Fundie Lite Wife Having Baby with Husband with Severe TBI

[treemom]

and this is why I think using children's ages is profoundly inappropriate for this discussion.

someone who has acquired a traumatic brain injury as an adult is *not a child*. they can have had sex in the past; depending on the injury, they likely remember sex.

It is so utterly not like having sex with a 5 year old.

I know people don't intuitively understand IQ (reasonable point, TM), but an average person = 100; mental retardation from 70 (about 2% of the population) and 130 = about top 2%. It might not be as easy to understand as ages, but it's not that hard.

Would you be OK with someone in the bottom 2% of the intelligence range (who used to be about average) having sex with someone of average intelligence?

You might still come to the same answer, but you're much less likely have an ewww sqwick response.

I know, lots of people are approaching this differently. but words matter, whatever our intention when we use them, it's what people respond to that matters. People with ATBI are not children, and we do them a disservice thinking about them as children.

Actually I have the same reaction. But again I was using the ages only so that I could visualize the cognitive abilities. And the risk of a power difference,

I am not thinking of them as children and every time I used the word cognitive abilities. There are reasons child shouldn't have sex outside of consent, just physical harm that doesn't apply to adults.

[Aunt Bee]

I have only one previous post, but am an avid lurker.

I've read the Darlings entire blog and my impression is they are a solid couple. There seems to be a genuine love between the two. She is aware of his limitations, his anger issues and has addressed them for his safety and her own. I don't believe she would do any less for the child. She seems to have a very wide and deep support system, more than many single mothers.

The brain is a very complex system and even though his cognitive age has been put at age 10 (not 5), who knows what is really going on inside, what he thinks and what he can express maybe at different levels.

As for co-sleeping, that is a choice. My child is a very successful 45 year old who never co-slept. I would not deny a baby to a woman who desperately wants one because of that factor.

As for sex, if they both find it satisfying, why would it be denied. They are married, it appears they are going to stay that way.

Just one old lady's opinion.

[treemom]

I found the piece I heard on NPR in regards to nursing home, dementia and sex.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =204580868

[treemom]

I have only one previous post, but am an avid lurker.

I've read the Darlings entire blog and my impression is they are a solid couple. There seems to be a genuine love between the two. She is aware of his limitations, his anger issues and has addressed them for his safety and her own. I don't believe she would do any less for the child. She seems to have a very wide and deep support system, more than many single mothers.

The brain is a very complex system and even though his cognitive age has been put at age 10 (not 5), who knows what is really going on inside, what he thinks and what he can express maybe at different levels.

As for co-sleeping, that is a choice. My child is a very successful 45 year old who never co-slept. I would not deny a baby to a woman who desperately wants one because of that factor.

As for sex, if they both find it satisfying, why would it be denied. They are married, it appears they are going to stay that way.

Just one old lady's opinion.

I was not speaking if this situation when I said 5, I was speaking only in generalities. I agree with much of what you said and I do think this is a drastically different situation than Larissa's for instance.

I also am not ready to string up someone who is in a relationship like this but I might be uncomfortable with the ability to consent. Just because I am uncomfortable with it doesn't mean it is an objective wrong. I would hope (that unlike Larissa) those in this situation are getting good direction from their health care providers.

[lipstickgoalie]

I have only one previous post, but am an avid lurker.

I've read the Darlings entire blog and my impression is they are a solid couple. There seems to be a genuine love between the two. She is aware of his limitations, his anger issues and has addressed them for his safety and her own. I don't believe she would do any less for the child. She seems to have a very wide and deep support system, more than many single mothers.

The brain is a very complex system and even though his cognitive age has been put at age 10 (not 5), who knows what is really going on inside, what he thinks and what he can express maybe at different levels.

As for co-sleeping, that is a choice. My child is a very successful 45 year old who never co-slept. I would not deny a baby to a woman who desperately wants one because of that factor.

As for sex, if they both find it satisfying, why would it be denied. They are married, it appears they are going to stay that way.

Just one old lady's opinion.

I just want to make it clear that I used the example of co-sleeping only as an example of my circumstances. I do not in any way mean to imply that co-sleeping is a determining factor in having a child. Rather my point is that my husband's combativeness in his sleep as a result of either TBI or PTSD or both means that we would never be able to co-sleep with an infant.

