My close encounter with religious people in Poland

[Vex]

And why shouldn't a person have the right to be able to find their ancestors, if they so wanted to?! They are denied that possibility when they are given anonymously. I have a friend who was adopted at an early age from Indonesia. She has traveled there several times with the wish to find her biological parents. She hasn't been able to find them, and that grieves her still. Many people want and need to know about their ancestors.

I find that a very selfish and sort-sighted point of view.

Women should be able to anonymously give up their babies for adoption if they so choose. Giving birth to a child doesn't mean that child has the right to hunt you down and demand you answer questions or explain yourself. Giving up a child is an extremely difficult thing to do for most women. They shouldn't have to live in fear of that child just showing up in their lives randomly like your friend wants to do. I think going to overseas to hunt down your biological parents without their knowledge or consent is extremely selfish unless you have no medical information whatsoever from them and you desperately need it for a serious medical reason.

I was given up for adoption. I was able to find my biological mother because of information she consented to give. I sure as hell didn't just show up on her doorstep. I didn't even contact her directly, I contacted her indirectly so she would not feel pressured to have contact with me if she did not want it. I think giving me up for adoption was a very selfless act on her part and I fully respect her choice and if she hadn't wanted anything to do with me I wouldn't have taken it personally. She has her own life and her own family and she doesn't owe me anything.

I didn't ask her anything about her choice to give me up, or her circumstances, or about my biological father because I knew that was very personal and painful. Literally all I know about my biological father is that he had Ulster Scott heritage and had brown eyes. And that's fine.

I know some adoptees have an insatiable need to 'know who they are' and 'where they come from', but they really need to respect their biological parents and their right to privacy. If a woman gives up a baby anonymously chances are she doesn't want to be tracked down and she has that right.

[tintaja]

Quick look at the Caritas statistics (the charity who opened the baby hatches);since the first baby hatch was opened in Poland in 2006, 41 children were left there. The mother has 8 weeks to come back for the child, 20 % of people exercised that right. That averages 6 kids per year being abandoned, 5 put for adoption. Just to put in in the context that if, as you suggest that this is an alternative to support an anti abortion law in Poland, it is a minuscule drop in the ocean.

I remember following the first opening of those windows in Polish press, and my impression was that it was never, in the understanding of the public, intended as a way of tackling anti abortion laws in Poland. It was seen as a solution to an possible scenario where the mother, for whatever reason, decides to bypass the adoption process and may choose the terrible way of just abandoning the baby somewhere. This happens anywhere in the world - look at the UK, the country that has abortion rights and well developed social care system - there were 2 recent searches for mothers of of abandoned babies - 1 baby abandoned in Worcester in July and a recent story of baby Jade abandoned 3 days ago. Had baby Jade been born in Poland she might not have been lucky to be alive - in November temperatures in Poland drop to below zero, and before the hatches were introduced those babies would often be found dead.

So as you can see, this is not a solution to anti abortion laws in Poland, abandoned babies happen when you have an option to leave the babies for adoption (as you have in Poland too btw), and countries that are pro abortion, like Canada and Belgium, have baby hatches too. It is just a way of tacking a problem, not ideal but better that the current alternatives of a possibility that the baby might die on the rare occasion when the mother chooses to leave her baby.

I hope to see Poland pass the right for abortion, and lessen the grip of the Catholic church on Polish politics. it is happening, slowly but surely. The younger generations leave church in droves, fight for women's and minority people rights, but it is is helluva of a ship to turn around and we have been at it for 20 years only. But even when it happens, you will more that likely find those nominal catholics or no catholics writing KMB on the doors, just like people across the world still have a Christmas tree during Christmas even if their never put a foot in the door of any church. You may find people like your relative who may say that they are glad that the hatches are there, because in their mind the connection that exists is that of 'lesser evil of having abandoned but safe baby than dead baby' while the problem get tacked on a bigger scale. You will find a lot of candles of my parents grave on All Saints day - not because my family engages in a competition who is the most popular (I find that comment terribly offensive) but because they left behind 4 children, 10 siblings and lots of friends and those people, far from being crazy fundie catholics engaged in morbid competition of decorating graves simply want to pay their respects by lighting a candle on their grave. Seeing all those candles on their graves always warms my heart, btw.

