It's quite another to show up in person and confront them.

I don't claim to speak for adoptees. I can only explain my point of view and explain why I feel that way. Obviously I don't have any objection to adoptees contacting their biological parents because I did just that. All I object to is forcing a reunion on someone who has no consented to it. That goes for children AND parents.

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Sorry to double post (can't edit any more), but I just wanted to add this:

I guess the reason I feel the way I do is because there is a very strong likelihood I was conceived by rape. I would never want to make a woman who had to go through rape, or abuse, or incest, or any situation like that to be forced to be confronted by that unless she were ready to deal with it. I see the choice to give a child up for adoption as a pretty selfless (especially in the context of rape and abuse), and I can't bring myself to judge a woman who went through that for not wanting to have to meet the child and relive the experience.

At one stage when I was talking to K I think she thought that I was going to ask about my biological father and the look of fear and alarm on her face is something I will never forget. I think that creates a very strong bias in my opinions and I probably overly empathise with the plight of biological mothers. I don't mean to come across as judgmental towards people who think children have an absolute right to information about their biological parents.

Of course, this doesn't have anything to do with the baby hatches, it's a completely different thing.

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Also a very close subject for me, as I became pregnant from a gang rape at 15, had the child and surrendered him (neither of which was my choice), and have been reunited with him as an adult (his choice and I approached him by letter first, and I'm letting him set the pace/tone for our relationship).

So much misinformation here. The other posters are right that in the US at least, Safe Havens are not a way for women to "give away" their babies anonymously; they were intended as an alternative to infanticide--usually a case of a terrified teenager who kept her pregnancy a secret and gave birth in secret and then left the baby in the toilet stall or dumped it somewhere. It was intended as offering them a way to save the child without going to prison or otherwise getting in trouble.

Women who want to surrender with no contact, ever--and that is very much a minority of women who surrender their children--have the option of a closed adoption. In this case, the agency would keep nonidentifying information, as much as possible (and hopefully accurate, although my agency just made up a lot of the stuff it put in records) so that an adult adoptee could at least have access to medical and other genetic information. The parents could also stay in touch with the agency and let them know where they are, so that in the future if they change their minds (and many do), the adopted adult could mediate communication if either party requests it.

IMO, even if a birthparent does want to be anonymous--and as I said, most don't--that doesn't trump an adult's right to know the truth about his or her origins. Yes, life is messy and not all stories are rosy, and not all reunions are wonderful. But people have the right to know who they are and where they came from.

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And as long as we're comparing friend-of credentials, my wife (adopted as an infant from India, never learning her biological parents' identity) is offended by your blanket statements about adoption.

Then she should really take her complaint to FN, since it is stated in the Children’s Right’s Convention - article 7, that a child has the RIGHT to know their parentage. :cray-cray:

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Effie - I also wonder what the big difference between writing C + M + B on the door and having an advent star or advent candle in the window clearly visible to everybody who walks by, something that 90% of the ethnic Swedes have during the whole month of December?

I never said it was wrong or strange, only that it was remarkable to me since I had never seen anything like it before. I asked what it stood for cause I didn't really know.
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I'm confused. Not about some of the good points being made but that I thought Effie said in her first post she was Polish? Visiting her homeland from Sweden where she lives?

Yes, I've had a Polish citizenship.

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Sorry to double post (can't edit any more), but I just wanted to add this:

I guess the reason I feel the way I do is because there is a very strong likelihood I was conceived by rape. I would never want to make a woman who had to go through rape, or abuse, or incest, or any situation like that to be forced to be confronted by that unless she were ready to deal with it. I see the choice to give a child up for adoption as a pretty selfless (especially in the context of rape and abuse), and I can't bring myself to judge a woman who went through that for not wanting to have to meet the child and relive the experience.

At one stage when I was talking to K I think she thought that I was going to ask about my biological father and the look of fear and alarm on her face is something I will never forget. I think that creates a very strong bias in my opinions and I probably overly empathise with the plight of biological mothers. I don't mean to come across as judgmental towards people who think children have an absolute right to information about their biological parents.