Judging by my personal experience and extending that to the Darling's situation I really question her decision to have a child. I just skimmed through parts of the blog and read at least 15 times that she described Cale's behavior as volitile and combative. That is what SHE herself described. Knowing that Cale is combative and volitile in waking hours I think it is a very poor choice to subject a child to that pattern of behavior. As an adult that type of behavior can be frightening and frustrating to deal with; as a child it would be terrifying and potentially traumatizing. Not to mention the fact that unstable emotional environments suck to live in for both children and adults.

I may be wrong. In a way I hope I am. But I do know first hand what it was like to live with my now-husband before he sought out treatment at the VA and his condition is and was miniscule compared to Cale's. There is no way in God's green earth I would even consider a child in her circumstances. I hope it works for them. I don't think it will.

[Mama Mia]

I just want to make it clear that I used the example of co-sleeping only as an example of my circumstances. I do not in any way mean to imply that co-sleeping is a determining factor in having a child. Rather my point is that my husband's combativeness in his sleep as a result of either TBI or PTSD or both means that we would never be able to co-sleep with an infant.

Judging by my personal experience and extending that to the Darling's situation I really question her decision to have a child. I just skimmed through parts of the blog and read at least 15 times that she described Cale's behavior as volitile and combative. That is what SHE herself described. Knowing that Cale is combative and volitile in waking hours I think it is a very poor choice to subject a child to that pattern of behavior. As an adult that type of behavior can be frightening and frustrating to deal with; as a child it would be terrifying and potentially traumatizing. Not to mention the fact that unstable emotional environments suck to live in for both children and adults.

I may be wrong. In a way I hope I am. But I do know first hand what it was like to live with my now-husband before he sought out treatment at the VA and his condition is and was miniscule compared to Cale's. There is no way in God's green earth I would even consider a child in her circumstances. I hope it works for them. I don't think it will.

This is only anecdotal, but the couples that I worked with who had one partner with TBI were eventually able to develop strategies that kept the children safe. Both couples already had children when the injury occurred, and the early adjustment was very difficult ( which is why they were involved with social service agencies ). But after counseling, training, medication adjustments and a bunch of supportive services they ended up able to have reasonably healthy families. One of the couples went on to have two additional children and last i heard the volatile episodes were under control and everyone was doing well. Of course this wont always be the case,but I was pretty amazed with how much better the families were coping after they got all their resources and supports in place.

[HOTW]

As a person who has suffered a TBI, I can understand there are a lot of issues people do not understand in relation. Emotions are very difficult to control- that ability is ripped away by the injury. It is a process to relearn that control and it is often mitigated by the physical issues suffered in a MVA. I am trying to read thru the blog but it is late and it seems very much a cathartic journal on the part of the wife. Many marriages do not survive a TBI as the person suaully comes out with changes to the personality at the very least. A person can have cognitive issues but retain their intelligence. I am trying to read thru the blog to ascertain where his deficits are and I refuse to comment on t he issue of consent until I know where he is in relation to full functioning. I can say that being in your mind after a TBI is Hell on Earth and while in rehab I met some people far worse afeected than I and while many people would be repelled by them for their issues, after spending time with them you become very aware fo th e person inside trying to get out. You learn to not judge a person by their looks and it is easy to do so and also hsort term memory loss is quite often a horrible side effect of TBI and in the section of blog I have been able to filter thru, it is apparent he suffers from it- not fun at all especially if you are aware you are missing something-and people will often make assumptions on your intelligencebecause you have trouble remembering things until a trigger sets off memories.

I do know tat after my TBI the Dr's told us not to have any more children as it would be a hindrance to my getting better but we had closed down that option several years before so that was not an issue. I hope to be able to coment more on this blog as I absorb moreof it. I do know from my family's experience that TBI is NEVER an easy thing and I know I sometimes spent my day hiding away in my room asking my 12 year old to take care fo her sibs as I felt so unable to function I was afraid to be around them-not a very nice place to be mentally.

[twinmama]

Actually I have the same reaction. But again I was using the ages only so that I could visualize the cognitive abilities. And the risk of a power difference,

I am not thinking of them as children and every time I used the word cognitive abilities. There are reasons child shouldn't have sex outside of consent, just physical harm that doesn't apply to adults.

Same here, no I'm not cool with the huge IQ differential. But I think it is probably something that is very specific to each situation (what abilities the person has, what their injury has affected, etc) and making a blanket statement on what is ok and what is not may not be the best idea. But just going by IQ or cognitive age or whatever, 5 years old/bottom 2% and average intelligence is a huge difference and creates that power imbalance IMO.

[Koala]

I am very uncomfortable with the idea of them having a baby...or the kind of relationship that might lead to one. That's just where I am on that.

