Anyone offended by misogynist rap lyrics?

[dawbs]

Potentially casting some flamebait out on my line with this one, but oh well, here goes anyway: Personally, I think that "Baby It's Cold Outside" depends on context. If you view the characters in the song as being basically strangers, yeah, that's rapey. But it's potentially less so if it's an established relationship. If I'm hanging out with my husband and say, "okay, I'm going to bed," and he responds with, "oh, come on, stay up a little longer and have another beer with me, where's your sense of adventure" (which happens a fair bit in our house), that is very different from some dude I've just met at a party saying and doing the same things. So if you want to look at it as romantic partners teasing each other, the text of the song can support that too, IMO.

Not a song I'm personally a huge fan of regardless, but I also think we should give ourselves permission to like the things that we like, even if they have these potentially troublesome elements. A life consumed with guilt over entertainment preferences is no way to live - and alarmingly close to the kind of life that fundies would like us all to lead, too.

True, and the song was written by a man and his wife.

But, even with the context of a teasing, committed relationship, it always rubs me wrong.

Maybe because of the 'what's in this drink' and the fact that I've heard it used as a fundie rallying cry, which I'll paraphrase as "we should all go back to the simpler time, like when this song was written, when young women were worried about their reputation and what their elderly aunt would think about their dalliance" :roll:

[Minerva]

But, for the record, I don't know of anyone who gives rappers a pass on their misogyny, while condemning it elsewhere. Certainly nobody here has done it.

But...but...reverse-racist conspiracy! (Seriously, why do we not have a tinfoil hat smiley?)

[Minerva]

Yes, lyrics from other genres can be misogynistic. Feel free to start a post about them.

I don't get why people think misogyny is inexcusable, unless its coming from rap music, because hey! It happens in other genres too, and it's not right when it happens in THOSE genres, those scumbags! Let's start a tumblr about it! But don't you dare point out the graphic violence toward women depicted in rap! :penguin-no:

You entirely missed the point of that tumblr.

[thoughtful]

But...but...reverse-racist conspiracy! (Seriously, why do we not have a tinfoil hat smiley?)

How's that?

[formergothardite]

You entirely missed the point of that tumblr.

They did. :?

[Minerva]

This is relevant because I've been feeling extra sensitive to sexist music and slut shaming lyrics on the radio recently.

I like Paramore, but damnit if Misery Business isn't full of slut-shaming and use of the word whore.

Also, the new Panic! at the Disco song ("Where will you be waking up tomorrow morning?"). And all of Robin Thicke.

Oh and the new Justin Timberlake ("Kill me with the coo-coochie-coochie-coo She kill me with the coo-coochie-coochie-coo")

And let's not forget Taylor Swift.

I kinda want to put on my tin-foil hat on this one. It's all the music and it's everywhere all the time.

Yup. Misogyny is rampant in music, and has been since music first started having lyrics. Some days I'm just like "WHY DOES ALL THE CATCHY STUFF HAVE TO BE SEXIST?!" Like, why can't Down With Webster write awesome music and just leave out the references to getting underage girls drunk and being friendzoned and brawling with their exes' new boyfriends. Also, Robin Thicke's new song: catchy as fuck. :( Most days, I just suck it up and listen to what makes my brain happy, but if I just want to listen to something without misogynistic lyrics, I stick to feminist or left-wing artists. They're typically way better.

Also things I hate: listening to stuff that I was really into in high school and realizing how sexist it is. (Mostly classic rock. Especially AC/DC. Katy Perry too, though.) Or if there's a song where I've only heard the chorus, and it comes on the radio and I go around saying how much I love this song, then they sing the verses and everyone goes quiet and stares at me. Totally happened with Surrender by Cheap Trick. "Mama told me, yes she told me, I'd meet girls like you. She also told me 'Stay away, you never know what you'll catch.'" Yeah...

How's that?

Just what we needed!

[Mama Mia]

I'm really, really bad with loving catchy songs and not realizing how hateful / explicit the lyrics might be. It used to be really embarrassing around my family or co- workers. Most of the music I like seems to be vastly inappropriate. :embarrassed:

I understand the o.p. might have had a particular agenda, based on her other posts, but that doesn't mean that anyone who finds some of the explicitly violent and misogynist lyrics in some rap songs over the top is making some sort of racist statement.