Of course, this doesn't have anything to do with the baby hatches, it's a completely different thing.

Vex, I'm sorry. I honestly didn't think of that.

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You do a much too nice job cherry picking the replies and answers you got whilst blithely ignoring whatever didn't fit.

I can't really answer everything. Anyhow, you mentioned infanticide before. So far, there is no known statistic to prove that the baby hatches have prevented that. Just one example: "There are in fact no official statistics. No one knows whether fewer babies have been abandoned or killed since the introduction of baby hatches in Germany. Possibly the offer even generates demand, in that it might be the existence of the provision which might give the idea of dropping off her baby to a mother who otherwise might have kept her baby or given it up for adoption.†http://www.dw.de/government-debates-dan ... a-16666486

Only cause I'm not an adoptee doesn't mean I'm not allowed to discuss the topic either. I looked up my own father when I was 20-something. I felt that I needed to do it, even though the outcome wasn't great (we really had nothing in common). Still, he was part of my history.

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Oh, Caritas reminds me: When the three kings (aka children from the parish dressed up) come around in Germany to write their blessing on the door, they collect also money for charity.

Effie, I think what you do not seem to get: The post you started the topic with could be summed up with "All customs that are, how remotely ever, religious, are bad, bad, bad! Religion never belongs in public". And this statement is, well... bad, bad, bad. Not all religion is damaging, not all customs superstitious and not all religious people are stupid or uneducated. Imagine instead of religious people in Poland, you would have written the same about black people in the US. See how offensive it would be?

I also started the topic by apologizing beforehand that I would probably come across as biased. I posted this topic cause I wanted to summarize some of my observations, and I hoped people would chime in with their experiences.

I will definitely admit that I'm biased towards my mother country, and/or xenophobic towards my own culture. It's not towards religious people in Poland per say. When I was 4 years old I had to fend off an old man on the street who threatened to put my little sister in a big black sack if she didn't stop crying. My mother had gone inside the store (and I could still see her from where I stood) but by some reason we two kids were both outside. My mum came out of the store quickly the first time and told the old man to back off. She explained to me that older people on the street aren’t used to children crying and not obeying their parents immediately. This happened more than once. I learned that those were empty threats, but I guess I early on learned to be suspicious towards people there. I never understood the "putting the child in a sack". I guess the point was to terrify the child so that he/she would be quiet.

As a youngster I also had to witness another mother spank her 3-year-old at a playground. And while I – at the same time, had learned that hitting anyone (especially some younger) is not acceptable EVER. Later on, I also had to witness my uncle spank my own little sister and find myself guilty for a decade because of it.

Whenever you hear about Poland on the news in Sweden, it's about something cray cray like the obsession over whether Tinky Winky is gay or not. But even my Russian/Polish grandma's magazine was critical towards the Polish society. I think many Poles are critical towards the Polish society.

I guess that criticizing the decorations of the graves was bad-taste. I'm just so used to seeing that: the ridiculous wealth lined up next to such extreme poverty in Poland. Since the beggars were even on the graveyard this time, it upset me, because I couldn't help thinking if people had given them money instead of buying so many flowers. It really made no sense to me. It still makes no sense to me.

I don't understand why the churches are so richly decorated, while the beggars sit outside in the cold. I really don't understand that.

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So you are a homeless swedish girl with no money, stranded in Poland...?

No. I don't consider myself to be homeless because I don't live on the street. I have money to make ends meet. (The only time I don't have money is when I give them away, but I can really afford giving money now and then.) Since my health is bad, I can't get a job. But I have an education so in that sense I could easily get a job if my health improved. I was invited by my mother to Poland.

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I also started the topic by apologizing beforehand that I would probably come across as biased. I posted this topic cause I wanted to summarize some of my observations, and I hoped people would chime in with their experiences.