This post makes me very sad:

www.adarlingkindoflife.com/2013_09_01_archive.html

27 things Cale...

1. I like ice cream.

2. I like video games.

3. I play jokes on people.

4. Reeses Blizzards from DQ is my favorite.

5. I like to look at my wife.

6. I like my birthday.

7. I'm going to be a dad. A cool dad.

8. I help my wife.

9. I like Mt. Dew.

10. Alaska was fun. With the bears. Yeah.

11. I really like hockey.

12. Red Wings are the best.

13. I don't like water. No.

14. I don't like hospitals.

15. I don't like going to the dentist.

16. I like to laugh.

17. I like to make other people laugh.

18. Chicken Nuggets are good from McDonald's only.

19. I like dogs.

20. My cat Scratch is the best cat.

21. I like to hang out with my brother.

22. I like to hang out with friends too. With all people I like.

23. I like my baby. It's small. It's in Kathleen's belly.

24. I like making jokes.

25. I like speaking in Spanish when I can. Some words I know.

26. Maple Bars. Yum. So good.

27. I'm tall. I'm 6'2". That's tall.

Cale's brain injury causes him to think and act as a child would. Over the last year or so we've been very aware of him emerging into more teen-like behavior at times which can be very interesting...and a whole lot of fun! ;)

I've been thinking and watching him lately wondering if him being so child-like is such a bad thing. I know that as his wife I'm supposed to help guide him in life now and help him relearn how to be an adult, but I don't want to focus on "changing" him.

I love that he'll wear a pizza hat to the store. I love that during bible study he'll get down on the ground, work his way to a 5 month old and start talking to her to make her smile. I love that he'll giggle when someone says the word "but" because it sounds like butt. I love that he will have a grape throwing war with our Pastors wife (also a close friend!) on a Sunday morning. I love that he finds such joy in the small things in life, like getting to push the shopping cart.

I love that after me saying Happy Birthday to him this morning, his first words are, "I'm older than you now! Heehee! You're small."

And you know what? I don't think that will ever change for him. Most of us will or have already hit the point that we're excited to not be as old as the next person, but Cale, he'll always love that a few months before me, he's a larger number.

Don't get me wrong, I'm there to help guide when he's inappropriate (if I can hold myself together enough! I usually want to crawl under a table and hide...) or to help when he's out of line. But, his child-like awe over life, I can't steal it. I can't rob him of that treasure.

Happy Birthday to my kid-stuck-in-a-mans-body husband. If only there were more like you...

[fun2beme]

Koala - that post is heart-breaking and disturbing in light of the situation. I think it demonstrates that his TBI is pretty severe. I have a cousin with a TBI who is able to work and function independently, but as others noted, he does have emotional outbursts. But Cale seems so far beyond this. Just... sad. So sad.

[Koala]

Koala - that post is heart-breaking and disturbing in light of the situation. I think it demonstrates that his TBI is pretty severe. I have a cousin with a TBI who is able to work and function independently, but as others noted, he does have emotional outbursts. But Cale seems so far beyond this. Just... sad. So sad.

I agree. I was trying to picture myself in her situation and it's just gut wrenching. I do know that there's no way I would be able to participate in that kind of relationship with someone in his condition. I would certainly stay and take care of him, but I wouldn't be able to have children with him....

[salex]

I am very uncomfortable with the idea of them having a baby...or the kind of relationship that might lead to one. That's just where I am on that.

This post makes me very sad:

http://www.adarlingkindoflife.com/2013_ ... chive.html

"If only there were more like you..." Really? I mean, yes, I know. life gives you lemons, make lemonade and all that, but REALLY? And as sad as I think this is, I get the feeling he is way ahead, capability wise, than Ian, which may be why the last 3 posts on that site has Larissa reporting that she's been crying.

I know a couple of people who had strokes in their 40s. The woman, you wouldn't notice other than, per her husband, she wasn't really able to manage a checkbook well after (and she could before) and I think she lost some of her inhibitions in regards to asking people questions. The other person, a man who worked for my husband, was much worse off-- mild physical disability and never able to return to work-- a certain amount of diminished capacity. He talked about sex after with the guys a lot more than he had before the stroke, but I have no idea what their life was like at home, sexually. His wife and he stayed marriedbut this thread raises some questions to me.

[Buzzard]

All consent/control issues aside, she will be a single mother with two children. Cale will never be of any help to her, besides fetching diapers and perhaps turning lights on/off. I dont know that he understands what it means to be a 'father' or that he is having a baby that is HIS baby. His understanding of the baby seems limited to what my 2 year old niece understands about her gestating sibling. Its like he is getting a puppy - I truly hope that he "likes" the baby.