Do other kinds of music have offensive, misogynistics songs? Of course. But the most over the top violent stuff I hear is in rap. Maybe it's because I hear a lot of rap played, as opposed to metal or punk ( for example ), so it stands out more.

[thoughtful]

I understand the o.p. might have had a particular agenda, based on her other posts, but that doesn't mean that anyone who finds some of the explicitly violent and misogynist lyrics in some rap songs over the top is making some sort of racist statement.

Of course not. I don't think anyone said that.

[Minerva]

I'm really, really bad with loving catchy songs and not realizing how hateful / explicit the lyrics might be. It used to be really embarrassing around my family or co- workers. Most of the music I like seems to be vastly inappropriate. :embarrassed:

I understand the o.p. might have had a particular agenda, based on her other posts, but that doesn't mean that anyone who finds some of the explicitly violent and misogynist lyrics in some rap songs over the top is making some sort of racist statement.

Do other kinds of music have offensive, misogynistics songs? Of course. But the most over the top violent stuff I hear is in rap. Maybe it's because I hear a lot of rap played, as opposed to metal or punk ( for example ), so it stands out more.

Rap is among the genres whose misogynistic lyrics tend to be particularly explicit. As the author of one of the studies referenced in the 2nd study Hilda referenced points out, this is part of the reason the media has disproportionately jumped all over rap. As the author states, the other reason rap is disproportionately jumped on is racism (not that this wasn't known before studies were done about it). Talking about rap's content isn't inherently racist. Deciding that a conversation about misogynistic lyrics should be entirely about rap feeds into that racism, whether this is done intentionally or not.

I also think focusing on over-the-top lyrics at the expense of discussing more subtle sexism is a bit of a copout. Anyone old enough to listen to explicit lyrics is old enough to realize that they are intentionally hyperbolic (at least in the case of some genres - when a fairly mainstream alt band sings about murder-suicide out of nowhere, it's hard to read it as an act). Not that that excuses it, but I can't see teenagers taking DMX's lyrics seriously the way I can see girls internalizing Taylor Swift's subtle misogyny. Subtle misogyny could easily be more damaging than explicit misogyny*, yet the focus is on the explicit stuff because it's a convenient way to capitalize on moral panic without asking any hard questions. (I'm not talking about you in this paragraph, MRS S2004.)

*The only exception to this would be lyrics about non-consensual sex, since many people, especially young people, don't realize that it's always rape. Rapey lyrics come in subtle forms, too, but I don't think the explicit ones are less damaging than the subtle ones.

[RosyDaisy]

Here's an oldie from country music: "Stand By Your Man" by Tammy Wynette. I despise that song!

[julie paradox]

"It's a man's world"

[blue_the_puppy]

You entirely missed the point of that tumblr.

Oh? Well I think the point of the tumblr is to point out that there are many non-rap songs that are misogynistic, and that people who focus solely on rap music's lyrics, or suggest that rap contains lyrics that are more misogynistic than other genres, may be doing so due to racist attitudes (or may be racist, period).

Is that not the point of the tumblr? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think the tumblr is absolutely silly, but that doesn't mean I don't understand what it's about.

[Minerva]

Oh? Well I think the point of the tumblr is to point out that there are many non-rap songs that are misogynistic, and that people who focus solely on rap music's lyrics, or suggest that rap contains lyrics that are more misogynistic than other genres, may be doing so due to racist attitudes (or may be racist, period).

Is that not the point of the tumblr? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think the tumblr is absolutely silly, but that doesn't mean I don't understand what it's about.

I would say the tumblr exits to counter the dominant narrative surrounding music, which overexposes the misogyny in rap and underexposes that in other music, but your interpretation may be on point, too. However, your previous comment implied that the tumblr was about giving rap a pass for its misogynistic lyrics, which is an entirely different thing.

[Mama Mia]

Rap is among the genres whose misogynistic lyrics tend to be particularly explicit. As the author of one of the studies referenced in the 2nd study Hilda referenced points out, this is part of the reason the media has disproportionately jumped all over rap. As the author states, the other reason rap is disproportionately jumped on is racism (not that this wasn't known before studies were done about it). Talking about rap's content isn't inherently racist. Deciding that a conversation about misogynistic lyrics should be entirely about rap feeds into that racism, whether this is done intentionally or not.