I will definitely admit that I'm biased towards my mother country, and/or xenophobic towards my own culture. It's not towards religious people in Poland per say. When I was 4 years old I had to fend off an old man on the street who threatened to put my little sister in a big black sack if she didn't stop crying. My mother had gone inside the store (and I could still see her from where I stood) but by some reason we two kids were both outside. My mum came out of the store quickly the first time and told the old man to back off. She explained to me that older people on the street aren’t used to children crying and not obeying their parents immediately. This happened more than once. I learned that those were empty threats, but I guess I early on learned to be suspicious towards people there. I never understood the "putting the child in a sack". I guess the point was to terrify the child so that he/she would be quiet.

As a youngster I also had to witness another mother spank her 3-year-old at a playground. And while I – at the same time, had learned that hitting anyone (especially some younger) is not acceptable EVER. Later on, I also had to witness my uncle spank my own little sister and find myself guilty for a decade because of it.

Whenever you hear about Poland on the news in Sweden, it's about something cray cray like the obsession over whether Tinky Winky is gay or not. But even my Russian/Polish grandma's magazine was critical towards the Polish society. I think many Poles are critical towards the Polish society.

I guess that criticizing the decorations of the graves was bad-taste. I'm just so used to seeing that: the ridiculous wealth lined up next to such extreme poverty in Poland. Since the beggars were even on the graveyard this time, it upset me, because I couldn't help thinking if people had given them money instead of buying so many flowers. It really made no sense to me. It still makes no sense to me.

I don't understand why the churches are so richly decorated, while the beggars sit outside in the cold. I really don't understand that.

Apologizing beforehand is no excuse. "I'm not racist, but...[something racist]" isn't one, either. Saying your beef is with Polish culture in general and not with religion make sit, in my eyes, even worse, because it is arrogant and misinformed. Sure, you can like or dislike something, but putting a whole culture up for mockery and disdain is in very bad taste. Do you really think what happened to you as a child was a result of Polish culture? Many a child from many a nation has such stories to tell. Me too. A random women in the supermarket told me if I didn't shut up, a monster would come out of the deep freezer and eat me. Germany 1987. Same for spanking. Outlawing spanking in childrearing is a relatively new development, and while the Scandinavian countries certainly pioneer, it is also no "Polish thing" to spank children and the majority being ok with it.

"Others do it, too" is also no excuse. You should have learned that around the same age you learned not to randomly hurt other people.

There are so many things to criticize about religion in general, and the Catholic Church in particular, and you choose to get at richly decorated churches that are, for the most part, very old, works of art and non-marketable? Art is a value in itself.

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I can't really answer everything. Anyhow, you mentioned infanticide before. So far, there is no known statistic to prove that the baby hatches have prevented that. Just one example: "There are in fact no official statistics. No one knows whether fewer babies have been abandoned or killed since the introduction of baby hatches in Germany. Possibly the offer even generates demand, in that it might be the existence of the provision which might give the idea of dropping off her baby to a mother who otherwise might have kept her baby or given it up for adoption.†http://www.dw.de/government-debates-dangers-of-baby-hatches/a-16666486

Now that was a godawful article!

Kleine does not even know how baby hatches work :

"There are in fact no official statistics. No one knows whether fewer babies have been abandoned or killed since the introduction of baby hatches in Germany. Possibly the offer even generates demand, in that it might be the existence of the provision which might give the idea of dropping off her baby to a mother who otherwise might have kept her baby or given it up for adoption."

Ring Ring GUTEN MORGEN! Babies found in baby hatches ARE given up for adoption if the mother doesn´t/ couldn´t claim her child in a 2 months time.... they are not left in the woods with the nearly-extincted wolves.

Besides how does Kleine think giving a baby to a baby hatch actually takes place?

Does she think the mother causually strolls by a bh-point and suddenly just comes up with "Well, I want to get my nails done since quite a time but that stroller is so damn clumsy, I may as well just drop the brat here..."

Also:

"Legal confidential births might also open the floodgates to anonymous births, Kleine warns: "It is an invitation to take advantage of the law, so that a mother could bear a child in a sheltered environment - only to disappear afterwards."

:angry-banghead:.

