Fundie Lite Wife Having Baby with Husband with Severe TBI

[treemom]

I agree IF the situation started out as caregiver / cognitively impaired patient. It's when they are already a couple when the impairment takes place that I don't think people should be expected to change their sexual relationship. It's probably difficult enough to maintain a sexual relationship in that situation, without having outsiders question it.

I find this boggling that basically if you had sex with the person before you were impaired there is suddenly no power differential.

[treemom]

And again, I am not saying that is the case here. Just discussing it in generalities.

At what point would it be inappropriate?

[Mama Mia]

And again, I am not saying that is the case here. Just discussing it in generalities.

At what point would it be inappropriate?

Hmmm...interesting question. I think, off the top of my head, that if they were unable to in some way communicate consent or desire it would be inappropriate. Or, of course, if they were communicating that they did not consent, but that applies to anyone.

I'm not saying there isn't a power differential that exists once the injury has occurred, I just don't see it as being all that relevant to consent in that case. I think it is very different than if they were single. They have an injury that limits their capacity in many areas, but they still have the original emotional attachment and history and bond that they had prior to the injury. As far as I know this mans memory wasn't completely wiped out. He still has sexual feelings seems to be able to communicate his likes and dislikes, which means he can say if he wants to have sex or not. As couples age they are quite likely to get to a point where one has more power due to mental or physical incapacity, should they stop having sex because of this?

[treemom]

Hmmm...interesting question. I think, off the top of my head, that if they were unable to in some way communicate consent or desire it would be inappropriate. Or, of course, if they were communicating that they did not consent, but that applies to anyone.

I'm not saying there isn't a power differential that exists once the injury has occurred, I just don't see it as being all that relevant to consent in that case. I think it is very different than if they were single. They have an injury that limits their capacity in many areas, but they still have the original emotional attachment and history and bond that they had prior to the injury. As far as I know this mans memory wasn't completely wiped out. He still has sexual feelings seems to be able to communicate his likes and dislikes, which means he can say if he wants to have sex or not. As couples age they are quite likely to get to a point where one has more power due to mental or physical incapacity, should they stop having sex because of this?

So cognitive ability of a 10 year old is ok?

(And again, I have mostly spoken in generalities. I just disagree with the premise that this is ok simply because they were already married)

[Mama Mia]

So cognitive ability of a 10 year old is ok?

(And again, I have mostly spoken in generalities. I just disagree with the premise that this is ok simply because they were already married)

Yes. I think a sexually mature adult who unfortunately has the cognitive abilities of a ten year old should be able to consent to sex. Because I think it is dehumanizing if they can't. And because I think placing so much emphasis on their intellectual capability takes away from the importance of the rest of their life. I just really think its insulting to these people to think they should lose that portion of their life, with someone they already made a commitment to, because they can no longer function adequately in another area.

[theologygeek]

The only person who knows if this is rape or not is the man's doctor. It's rape if he doesn't have the mental capacity to give his consent. http://rainn.org/get-information/types- ... as-it-rape None of us knows the answer to that. Hopefully the wife talked this over with the doctor first.

[treemom]

Yes. I think a sexually mature adult who unfortunately has the cognitive abilities of a ten year old should be able to consent to sex. Because I think it is dehumanizing if they can't. And because I think placing so much emphasis on their intellectual capability takes away from the importance of the rest of their life. I just really think its insulting to these people to think they should lose that portion of their life, with someone they already made a commitment to, because they can no longer function adequately in another area.

So what about a 5 year old?

[FreeJosie]

Did anyone else read this as Fundie Lite Wife Having Baby with Husband with Severe TB!? I was thinking, "well that's a novel situation, more like the 19th century these guys want us going back to, wonder what's up with that?"

As for the real situation, I don't know what to think except to wonder about issues of consent. I don't feel comfortable saying anything without knowing more, and knowing more would be an invasion of their privacy.

Yep, I read it as TB too! I thought "Wow, tuberculosis is pretty rare these days..."

[Mama Mia]

So what about a 5 year old?