As a Pole, my overall problem with your post is the misinformation and very shallow understanding of the subject. I am always ready to engage in a conversation of what is wrong with the church in Poland (being a lapsed Catholic this is sort of my hobby now) but it is hard to argue when someone puts all Poles in one bag, ties the bag with their unsubstantiated inferences and presents it here in such a simplistic form.

ETA: should have proofread before posting

[Peas n carrots]

To be fair my experiences with Polish cuisine are in restaurants in US/Scotland, and the menu choices were heavy on the meaty side. My veg friend who is often our dining companion is usually relegated to cheese & onion pierogies, but she LOVES them so no complaints from her :-)

I can see where if meat was a past luxury it becoming a staple when a more affluent lifestyle is attained.

[Arete]

I understand if you would buy one flower but ten flowers? Why? How is that honoring? Especially when you have a poor person asking for money for milk just a meter away from you (which was the case)? I would find it to be dishonoring and disheartening

What is dishonoring and disheartening is your contempt for traditions and customs you do not personally practice, while at the same time dismissing the history and personal motives of the people practicing them.

[tintaja]

To be fair my experiences with Polish cuisine are in restaurants in US/Scotland, and the menu choices were heavy on the meaty side. My veg friend who is often our dining companion is usually relegated to cheese & onion pierogies, but she LOVES them so no complaints from her :-)

I can see where if meat was a past luxury it becoming a staple when a more affluent lifestyle is attained.

That's true - we will embellish every dish with a bit of meat - that was one way of making the meat go a long way. That, plus the fact that the vegetarian alternatives borne out of necessity were so dire (cooked pasta squares with fried cabbage anyone? :D ) that when I take my kids to Poland they feel sorry for what I had had to eat. Vegetarian options on the restaurant menu will be very, very scarce indeed.

Polish press report that, rather surprisingly, Poland is very slow to grow a comprehensive restaurant network. There are high price, ambitious restaurants in big cites, nothing in the middle, and then at the bottom the restaurants that survive are pizzerias and ' milk bars' - fast food outlets that sell Polish comfort food. So yes, it will be hard to find reasonably priced, not boring, vegetarian food in a restaurant in Poland - this lack, form a tourist point of view, may well contribute to a skewed perception that 'vegeterian' and 'Poland' don't go together.

[Anny Nym]

Nothing here implies that I'm not equally upset with all other holidays. which. I. am. I'm very anti-all other materialistic holidays. I just discovered another holiday which to me has become very materialistic as well. And I don't like that. Oh bother. :roll:

I understand if you would buy one flower but ten flowers? Why? How is that honoring? Especially when you have a poor person asking for money for milk just a meter away from you (which was the case)? I would find it to be dishonoring and disheartening.

Oh boy, one of those "Look at me, I´m oh-so fucking non-conformist and oh-so above all this sheeply holiday- celebrating sheeps!" people... :roll:

Frankly, I don´t care if you like a particular holiday or not if you celebrate it or not or if you celebrate anti-holidays just for your personal funsies.

But your ridiculous and extaggerated "I´m upset" you show here is just unnecessary. ESPECIALLY when it´s about a day like All Saints Day! That´s just a matter of respect and also manners.

About the flowers: usually one relative lays one flower (or flower arrangement) on the gravesite, but if there are more relatives and it´s a big family, everyone lays flowers down and Wallah! suddenly you have ten flowers ;) Didn´t this occur to you?

So did you give this person money for milk? And your mobile? your credit card? Do you harbour 15 refugees in your home? No? Then I find YOU quite dishonouring and dis heartening!

[DarkAnts]

Why are people so quick to ridicule each other on freejinger? I find the trend to be disheartening.

edit for riffles.

[Dinorah]

I've travelled to Poland a few times and most of the people I met weren't fanatically religious at all, although they were highly educated and urban.

I come from another Catholic majority country and All Saints' is, or at least used to be, a big thing. The point is reconnecting with your deceased loved ones, not showing off or whatever. Money gets blown on unnecessary things on all sorts of holidays.

[nimerha]

Nothing here implies that I'm not equally upset with all other holidays. which. I. am. I'm very anti-all other materialistic holidays. I just discovered another holiday which to me has become very materialistic as well. And I don't like that. Oh bother. :roll:

I understand if you would buy one flower but ten flowers? Why? How is that honoring? Especially when you have a poor person asking for money for milk just a meter away from you (which was the case)? I would find it to be dishonoring and disheartening.