I also think focusing on over-the-top lyrics at the expense of discussing more subtle sexism is a bit of a copout. Anyone old enough to listen to explicit lyrics is old enough to realize that they are intentionally hyperbolic (at least in the case of some genres - when a fairly mainstream alt band sings about murder-suicide out of nowhere, it's hard to read it as an act). Not that that excuses it, but I can't see teenagers taking DMX's lyrics seriously the way I can see girls internalizing Taylor Swift's subtle misogyny. Subtle misogyny could easily be more damaging than explicit misogyny*, yet the focus is on the explicit stuff because it's a convenient way to capitalize on moral panic without asking any hard questions. (I'm not talking about you in this paragraph, MRS S2004.)

*The only exception to this would be lyrics about non-consensual sex, since many people, especially young people, don't realize that it's always rape. Rapey lyrics come in subtle forms, too, but I don't think the explicit ones are less damaging than the subtle ones.

But some teens and young adults most certainly do take DMX s lyrics seriously and try to emulate them. And I just looked up some of the lyrics from DMX, and they are actually are pretty mild compared to some of the stuff my relative blasts. I think its kind of silly to say you can't focus on one type of music, or only things that are overt, because some people will use that to make racial stereotypes. If the topic of misogyny in country music came up would people be told they had to include all other genres ? Probably not.

[thoughtful]

I keep thinking this when I see the subject of this thread, and maybe I should post it:

"Anybody? How about everybody?"

I mean, really -- did it need to be asked? I think it's a safe bet that those of us who generally post on FJ are offended by misogynist rap lyrics. That seems pretty predictable.

If someone without a history of racist crap had started this thread, there probably would have been answers agreeing, and then perhaps a drift to discussion of other styles.

But, as soon as I saw who started the thread, having seen her other pokes and prods around racism, and her fake-innocent "gee, you criticize some people, why not those weird Jews, bad Blacks and over-sensitive Hispanics" crap, it was pretty hard not to assume her slant. I doubt I was alone in that.

So I think she got earlier (and more) "I hate misogynist lyrics in all styles" answers than someone else might have, especially when she kept insisting.

Nobody defended misogyny in rap, nobody said that anyone who ever singles out rap is racist. They just pointed out less-obvious sources, and continued a conversation about misogyny in song lyrics.

I think there is something else at play here. As I have often said, I think one of the main things that sets FJers apart from many people is that we see the harm under the pretty facade. Anybody can see the misogyny in "women were made to be beaten and stabbed" lyrics, just like anyone can see it in the wackier MRA attitudes.

We discuss how we can see misogyny in the "umbrella of protection" and "you shouldn't dress like that" and "what's the use of wond'rin'" * and other non-violent ways it is expressed.

So I don't think it's surprising when any thread here turns from the obviously awful (the Pearls' child-beating) to the less-obvious (the parents who manipulate with guilt, under-educate, etc.). I think the discussion of the contrast (and, sometimes, lack of contrast) between the blatant and the more subtle is one of the most interesting things that goes on here.

* http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/carousel ... nderin.htm

[Minerva]

But some teens and young adults most certainly do take DMX s lyrics seriously and try to emulate them. And I just looked up some of the lyrics from DMX, and they are actually are pretty mild compared to some of the stuff my relative blasts. I think its kind of silly to say you can't focus on one type of music, or only things that are overt, because some people will use that to make racial stereotypes. If the topic of misogyny in country music came up would people be told they had to include all other genres ? Probably not.

Do you have any examples of people committing murder because DMX raps about it? Because it seems a bit far-fetched. I could see someone pointing to a crime and saying "They did it because they listen to DMX!" That argument gets made about music a fair bit, just as it is made about video games. However, both claims are based on a lot of pearl-clutching and not very much evidence.

Now I'm kinda curious what stuff your relative listens to. I can't really picture lyrics more violent than DMX's worst. There are only so many ways you can describe killing someone and/or a dead body.

The issue isn't that people could stereotype and excuse it by pointing to the fact that so many conversations about misogyny in music are limited to rap. I mean, yeah, white supremacists do make that argument, but they'll make an argument out of anything, so it's futile to shape your discourse around not giving racists fodder. The issue is that the dominant discourse around music treats misogyny as if it were limited to rap music because of racism. Making the assumption that a conversation about misogyny in music must be a conversation about rap is perpetuating a stereotype-based distortion.