If he is physically desiring sex, capable of sex and can communicate that desire - and communicate when he does not wish to have sex, and that wish is respected, than yes, I think he can consent.

So the bottom line would be at what mental age would he be unable to adequately communicate those things....I think that if he is to the point that he can't communicate wants or needs in most areas of life (food, feeling hungry, tired, ill, etc. ). that it would apply to sex as well.

If you are getting down to extremely low functioning , as in toddler / 5 year old levels than I think there would need to be much more concern regarding consent to pregnancy. As a young child couldn't really conceptualize feeling ill for months, or labor.

But I think it's important to keep in mind that even though intellectual functioning may be severely impaired and it is easy to use children as an example, that he isn't an actual child. There aren't the same physical concerns as with a child. There isn't the same need to protect a child from relationship choices that will impact their career and educational options as they mature. It isn't waiting until they are old enough to be emotionally involved. It's just different.

[France Nolan]

On the comments page:

Reply

Sarah Morrison10/26/13, 12:13 PM

I am sorry to be the one to tell you this, but there is an athirst, pro-homosexual, pro-abortion website out there dedicated to litterally tearing apart good, wholesome, Godly folks like you guys. I just noticed that you have come under attack there.

Normally I would ignore it, but these women have actually gone as far as to stalk out blog owners online (including their Facebook pages) and use that information to make false reports to CPS. I am praying for you and your family and hope that these monsters don't attack you too terribly.

The only advise I can offer is to make the blog private and be sure not to friend anyone you don't know on Facebook. As I said, this group can be dangerous and they are malicious and nasty women. Blessings and apologies.

Reply

Replies

Sarah Morrison10/26/13, 12:24 PM

It seems as though I forgot to include the link:

http://freejinger.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=19767

Frankly I'm annoyed we are all tarnished with the same brush. Some of us are Christian. Buddhist. Pro-life. I consider myself a good person. I am kind. I am a nurse & do volunteer work. I believe in marriage equity. I believe in love. I don't 'snark' on people. I am not mean about people we discuss here. I don't say anything here I would be upset about saying at a dinner table or at work.

90% of people on FJ are lovely, kind people. Just like anywhere else.

That's all.

I think this might be one of my favorite descriptions of FJ. I'm also flattered that she assumed we have so much power.

[treemom]

If he is physically desiring sex, capable of sex and can communicate that desire - and communicate when he does not wish to have sex, and that wish is respected, than yes, I think he can consent.

So the bottom line would be at what mental age would he be unable to adequately communicate those things....I think that if he is to the point that he can't communicate wants or needs in most areas of life (food, feeling hungry, tired, ill, etc. ). that it would apply to sex as well.

If you are getting down to extremely low functioning , as in toddler / 5 year old levels than I think there would need to be much more concern regarding consent to pregnancy. As a young child couldn't really conceptualize feeling ill for months, or labor.

But I think it's important to keep in mind that even though intellectual functioning may be severely impaired and it is easy to use children as an example, that he isn't an actual child. There aren't the same physical concerns as with a child. There isn't the same need to protect a child from relationship choices that will impact their career and educational options as they mature. It isn't waiting until they are old enough to be emotionally involved. It's just different.

So based on what you just described someone could have the cognitive level of a two year old and you feel that person is able to fully consent to sex.

But only if the impairment happened in adulthood. And only if they had previously had sex with the person they are consenting to?

[singsingsing]

I don't think that someone with the cognitive functioning of a ten-year-old can consent to sex, regardless of whether he or she is married and consented before the brain injury. It's tragic, yes, but there has to be a line somewhere. A sexually mature fifteen-year-old cannot consent to sex with their forty-year-old guardian, even if they express desire for it.

[treemom]

I don't know what the line should be, but the reason I picked 10 was because I thought surely she will agree a person with the cognitive level of a ten year old can't truly consent to sex with a caregiver. Then a five year old?

But what really boggles me is that consent depends on whether or not the person was impaired as an adult and whether or not there as a previous sexual relationship with a person.