Wow, it must be so difficult to be you, so disheartened with materialistic holidays. I find it hilarious, however, that you're showing your moral superiority by ripping into a tradition that symbolizes sacrifice, bringing ritual offerings to loved ones' graves - but hey, whatever. So, if you truly are so disheartened to see money wasted when people are in need, what do you spend your fun money on? Clothes? Education? Art? Books, theatre? Pretty much everything that constitutes the finer points of culture and civilization is suddenly wasteful and immoral if you contrast it with feeding the needy! Yet I doubt that all of your income, after covering your basic needs (speaking bare nourishment and shelter), goes to the starving children of the world.

Anyway, please continue to ignore the number of people who pointed that if twenty people bring a single flower to a grave, you will have twenty flowers. It doesn't really matter, cause you know what? If I have my own reason to bring a bouquet of lilies to my grandmother's grave, then I have my own fucking reason. You might have missed this the first time around, but nobody is asking you to like these traditions. It is just a basic human decency to respect them. If you can't show basic human decency to others, don't expect it to make a lot of friends.

They have managed to follow up some of the people who have handed in the children in the baby boxes/hatches. Apparently, in very few cases, they have been given away by their mothers. More commonly, it has been the mother's father, boyfriend and even "pimp". Who knows if the mothers really wanted to give away their children? They don't ever have a chance to regret it either. What if the mother had a postpartum depression or postpartum psychosis and gave away her child in that episode? She can't change her mind. ever. Normally an adoption process takes a lot of time, which is good because then the mother can have the chance and time to really process it herself. And second regrets are okay.

And eh, what happened to using your social services and actually work with the parents and help them?! Especially since financial reasons often lie behind such a decision to give your child away?!

And why shouldn't a person have the right to be able to find their ancestors, if they so wanted to?! They are denied that possibility when they are given anonymously. I have a friend who was adopted at an early age from Indonesia. She has traveled there several times with the wish to find her biological parents. She hasn't been able to find them, and that grieves her still. Many people want and need to know about their ancestors.

If you honestly defend this practice, then fuck you right back.

Sure, you can find my little sister's thesis. It's written in Swedish though. But I won't link to it because I don't want to reveal my identity.

Awright, let's be serious. Who are these mysterious "them"? Who did they follow up with? Show me those sexy numbers, show me the studies. But more importantly, what do you think would have happened to these babies if these abusive fathers, boyfriends and pimps (no need for the scare quotes, we're all growns up here) didn't have the baby hatch? I wish I was the first one to say this in this thread: the hatches are not an alternative to abortion, they are an alternative to infanticide. Yes, I will honestly defend the practice of giving abandoned babies a chance to survive, as long as babies continue to be abandoned, because that is currently a fact of life.

We don't live in an ideal world. I happen to work with children and babies every day, and I could speak (or type) for hours on the importance of early childhood, the love and acceptance from their parents, and the millions of ways children are cruelly mistreated in the world. Until we get to this ideal world, where every mother either wants her child or at least is able to make an intelligent, informed choice to give them a better family, I'll defend whatever I think helps. That doesn't mean I don't also support better social services, better foster care system and better adoption practices. Real life is not that black and white, and all you've showed so far is painful ignorance on the subject.

And as long as we're comparing friend-of credentials, my wife (adopted as an infant from India, never learning her biological parents' identity) is offended by your blanket statements about adoption. Adoption is a complex practice fraught with many issues and problems, happening all over the world in a multitude of ways and for many reasons. You are demonstrating an after-school-special level of knowledge about it. I heartily recommend the FJ archives for some wonderful, in-depth discussions with people representing a lot of different views and opinions - and how about Vex's post above - before you lecture anyone else on the topic.

[Vex]

And as long as we're comparing friend-of credentials, my wife (adopted as an infant from India, never learning her biological parents' identity) is offended by your blanket statements about adoption. Adoption is a complex practice fraught with many issues and problems, happening all over the world in a multitude of ways and for many reasons. You are demonstrating an after-school-special level of knowledge about it. I heartily recommend the FJ archives for some wonderful, in-depth discussions with people representing a lot of different views and opinions - and how about Vex's post above - before you lecture anyone else on the topic.

I'm offended by it too. It dehumanises the mothers who give up their babies, it's extremely selfish, and it's insulting to anyone who has ever considered adoption or abortion. You seem quick to condemn other people's practices without putting yourself in their shoes (i.e. the all saints day stuff). Everyone makes mistakes and snap judgements sometimes and who hasn't had a controversial opinion? But when you've insulted and demeaned so many people in a few short posts it might be a good idea to take stock of what people are saying.