From looking at the blog she has wanted children for some time. I dont think that having your husband crash into a tree removes a woman's right to have a baby should she want and accept the challenges of her circumstances. I question her motives and how rational her decision is, but having a child is her right.

The consent issue, to me, is sticky. Lets assume that Cale understands the mechanics of sex and wants to do it (likely because its "fun"). Lets also assume that he initiates sex. Does he understand the cause/effect of his choice? I think not. Has he been given the choice or option of birth control? Does he understand that he HAS to option to use some and NOT have the child? In the same sense that she has a right to have a child HE has a right to not.

[rward]

Am I the only one who is way more concerned about a child with a father who "explodes" at random and says horrible, hurtful things when he does?

[lipstickgoalie]

Am I the only one who is way more concerned about a child with a father who "explodes" at random and says horrible, hurtful things when he does?

Nope. That is my primary concern about this situation.

I have written about 5 uber-snarky comebacks about it and deleted them all because they just seemed to be crossing the line. I am sure I will come to a point where I will no longer hold my tongue but for right now I will say that for personal reasons articulated earlier I find her the most distasteful of all the people we discuss. And that includes Steve Maxwell and Lauren. That's saying something.

[treemom]

Am I the only one who is way more concerned about a child with a father who "explodes" at random and says horrible, hurtful things when he does?

I am concerned, but unfortunately that isn't unique to TBI.

[Koala]

Am I the only one who is way more concerned about a child with a father who "explodes" at random and says horrible, hurtful things when he does?

No, I am concerned as well. If I were being completely honest I think this is very selfish on her part. She is choosing to stay, the child doesn't get a vote. Cale requires so much of her attention now. I can't imagine how much could possibly be left for a child.

And then there's the whole thing about Cale thinking as a child. If he thinks as a child, how on earth can he consent to having one?

[rward]

No, I am concerned as well. If I were being completely honest I think this is very selfish on her part. She is choosing to stay, the child doesn't get a vote. Cale requires so much of her attention now. I can't imagine how much could possibly be left for a child.

And then there's the whole thing about Cale thinking as a child. If he thinks as a child, how on earth can he consent to having one?

It's incredibly selfish! She's throwing a child into the mix with an explosive, seriously brain damaged man who needs constant watching and care. That child, at a minimum, will not get enough attention and will suffer witnessing his father's explosive rages. Yeah, the hand she was dealt sucks, but she chose to continue as a wife to her husband and bringing a child into this situation is selfish. If having children was so important, she should have left his husband and found somebody else to be the father. Somebody who can control their anger, at a minimum.

[France Nolan]

No, I am concerned as well. If I were being completely honest I think this is very selfish on her part. She is choosing to stay, the child doesn't get a vote. Cale requires so much of her attention now. I can't imagine how much could possibly be left for a child.

And then there's the whole thing about Cale thinking as a child. If he thinks as a child, how on earth can he consent to having one?

Agreed on all accounts.

[duplessis3]

It doesn't sound like there is a real way for him to be / a parent or h we than in the physical sense.

[lipstickgoalie]

Resurrecting this. "They" have decided to have a home birth. Normally I feel that you should be able to do whatever you want to do but this seems like a VERY bad idea, mainly because Cale seems to be melting down about the situation regularly. Kathleen said as much, that Cale is "freaked out" by the situation. I can't imagine trying to juggle a husband who is having a very hard time controlling his emotions while being in active labor. What is the plan B if he completely loses it?

I find this dingbat so offensive on so many levels.

adarlingkindoflife.com/2014/04/prayers-please.html#comment-form

[persuas1ve]

The post about Cale praying was heartbreaking. I can't imagine how hard the transition into parenthood will

be for them.

[Toothfairy]

So sad..

[lipstickgoalie]

I don't find it heartbreaking. Except maybe for the baby. Kathleen seemed to ignore all rational thought when she decided to get pregnant. I don't think for a minute that Cale understands what being a father means and I don't think there is any way he could actually consent to be a parent. I mostly find the situation infuriating and I think that Kathleen is incredibly selfish.

At this point my only hope is that Cale does not harm or kill the baby. I am really afraid this will not end well.

[ViolaSebastian]

I read the post before her pregnancy announcement, in which she says that she decided to get a Yorkie puppy. Evidently the puppy lasted for four days and Cale, her husband, hated it. I'm very concerned about that baby.