I believe that sex can (can not must) carry with it emotional risks as well as physical ones. And I do not believe those risks of pregnancy, disease, disorder, power, etc can be fully understood by the cognitive level of a 10 year old.

I am not in the position to decide whether or not this is the case in any specific situation, but I hope that the professionals are.

[MajorMajor]

I think this might be one of my favorite descriptions of FJ. I'm also flattered that she assumed we have so much power.

I just wonder what a godly person like the commenter is doing regularly reading an atheist, pro homosexual, pro abortion forum...

[eohiken]

10 years ago or so, there was a Canadian made reality pregnancy and birth show, I think it was called "Birth Stories"?

One of the couples featured was a man and his cognitively disabled wife having their second child. Same situation, car accident, brain injury. It sounds like that woman was more capable than this fellow, she was a SAHM while her husband worked, so she could handle the responsibility of self care and care of small children. Still she was very childlike herself. Difficult situation, indeed.

[flyawaystray]

I've skimmed through the thread, but how do we know they actually had sex? There is sperm extraction and other alternatives.

[FakePigtails]

I've skimmed through the thread, but how do we know they actually had sex? There is sperm extraction and other alternatives.

A post from a conference they went to for couples dealing with a TBI included a photo of slides from a "Sex after a TBI" presentation with a comment about that one being the man's favorite.

[flyawaystray]

Ah, okay. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

I don't know if I could have a child with a severely impaired husband. Taking care of someone 24/7 would be more than enough work. Add a child into the mix and it's even more difficult. She could have adopted an older child or maybe have fostered one if she was really desperate for a kid.

[Savoring Samsara]

On the comments page:

Reply

Sarah Morrison10/26/13, 12:13 PM

I am sorry to be the one to tell you this, but there is an athirst, pro-homosexual, pro-abortion website out there dedicated to litterally tearing apart good, wholesome, Godly folks like you guys. I just noticed that you have come under attack there.

Normally I would ignore it, but these women have actually gone as far as to stalk out blog owners online (including their Facebook pages) and use that information to make false reports to CPS. I am praying for you and your family and hope that these monsters don't attack you too terribly.

The only advise I can offer is to make the blog private and be sure not to friend anyone you don't know on Facebook. As I said, this group can be dangerous and they are malicious and nasty women. Blessings and apologies.

Reply

Replies

Sarah Morrison10/26/13, 12:24 PM

It seems as though I forgot to include the link:

http://freejinger.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=19767

Frankly I'm annoyed we are all tarnished with the same brush. Some of us are Christian. Buddhist. Pro-life. I consider myself a good person. I am kind. I am a nurse & do volunteer work. I believe in marriage equity. I believe in love. I don't 'snark' on people. I am not mean about people we discuss here. I don't say anything here I would be upset about saying at a dinner table or at work.

90% of people on FJ are lovely, kind people. Just like anywhere else.

That's all.

Guessing this blog commenter was HomegirlRuby again. Fabulous.

[Ariel]

I know y'all have been focusing on consent-whichin this case is a fuzzy area of squick for me.

However, I just keep wondering what kind of person would want to have a sexual relationship with someone who functions at a sugnificantly lower level. I just can't imagine it being physically or emotionally satisfying. In fact, I imagine it would be really sad in her case because she experienced an adult sexual relationship with him prior.

[jaelh]

Can I sak - what do people believe *should* be the line

treemom; I'll rephrase your test - it's not about *age* and it's ... emotionally manipulative to phrase it that way (i'm not saying you're interesting to be manipulative using age, but it creates a visceral response that's a) not relevant to the situation and hand and b) makes it difficult to discuss this dispassionately).

What is one person has an IQ of 130 and someone has an IQ of 100?

What about 110 and 60?

What about 120 and 60?

What about 150 and 100?

What degree of difference in mental capacity is acceptable for you, and when does it go too far?

If you're OK with two mentally disabled adults having a relationship (say - 70 and 65), are you OK with someone with IQ of 70 and someone with an IQ of 100 being together? do you feel the same revulsion when thinking about someone of say.. lower than average intelligence with someone whose functioning is... off the charts, say respective IQ of 90 and 170, when the less intelligent partner earns all the couples money; makes the major decisions for the house and can run intellectual rings around their partner?