But rather than berating you I'd like to give you something to think about, re the complexity of adoption and the plight of the women who choose it:

My biological mother (who I will refer to as K for simplicity's sake) came from a family with 6 kids. K's mother died when she was 8 and her father died when she was 12. Her family had to move in with her grandmother, and they had no money. She got pregnant with me when she was 16.

K never explained what the deal was with my biological father, except to say she told him she was pregnant and he moved away. The way K explained it, they could have been in a relationship. However, the nurses who interviewed her thought there was a strong possibility K had been raped. K was very torn about what to do. She didn't have the means to raise a child but she also wanted to keep me.

I was born with severe health problems. I was 3 weeks premature, tiny, with holes in my heart and my lung (amongst other issues). She freaked out and ran away from the hospital after signing the adoption papers.

There is a 2 week grace period where bio-parents can change their mind and undo the adoption here. K returned to the hospital, wanting to take me back, but it was too late. She left some stuff for my parents, stuff that explained what her interests and hobbies were, and her name in case I ever wanted to find her. That was 100% her choice. If she hadn't left any of those things I probably would have assumed she didn't want to be contacted and I wouldn't have done it.

Sadly, she didn't cope very well. She ended up getting pregnant very soon after giving birth to me (deliberately) and she had my step brother just over a year after I was born. She kept him. I also have a half sister who is almost 10 years younger than me.

As you can see, that was a very emotional and complex situation. You can't just say 'how dare they abandon their children and not give their offspring the choice to know them', because it is not that simple. People do not just give babies up because they're inconvenient, and those safe havens are not an alternative to abortion. Women who are determined to have abortions find a way. It is SO HARD for most women to go through 9 months of carrying a child inside them and then give them up and accept they will probably not see them again. It's usually a case of wanting to give the child a better life, or knowing they are unable to care for them. Your stance is not very different from the anti-choice strawman that women use abortions as birth control, even if you're pro-choice.

When a woman goes so far as to give her child up anonymously they probably have a good reason that they don't want to be found. Maybe they were raped and don't want to have to tell the child. Maybe the child was a product of a one night stand during a relationship and they are ashamed. Maybe they were single and their family pressured them into having and giving up the child in secret to preserve their social standing (was very very common not that long ago and still regularly happens). Maybe they are married to someone who would be furious with them if they found out they had a child before they were married. Maybe they never disclosed the adoption to their spouse/family. Maybe it is simply an extremely painful chapter of their life they cannot deal with.

So please try to empathise with everyone effected by adoption. Like many things, it is far more complicated than anyone can ever really know from the outside looking in.

[Effie]

I know some adoptees have an insatiable need to 'know who they are' and 'where they come from', but they really need to respect their biological parents and their right to privacy. If a woman gives up a baby anonymously chances are she doesn't want to be tracked down and she has that right.

What about working to de-stigmatize adoption instead? Because I think the main problem lies there. You haven’t specified the reasons why those women prefer to give away their babies anonymously. As I see it: women are first expected to give birth in secret (at home) and then hand the children away in a baby box - also in secret to avoid being stigmatized. It's all about hiding the fact that some women can't take care of their own children. Why all this anonymity? Is it something to hide away? Something to be ashamed of? I don't think the baby boxes tackle the stigma surrounding adoption.

[Effie]

About the flowers: usually one relative lays one flower (or flower arrangement) on the gravesite, but if there are more relatives and it´s a big family, everyone lays flowers down and Wallah! suddenly you have ten flowers ;) Didn´t this occur to you?

I went with people to the graves. One put 6 lanterns on one grave. Another one put three different flowers on another grave.

So did you give this person money for milk? And your mobile? your credit card? Do you harbour 15 refugees in your home? No? Then I find YOU quite dishonouring and dis heartening!

Of course I gave this person money for milk. Why wouldn't I? Eh I don't have a credit card. Also I don't have a functioning mobile. Also I don't have a home. And I'm not going to even bother to comment on "what ifs" I did have a credit card, or mobile or whatever.

[Cran]

Sure, you're poor homeless soul using the free wifi of a coffee shop or another with a borrowed laptop. Or something like that.

Obviously, you don't have to be religious to be bigoted.