I can imagine there are useful reasons to limit a discussion about misogyny to overt content. There is a problem, however, with claiming that overtly misogynistic lyrics are more harmful than subtle ones. There are a ton of legitimate reasons one could focus on a single genre when discussing misogyny in music. It's pretty much impossible to evaluate it from a sociological standpoint without dividing it by genre, for example. A discussion about misogyny in country music would be a particularly interesting and refreshing one, since it hasn't been disproportionately discussed to death, but there's no reason any genre can't be discussed that way. HOWEVER, when the person starting a discussion about misogyny in rap has two swastikas in their avatar and is going around the forum leaving subtly racist comments, I'm not going to assume their reasons for thus limiting the conversation's scope are legitimate, intellectual ones. Swastikas = no benefit of the doubt.

[Mama Mia]

Yes, I agree that the original posters general demeanor, avatar, most of her posts etc heavily influence the take on this topic.

I would try to find some of the lyrics to the stuff my nephew blasts, but I really don't know how to google for that. Next time I see him I guess I could ask him the names of the artists, and just hope that doesn't make him think I want him to burn me a playlist :? I think some of them are well known, others are local people.

I don't think people will go commit a murder solely because it's in a song, or a video game, or they admire a certain singer or actor. But I do think there are many teens who are really swayed by the glorification of the violence and gang lifestyle. And some horribly violent and degrading treatment of women.

[Minerva]

Yes, I agree that the original posters general demeanor, avatar, most of her posts etc heavily influence the take on this topic.

I would try to find some of the lyrics to the stuff my nephew blasts, but I really don't know how to google for that. Next time I see him I guess I could ask him the names of the artists, and just hope that doesn't make him think I want him to burn me a playlist :? I think some of them are well known, others are local people.

I don't think people will go commit a murder solely because it's in a song, or a video game, or they admire a certain singer or actor. But I do think there are many teens who are really swayed by the glorification of the violence and gang lifestyle. And some horribly violent and degrading treatment of women.

Yeah, this thread might have gone in a very different direction if it wasn't such an obvious trolling attempt. Then again, I'd rather gripe about misogyny in music in general, since most of the rap I listen to is progressive and therefore devoid of the subject matter that makes my non-rap music so rage-inducing. Not that I don't listen to (politically) progressive rock, punk, etc, but I listen to a lot more mainstream stuff in those genres.

There is evidence that people can become desensitized to violence after being exposed to graphic content, but there is little evidence that graphic content is causally linked to violent behaviour.

[Mama Mia]

Yeah, this thread might have gone in a very different direction if it wasn't such an obvious trolling attempt. Then again, I'd rather gripe about misogyny in music in general, since most of the rap I listen to is progressive and therefore devoid of the subject matter that makes my non-rap music so rage-inducing. Not that I don't listen to (politically) progressive rock, punk, etc, but I listen to a lot more mainstream stuff in those genres.

There is evidence that people can become desensitized to violence after being exposed to

graphic content, but there is little evidence that graphic content is causally linked to violent behaviour.

I think there is a general problem with relying on academic studies to determine whether things happen in real life. Real life thugs don't have a tendency to participate in them for one.

Personal observations don't prove things happen. However the absence of research also isn't proof one way or the other ;)

[Ariel]

I think the main difference between misogynist lyrics in rap vs. non-rap is that the violence in rap is explicitly tied wealth, riches, power, and life being really awesome.

Musicians rap about how gang life and illegal activity has made them successful and rich (when this is rarely the case) which leads to a direct association with violence, misogyny, and money by those who listen to the music at an impressionable age.

This isn't to say that misogynist lyrics in rock, pop, and rnb songs don't have an association with wealth, but it's usually implied (musicians are wealthy thus their lyrics are related to wealth) as opposed to the explicit mentions that occur in rap music.

I think the direct association with wealth and power may make the misogynist messages of those lyrics more effectively conveyed to impressionable people, but it doesn't mean that rap is more misogynist than any other genre. *

*It's 5am, this could all be nonsense and is def arm chair psychology :D

[RosyDaisy]

I would try to find some of the lyrics to the stuff my nephew blasts, but I really don't know how to google for that

Easy. Next time you hear his music, ask for the title. Then enter that with the word lyrics. You'll get thousands of links. There are also programs that will do it for you, but I find them unreliable.

[thoughtful]

Yes, I agree that the original posters general demeanor, avatar, most of her posts etc heavily influence the take on this topic.

I'm glad to hear it -- I was concerned that you thought you were being accused of being racist, which I don't think was the case from anyone here (and I know it wasn't my intent).