What if one parter was very impaired (say, a 40) and their partner was of very below average intelligence - an IQ of say, 80? Ok, or not?

I know IQ is a (very) imperfect measure, but age is... so far from being the correct analogy here. Use any measure you like. Describe what the different levels of intelligence look like (higher order thinking vs. inability to count, if you prefer) but age examples are so inappropriate.

[France Nolan]

The whole situation leaves me feeling sad. I'm sure this is not a life Kathleen or Cale would have chosen, and what happened was not their fault. I can't imagine being so young, deeply in love, and being dealt such a devastating blow. I don't know what choices I would make if I were in her position. She chose to stay with her husband and become his primary caregiver. I'm not quite sure how they are supporting themselves financially; there's probably government assistance, which I don't begrudge them.

Like many fundie/fundie lite women, Kathleen seems to be under enormous pressure to be happy and grateful. Everything comes back to God, and God's plan.

[France Nolan]

Can I sak - what do people believe *should* be the line

treemom; I'll rephrase your test - it's not about *age* and it's ... emotionally manipulative to phrase it that way (i'm not saying you're interesting to be manipulative using age, but it creates a visceral response that's a) not relevant to the situation and hand and b) makes it difficult to discuss this dispassionately).

What is one person has an IQ of 130 and someone has an IQ of 100?

What about 110 and 60?

What about 120 and 60?

What about 150 and 100?

What degree of difference in mental capacity is acceptable for you, and when does it go too far?

If you're OK with two mentally disabled adults having a relationship (say - 70 and 65), are you OK with someone with IQ of 70 and someone with an IQ of 100 being together? do you feel the same revulsion when thinking about someone of say.. lower than average intelligence with someone whose functioning is... off the charts, say respective IQ of 90 and 170, when the less intelligent partner earns all the couples money; makes the major decisions for the house and can run intellectual rings around their partner?

What if one parter was very impaired (say, a 40) and their partner was of very below average intelligence - an IQ of say, 80? Ok, or not?

I know IQ is a (very) imperfect measure, but age is... so far from being the correct analogy here. Use any measure you like. Describe what the different levels of intelligence look like (higher order thinking vs. inability to count, if you prefer) but age examples are so inappropriate.

I can't answer for treemom, but if we're using IQ scores as the measuring stick then no, I'm not okay with someone who has an intellectual disability (Full scale IQ of 70 or below) engaging in a sexual relationship with someone with an average IQ (usually cited at about 100). Now, there's admittedly a big grey area in between. I don't know I'd feel if one partner had an IQ of 70 and the other partner had an IQ that was borderline intellectually disabled, like 80.

As for the difference between the people with a 100 and a 150 IQ, while I don't know if it would work well, the partner with the lower IQ is not intellectually disabled.

[treemom]

Honestly, an IQ number isn't intuitive, so I can't answer your question. However you can visualize the cognitive abilities of a five year old vs a 15 year old. I don't really even know what the numbers of an IQ test mean in terms of cognitive ability. (Nor to be honest do I care. Because it has no relevance to me)

I am not envisioning people in the bodies of say a five year old, so no it is not emotionally manipulative.

[littlemommy]

When I was just a Littleperson instead of a Littlemommy I was a social worker and worked with people cognitive impairments including brain injuries. It was really tough when physical relationships came up (we ran an assisted living facility). In the end if the person was their own legal guardian then they could consent to sex, if someone else was their guardian then they needed that person's permission (which never happened where I worked). Of course you don't lose self guardianship automatically if you have a brain injury or are born disabled, it has to be taken from you legally. That's not always easy and many families would let the matter go knowing they would just "take care" of the person unofficially, if that makes sense.

I don't know how I feel about the issue; I could barely figure out how I felt about it then. I tried to counsel my clients to make good, safe choices and that was usually all I could do. I saw some bad things happen as a result, some neutral things, and every once in awhile things even went well.