[Effie]

Awright, let's be serious. Who are these mysterious "them"? Who did they follow up with? Show me those sexy numbers, show me the studies.

They even mentioned it on T.V. the other day. Agenda on Sunday I think. An adoption specialist was talking about that there's an increasing evidence to support that the most common baby donors are male. There are no numbers, since little research is done in this area. Browne (something?) has also made a study where it has been possible to find the identity of some of the baby donors. I mostly find Polish articles. I could look for an English article later if you don't manage to find it.

But more importantly, what do you think would have happened to these babies if these abusive fathers, boyfriends and pimps (no need for the scare quotes, we're all growns up here) didn't have the baby hatch? I wish I was the first one to say this in this thread: the hatches are not an alternative to abortion, they are an alternative to infanticide. Yes, I will honestly defend the practice of giving abandoned babies a chance to survive, as long as babies continue to be abandoned, because that is currently a fact of life.

There are NO statistics that indicate that the number of lives saved has increased since the baby boxes were introduced. Who is ignorant really?!

You portray women as a group with a natural inclination to dump babies in dust bins. Women are no monsters. Most of us are absolutely capable of feeling empathy.

Once again, by providing mothers the opportunity to anonymously give away their babies, there is a risk that this is done without their consent. Therefore there is no guarantee that it is the child's biological mother who has made the decision to give away her child. It is also difficult to know if the child's both parents have consented. If that’s not the case, one of the parents is denied his/her right to custody of his/her child. That is not acceptable.

With baby hatches, the state's responsibility to help mothers provide the conditions necessary for them to keep their children, is overlooked.

[Effie]

Sure, you're poor homeless soul using the free wifi of a coffee shop or another with a borrowed laptop. Or something like that.

Obviously, you don't have to be religious to be bigoted.

I stay at other people's place. I don't know if I'm poor. I think I could get a job if my health improved. But all this is really irrelevant.

[Peas n carrots]

I suppose I have a slightly different view on adoption. I'm an adoptee lite so my situation is a bit different than Vex's.

I reunited with my bio father a few years ago. I had put out a notice on an Internet forum that I wanted my medical history. In the US, laws vary from state to state on how much access adoptee's get to their own records. In my home state, I needed parental consent (yes, even at the age of 28 I was still considered a child). So if I wanted to know anything about 1/2 of my medical lineage I had to ask my very uncooperative mother or seek out my bio father.

It was a damn good thing I did, as I came to find out there was a very serious medical condition I needed to be aware of and on the lookout for.

I just really can't go along with the entire "protect the mother at all costs" view in adoption. This kind of belief is what lead to laws today that treat adoptees as "forever children" and deny us of our own histories. Adoption is a difficult decision and sometimes the histories are ugly. But that doesn't mean a subset of people should be kept in the dark to protect someone else's feelings.

I know there is a wide range of views in the adoption community, so I won't make any claims this is how all adoptees feel, but just how some of us feel.

[Effie]

The baby hatches insinuate that these women are doing something wrong, and therefore they need to relinquish the children anonymously in the middle of the night.

Who cares about those women's trauma? Or the conditions that made them feel forced to give up their children?

There should be campaigns that inform people that there is nothing wrong with women finding themselves in situations where they lack the ability to care for their children. Women and men should be able to give away their children during the day, and not have to hide it. There should be a supporting environment where they will find the necessary support, understanding and help. But they don't have that. And I think they should.

I just really can't go along with the entire "protect the mother at all costs" view in adoption. This kind of belief is what lead to laws today that treat adoptees as "forever children" and deny us of our own histories. Adoption is a difficult decision and sometimes the histories are ugly. But that doesn't mean a subset of people should be kept in the dark to protect someone else's feelings. .

+1 I also think people have the right to their history. I don't think my friend is selfish for wanting to know. She feels it's part of her identity that she is missing.

[Anny Nym]

I went with people to the graves. One put 6 lanterns on one grave. Another one put three different flowers on another grave.

Do you play possum here on purpose? Just a quick minute of trying to apply common logic and giving it a thought would have give you some obvious answers, but maybe you really just need a quick lecture in All Saints Day costums and continental european burial and mourning traditions. Here we go: Many graves in catholic european countries are "family graves" (or crypts) which means more than just one person is laid to rest there. So every family member in such a grave obviously deserves a latern or candle. Same with the "3 different flowers". It´s costum to bring special made flower arrangements ("Allerheiligengestecke" for instance, in german) or bouquets of flowers, which bear a special meaning in the process of mourning or rememberance ( fe: lilies stand for honour and eternal light, forget-me-nots obviously for one will not be forgotten, a wreath made from evergreens symbolizes the circle of life and the eternal soul...)