Some people just don´t know how life in general works...

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Quick look at the Caritas statistics (the charity who opened the baby hatches);since the first baby hatch was opened in Poland in 2006, 41 children were left there. The mother has 8 weeks to come back for the child, 20 % of people exercised that right. That averages 6 kids per year being abandoned, 5 put for adoption. Just to put in in the context that if, as you suggest that this is an alternative to support an anti abortion law in Poland, it is a minuscule drop in the ocean.

I remember following the first opening of those windows in Polish press, and my impression was that it was never, in the understanding of the public, intended as a way of tackling anti abortion laws in Poland.

That's called propaganda. Read the following articles to get a more nuanced view:

Nowicka, Wanda, Sexual and reproductive rights and the human rights agenda: controversial and contested,

Reproductive Health Matters, 2011

Środa, Magdalena,

Dickensowskie okno

życia, Wyborcza, 2012-12-04,

http://wyborcza.pl/1,75968,12983814,Dic ... .html?bo=1

Keszka, Joanna, Wstyd mi za okna życia w Polsce, Barbarella, 2013-01-22,

http://barbarella.pl/z_zycia/wstyd-mi-z ... a-w-polsce

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Anyway, Effie at least got to see that posting a bunch of borderline xenophobic, bigoted crap with a thin veneer of "hey, look at my 'remarkable' fundie observations" doesn't win you any favours, although it did get her some lovely, thoughful posts. My thanks to all the adoptees who chimed in. It is a pretty close topic to me and my family and I really enjoyed reading the personal experiences.

While I find it flattering that you’ve taken the time to diagnose me as borderline, since that makes me feel extra special, it really proves nothing other than your general lack of knowledge. Since Borderline is the least of what I have, it only serves to prove how absolutely ignorant you must be in this field to possibly reach such a conclusion.

And you should really never bother to diagnose someone who has a degree in behavioral science. We are normally more than well-aware of how our own minds work. While we aren’t exactly qualified to diagnose ourselves, we are qualified to diagnose other people. Also most of us (including myself) have been evaluated by professionals. Anyhow, since you took interest in my mental health though, here you go:

Disorder Rating

Paranoid: Low

Schizoid: Low

Schizotypal: Low

Antisocial: Low

Borderline: Low

Histrionic: Low

Narcissistic: Low

Avoidant: Very High

Dependent: High

Obsessive-Compulsive: Low

I’m not here to make friends. I’m here to exchange ideas/opinions as I feel that I’ve gained a lot new perspectives from this forum. I have learned a lot and I’m grateful for that.

I have learned that polygamy should be accepted and respected.

I have learned that you can’t explain away evilness with mental illness (Breivik for example), and that evil people actually do exist. I had a hard time accepting that, cause I wanted to see evil people as ill people, since then it would be possible to fix them.

I have learned that volunteer tourism should be questioned.

I have learned that the pro-life-movement is an elitist movement, where the compassion ends once the baby is born.

I have learned that some people tend to believe more in tradition-based knowledge than reality-based knowledge.

I have learned that there’s a real threat towards women’s reproductive health in other parts of the worlds.

I have learned why home-schooling must be regulated.

I have learned that “moderate†is considered liberal in other parts of the world, while I consider it to be conservative.

Sometimes I’m away from here for several months, when I’ve realized that I have mainly spent time here to avoid my own part of the world which is significantly different from the reality in U.S. for example. In the end, there’s something that always draws me back here.

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Do you really think what happened to you as a child was a result of Polish culture?
Yes, Poland is not a child-friendly country. You don’t want to be a child there, and trust me cause I’ve been a child there. And so has my mother who can attest to the same thing. You are expected to act like a mini-adult. Otherwise you get hit. I can clearly see the difference on how children are met there in contrast to here.

You can't be xenophobic towards your own culture.

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Now that was a godawful article!

Kleine does not even know how baby hatches work :

"There are in fact no official statistics. No one knows whether fewer babies have been abandoned or killed since the introduction of baby hatches in Germany. Possibly the offer even generates demand, in that it might be the existence of the provision which might give the idea of dropping off her baby to a mother who otherwise might have kept her baby or given it up for adoption."