I think the main difference between misogynist lyrics in rap vs. non-rap is that the violence in rap is explicitly tied wealth, riches, power, and life being really awesome.

That's an interesting idea.

I fit one stereotype of both old folks and classical musicians -- I can be woefully clueless about popular music that came around after my own teenage years. But even I have noticed that some rappers flaunt the idea that crime pays.

As a musician, one of my pet peeves is the idea that "rap" is all about that, though.

I think of it as being about style and timbre -- to oversimplify a bit, if the vocals are spoken, not sung, that's rap. The words could be about anything -- Minerva has mentioned progressive rap, with positive lyrics, for example.

[RosyDaisy]

Bottom line, offensive and misogynistic (both overt and subtle) lyrics can be found in all genres. The OP knows that and knows what the consensus here is. She just didn't count on the fact that we would catch on and not give her the reaction and attention she wanted.

[formergothardite]

I keep thinking this when I see the subject of this thread, and maybe I should post it:

"Anybody? How about everybody?"

I mean, really -- did it need to be asked? I think it's a safe bet that those of us who generally post on FJ are offended by misogynist rap lyrics. That seems pretty predictable.

If someone without a history of racist crap had started this thread, there probably would have been answers agreeing, and then perhaps a drift to discussion of other styles.

But, as soon as I saw who started the thread, having seen her other pokes and prods around racism, and her fake-innocent "gee, you criticize some people, why not those weird Jews, bad Blacks and over-sensitive Hispanics" crap, it was pretty hard not to assume her slant. I doubt I was alone in that.

So I think she got earlier (and more) "I hate misogynist lyrics in all styles" answers than someone else might have, especially when she kept insisting.

Nobody defended misogyny in rap, nobody said that anyone who ever singles out rap is racist. They just pointed out less-obvious sources, and continued a conversation about misogyny in song lyrics.

I think there is something else at play here. As I have often said, I think one of the main things that sets FJers apart from many people is that we see the harm under the pretty facade. Anybody can see the misogyny in "women were made to be beaten and stabbed" lyrics, just like anyone can see it in the wackier MRA attitudes.

We discuss how we can see misogyny in the "umbrella of protection" and "you shouldn't dress like that" and "what's the use of wond'rin'" * and other non-violent ways it is expressed.

So I don't think it's surprising when any thread here turns from the obviously awful (the Pearls' child-beating) to the less-obvious (the parents who manipulate with guilt, under-educate, etc.). I think the discussion of the contrast (and, sometimes, lack of contrast) between the blatant and the more subtle is one of the most interesting things that goes on here.

* http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/carousel ... nderin.htm

Not really related to the thread, but yesterday a friend of mine who is not fundie at all but is a Christian posted a picture of Gothard's "Umbrella of Protection". :shock: It was getting tons of likes too. So I had to be the party pooper who went into a rant about where that image came from and what was wrong with it. She took it down and sent me a message that she had thought it was "sweet" but once she thought about the points I made she realized it wasn't. It was just shocking to see Gothard's teachings making it out into the real world.

[Minerva]

I think there is a general problem with relying on academic studies to determine whether things happen in real life. Real life thugs don't have a tendency to participate in them for one.

Personal observations don't prove things happen. However the absence of research also isn't proof one way or the other ;)

I agree with you that studies can't necessarily predict whether something could happen. They can only give us an idea of the likelihood of it happening. Which makes them useful for policy-making and for safety protocols, but you can't use them to predict that an occurrence won't turn up within a population of millions.

The issue isn't an absence of research, though. The issue is that the existing research is pretty extensive, and it generally doesn't find a causal relationship between graphic content and violence. I mean, inner-city violence and violence in general are huge problems! There is a significant body of research on them.

As for the bolded, thugs do participate in studies. In the past couple minutes, I've been able to pull up several different studies whose participants were all gang members and many others whose participants included gangs. You can target any demographic you want with a study. One could argue that studies that target the population in general exclude gang members, and that there is something different about gang members that makes them replicate the violence they see in the media. But given the socio-economic factors that lead to gang membership, I think one could safely assume that if this hypothetical personality type existed, it would still be noticeably prevalent within the general population.

With all that said, I'm not cool with graphically violent content. I certainly don't enjoy it, and it has been shown to negatively affect people in various ways. There are problems when young children are exposed to it. I used to think that desensitization to fictional violence made people more apathetic about ending real-life injustice. Now I'm not sure about that.