Another simple explaination, apart from family graves, is: Not everyone could make the trip to the graves of ones family on All Saints Day. May it be due to stuck in projects, having very small children at home or being not in an walking -condition (fe. old ladies with knee and hip problems). So one might ask a relative if he or she would bring flowers or light a candle on their name. An Wallah again, all YOU saw was someone lighting 6 candles.

Sadly, you decided to belittle this candlelighter instead of asking for obvious explainations first.

Of course I gave this person money for milk. Why wouldn't I? Eh I don't have a credit card. Also I don't have a functioning mobile. Also I don't have a home. And I'm not going to even bother to comment on "what ifs" I did have a credit card, or mobile or whatever.

So you are a homeless swedish girl with no money, stranded in Poland...?

[Clementine]

Do you play possum here on purpose? Just a quick minute of trying to apply common logic and giving it a thought would have give you some obvious answers, but maybe you really just need a quick lecture in All Saints Day costums and continental european burial and mourning traditions. Here we go: Many graves in catholic european countries are "family graves" (or crypts) which means more than just one person is laid to rest there. So every family member in such a grave obviously deserves a latern or candle. Same with the "3 different flowers". It´s costum to bring special made flower arrangements ("Allerheiligengestecke" for instance, in german) or bouquets of flowers, which bear a special meaning in the process of mourning or rememberance ( fe: lilies stand for honour and eternal light, forget-me-nots obviously for one will not be forgotten, a wreath made from evergreens symbolizes the circle of life and the eternal soul...)

Another simple explaination, apart from family graves, is: Not everyone could make the trip to the graves of ones family on All Saints Day. May it be due to stuck in projects, having very small children at home or being not in an walking -condition (fe. old ladies with knee and hip problems). So one might ask a relative if he or she would bring flowers or light a candle on their name. An Wallah again, all YOU saw was someone lighting 6 candles.

Sadly, you decided to belittle this candlelighter instead of asking for obvious explainations first.

So you are a homeless swedish girl with no money, stranded in Poland...?

Actually, the tradition is pretty much the same in Sweden, but with wreaths instead of flowers. I am surprised that Effie doesn't know that.

My mother's family put three different decorations on her parent's grave this year, one from every child of my grandparent's, and I asked her to light two extra candles from just me on their grave too - I live in another part of the country and couldn't visit the cemetary.

On top of that I went to my nearest graveyard and lit eight candles in the remembrance garden, one candle for every beloved one that has passed. (Oh the excess!) And I am not even religious, I just love this tradition. I spent a grand total of $12 on candles and another $12 on a bottle of glühwein to drink when I got back home.

Effie, do a little more research about your own country before you start to write blanket statements about how "we" do it.

I think it is pretty amazing that the Poles managed to keep their own traditions and religion, even under the communistic regime.

[Anny Nym]

I also don´t get the beef here some people have with baby hatches... FYI, they are NOT MEANT TO BE THE SOLE VARIANT OF GIVING UP A BABY FOR ADOPTION! THAT´S A COMPLETE DIFFERENT THING!

Usually, when one mother needs to give up a child for adoption, processes with all the necessary paperwork are the norm. In Poland, In Austria, in France.. (every one of this countries has baby hatches) and all this things usually take place in daylight.

Baby hatches are meant to be a safe opportunity for people (regardless if it´s the mother, father or even an unrelated person) who find themselves in an urgent dangerous situation involving an infant who needs a safe place immediate, that couldn´t be provided otherwise.

Situations like this might be: Homeless, mentally ill and drug addicted women who fell pregnant and are unable or due to conditions "unwilling" to search for proper help (you have that cases in EVERY society!), infants being born or placed in an extremely dangerous enviroment like cults, sects, general crazy familys, incest victims, babies born secretly due to rape... . Or infants born to refugees on the flee or traveling "illegal migrants" with no place to stay,... (Again, you have this cases in EVERY society).

For short: A baby hatch will always be needed in even the most progressive societies, regardless of how much help is available, because you NEVER could cover all cases in daylight!