Ring Ring GUTEN MORGEN! Babies found in baby hatches ARE given up for adoption if the mother doesn´t/ couldn´t claim her child in a 2 months time.... they are not left in the woods with the nearly-extincted wolves.

Besides how does Kleine think giving a baby to a baby hatch actually takes place?

Does she think the mother causually strolls by a bh-point and suddenly just comes up with "Well, I want to get my nails done since quite a time but that stroller is so damn clumsy, I may as well just drop the brat here..."

Also:

"Legal confidential births might also open the floodgates to anonymous births, Kleine warns: "It is an invitation to take advantage of the law, so that a mother could bear a child in a sheltered environment - only to disappear afterwards."

:angry-banghead:.

Some people just don´t know how life in general works...

I took a very random article cause I didn't have the time to look much further for what I had in mind. (I didn't want to log in to a scientific database since I would have to find my password first.) Google seems to have changed (?). It used to be easier to search for articles (or maybe I used Google scholar before?). Anyhow, UN has been condemning the baby hatches. Let's keep it short: "Just like medieval times in many countries we see people claiming that baby boxes prevent infanticide … there is no evidence for this." - Maria Herczog, a member of the UNCRC committee. If you question the competence of UN, then that's your choice.

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Anyhow, UN has been condemning the baby hatches. Let's keep it short: "Just like medieval times in many countries we see people claiming that baby boxes prevent infanticide … there is no evidence for this." - Maria Herczog, a member of the UNCRC committee. If you question the competence of UN, then that's your choice.

The whole UN has not condemned baby hatches, Herczog did. And I indeed question the views and also the competence of Herczog, which does not represent the whole UN!

You could google Herczog yourself... here´s an example anyway:

"Herczog has suggested that these facilities "encourage women to give birth in very insecure circumstances"."

How do people even make such mental leaps... :cray-cray:

No Maria Herczog, giving birth and having to give up a baby does not work that way. No woman ever said: "Oh, I was going to give birth to the baby in the hospital and going to raise it - BUt NOW THERE´S A BABY HATCH, so I may as well give birth in the basement and then just put it there, what could possibly go wrong!?" No, not happening!

We have both, anonymous birth and baby hatches, in Austria and I firmly believe both serve a important but yet different meaning ( I explained above).

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While I find it flattering that you’ve taken the time to diagnose me as borderline, since that makes me feel extra special, it really proves nothing other than your general lack of knowledge. Since Borderline is the least of what I have, it only serves to prove how absolutely ignorant you must be in this field to possibly reach such a conclusion.

Dear Effie; i believe your xenophobia was being called borderline, not yourself. As a person who only speaks one language, I admire the ability to converse in more than on, and I am sure this is just a factor of English being your 2nd or 3rd language.

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The whole UN has not condemned baby hatches, Herczog did. And I indeed question the views and also the competence of Herczog, which does not represent the whole UN!

You could google Herczog yourself... here´s an example anyway:

"Herczog has suggested that these facilities "encourage women to give birth in very insecure circumstances"."

How do people even make such mental leaps... :cray-cray:

No Maria Herczog, giving birth and having to give up a baby does not work that way. No woman ever said: "Oh, I was going to give birth to the baby in the hospital and going to raise it - BUt NOW THERE´S A BABY HATCH, so I may as well give birth in the basement and then just put it there, what could possibly go wrong!?" No, not happening!

We have both, anonymous birth and baby hatches, in Austria and I firmly believe both serve a important but yet different meaning ( I explained above).

I have to say Anny Nym I tend to see the point. I would make that mental leap. Not in the way you exampled. If as evidenced by some of the examples above a woman wishes to conceal the nature of the conception, the actual pregnancy, then why not the birth when you can also conceal the baby via a baby hatch and this could lead to less than safe or secure birth options. I'm not sure anonymous birth would always be trusted or a guarantee for many women in many cultures.

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