[Anny Nym]

Actually, the tradition is pretty much the same in Sweden, but with wreaths instead of flowers. I am surprised that Effie doesn't know that.

My mother's family put three different decorations on her parent's grave this year, one from every child of my grandparent's, and I asked her to light two extra candles from just me on their grave too - I live in another part of the country and couldn't visit the cemetary.

On top of that I went to my nearest graveyard and lit eight candles in the remembrance garden, one candle for every beloved one that has passed. (Oh the excess!) And I am not even religious, I just love this tradition. I spent a grand total of $12 on candles and another $12 on a bottle of glühwein to drink when I got back home.

Effie, do a little more research about your own country before you start to write blanket statements about how "we" do it.

I think it is pretty amazing that the Poles managed to keep their own traditions and religion, even under the communistic regime.

The same, with little variation, here too :-) : My aunt (who had to do shift as a nurse) even gave me serious & specific instructions on the phone for the florist about which colour, which greens and which flowers "her" arrangement for our great-grannie has to have, wich I placed in her name on our family grave along with mine. I hardly found an empty spot, "Oma [surname]" was a very beloved woman!

I also lit candles, I spent 10 euros or so on them, we have an vending machine for candles just outside the churchyard, with every 50 cents going to Caritas.

[Cran]

Oh, Caritas reminds me: When the three kings (aka children from the parish dressed up) come around in Germany to write their blessing on the door, they collect also money for charity.

Effie, I think what you do not seem to get: The post you started the topic with could be summed up with "All customs that are, how remotely ever, religious, are bad, bad, bad! Religion never belongs in public". And this statement is, well... bad, bad, bad. Not all religion is damaging, not all customs superstitious and not all religious people are stupid or uneducated. Imagine instead of religious people in Poland, you would have written the same about black people in the US. See how offensive it would be?

[OkToBeTakei]

I'm confused. Not about some of the good points being made but that I thought Effie said in her first post she was Polish? Visiting her homeland from Sweden where she lives?

[MamaJunebug]

I'm a Polonian - a descendant of Polish people. Mine chose not to pass along their culture or language to my generation, and I'll probably never get closer to Poland than 'Chicago* - but I'm proud as heck of being related to some of the strongest, most resilient people on earth.

All that said, thanks to everybody who's taken the time to respond to the original and following trollish posts. In Eastern Europe I saw K+M+B with the numerals of the current year and thought it was a nifty way to acknowledge one's faith and the sharing of the Messiah with Gentiles - or just to follow an old, old tradition. A lot like mezuzahs on the door frames of Jewish homes - to the cultural, agnostic Jew, it's a reminder of who s/he is; to a very observant Jew, it may be a lot more.

Poles, JMHO, have survived and prevailed over so much in the past. If their traditions add to the economy and benefit the needy, what's the problem? As to baby hatches, to me that's a choice, and I defend choice.

Nothing else new to say, quitting here.

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*Chicago, or so I've heard, has the highest number of Polish and Polish-descended people in the world outside of Poland itself.

[Clementine]

The same, with little variation, here too :-) : My aunt (who had to do shift as a nurse) even gave me serious & specific instructions on the phone for the florist about which colour, which greens and which flowers "her" arrangement for our great-grannie has to have, wich I placed in her name on our family grave along with mine. I hardly found an empty spot, "Oma [surname]" was a very beloved woman!

I also lit candles, I spent 10 euros or so on them, we have an vending machine for candles just outside the churchyard, with every 50 cents going to Caritas.

I think it's absolutely lovely that people spend so much thought and care to honour the late family members! It feels like the Universe is filled with love and gratitude on the All Saints' Day.

I love the All Saints' Day because it's the only holiday we have that is about remembrance, honoring the people who built this country etc. We don't have Thanksgiving, obviously, and we since we haven't been to war for 200 years, we don't have any remembrance days either.

It's nice with a holiday that isn't just about The Children (Christmas and Easter), getting drunk (Midsummer) or shopping (Christmas) but actually has some spiritual meaning to it. (Most Swedes celebrate Christmas and Easter just because of the tradition and the religious bits are completely left out).

Effie - I also wonder what the big difference between writing C + M + B on the door and having an advent star or advent candle in the window clearly visible to everybody who walks by, something that 90% of the ethnic Swedes have during the whole month of December?

https://www.google.se/search?q=adventss ... 66&bih=598

https://www.google.se/search?q=adventsl ... h&imgdii=_