this woman makes me sick - Vicki Courtney

[Joykins]

Sorry if this has already been done...I'm new and this blog post is a few months old.

vickicourtney.com/2011/04/a-godly-sorrow-and-a-celebration-of-new-life/

An engaged couple got pregnant.

Ryan and Casey are deeply sorrowful for their sin and are facing the natural consequences that can result when choices are made outside of God’s will. Their wedding ceremony will be scaled down in size and the date will be moved up. They have had to make a long list of difficult phone calls to their attendants, relatives, and close friends. They have had to break the news to mentors, Sunday school teachers, and youth ministers who have at times in the past, pointed to them as leaders and role models. And they recently met with Casey’s long-time pastor and humbly asked if he would still be willing to perform their wedding ceremony. Keith and I are grateful for the grace Casey’s pastor extended to them along with a firm reminder to remain pure for the duration of their engagement. He also reminded Ryan of his position as the spiritual leader in the home and held him to a higher level of accountability over the sin, a position that both Keith and I fully endorse. In addition to the awkwardness and embarrassment of having to share the news with people they know and love, Ryan and Casey will begin their marriage on a very lean budget that has little room for error as they juggle student loans and drive cars with over 150k miles. But perhaps the biggest penalty for their actions will be the precious time they will forfeit as newlyweds as they are thrust suddenly into parenthood.

That last statement is true...parenthood will cut into their couple time as newlyweds. But I am just sickened and disgusted that this is regarded as such a big sin (something I don't think is wrong at all, too) that the couple has to do the virtual walk of shame in front of all their family/friends/community...the pastor "extended grace" to still marry them??? WTF??? Seems like their real "sin" was getting pregnant, not having sex, in respect to the attitudes displayed.

I have no intention of pretending this didn’t happen, nor will this situation become a hush-hush topic in my ministry. On the contrary, it will become a part of my ministry.

So, she'll be throwing it in their faces and publicizing it for years as "ministry." Nice.

[Patsy]

Who the fuck does she think she is? She believes all have sinned, but she's going to boohoo over the fact that their particular sin shows up? If anything, she should be sorrowful TO them - "sorry I can see your sin when everyone else's depravity is hidden".

Many people in the church, particularly the very young, think that by marrying, they will avoid sinning by eliminating the problem of having sex outside of marriage. What they do not appreciate is that having sex outside of marriage is not the worst or even the only sin you can commit against yourself or against someone else. Screaming hatefully at someone in frustration, acting out arbitrary acts of utter selfishness and wishing your partner would fall under a bus on their way home from work are probably just a few sins one can commit well within the parameters of perfectly legal, God-ordained marriage.

http://www.blogher.com/why-christians-a ... s-marriage

[Lillybee]

What would be wrong with a tasteful, quiet, quick wedding without making the couple walk the walk of shame? Oops, I forgot, they are fundies. I was surprised that the couple had enough time alone to make a baby.

[Joykins]

Even from a religious standpoint, I don't really see the sin in having sex with your fiance. This is someone you love and have committed yourself to, even if you haven't spoken the vows in church yet. I think what that young man did wrong was not wearing a condom, to protect his fiancee's standing in the community and their wedding plans.

I can see how it could embarrass his mom because her career seems to be some kind of sexual purity "ministry" but it is not cool for her to pass her embarrassment on to them.

I mean, it's not like they went out and blew the football team or something like that.

[lilwriter85]

Sorry if this has already been done...I'm new and this blog post is a few months old.

vickicourtney.com/2011/04/a-godly-sorrow-and-a-celebration-of-new-life/

An engaged couple got pregnant.

That last statement is true...parenthood will cut into their couple time as newlyweds. But I am just sickened and disgusted that this is regarded as such a big sin (something I don't think is wrong at all, too) that the couple has to do the virtual walk of shame in front of all their family/friends/community...the pastor "extended grace" to still marry them??? WTF??? Seems like their real "sin" was getting pregnant, not having sex, in respect to the attitudes displayed.

So, she'll be throwing it in their faces and publicizing it for years as "ministry." Nice.

I think that is very cruel of her and feel sorry for this couple because they will unfairly shamed for the rest of their lives.

[jenny_islander]

Or one day they'll move without a forwarding address, block her on Skype, and quit answering her e-mails. And she'll say that their earlier sin left a door open for more sin and that's why they don't want to talk to her anymore--their ears are itching or their hearts are cold or something. Meanwhile they'll take a few months to decompress from the constant tensing for the next lecture and look around for a church that isn't full of people picking the specks out of each other's eyes.

[bananacat]

This will likely make those people leave the church. Something similar happened to my mom when she was a Catholic, and is largely the reason she is no longer Catholic. She got pregnant when she was 28 and had a stable job, but she was unmarried. Her mother died before my older brother was born. My mom went to confession before the funeral service and did whatever the priest told her she needed to do to be forgiven. So everything was reset in the eyes of God and the church. But the priest still refused to let her take communion at her own mother's funeral because "it wouldn't look right" for her to be pregnant with no wedding ring. Even though she had already confessed and been forgiven. Even though a man in a similar place would not be denied communion. Even though she had had premarital sex plenty of times before and was allowed to take communion.

This shaming didn't make her turn celibate. It made her leave the church. She is now a Methodist and pretty happy with her church. This shamed couple will hopefully do the same thing. I hope they realize that there are better people out there and I hope that they find a less judgmental church where they can thrive.

[alphaeta08]

This just makes no sense. Even if you believe premarital sex is a sin, these people are doing the "right thing" in this woman's opinion, right? What's the point of harping on it more, what the hell else can they do? Should the woman have had an abortion? I'm sure this blogger would've loved that, but then, she wouldn't have known about it and would've assumed the marriage was another win for "purity." What a tool. :roll:

[ADoyle90815]

Things like this are what cause people to leave a church, as cruelty is enough to get someone to quit and go to a church that accepts them the way they are.

[Purple]

I didn't understand the bit about the budget and the loans - if they're QF, they're expected to start popping them out immediately anyway, right? Either they can afford kids right away, or they can't, in which case (according to their own beliefs) the man isn't 'ready for marriage'. Moving the timetable up by a few months shouldn't majorly impact their finances. If the wedding is being 'scaled down', that should save them money!

I always thought the whole point of moving up a wedding due to pregnancy was to avoid this sort of public shaming. If they have to do the walk of shame anyway, why is getting married ASAP such a high priority? I can understand it being the couple's choice, of course, but whether they get married at 2 months or 9 months gestation isn't going to impact the baby one bit, so it's not exactly an emergency.

I hope this couple thinks carefully about how much time the child is allowed to spend with this set of grandparents, and under what circumstances. I can already see Grandma seizing any opportunity to hold herself up as a paragon of God's grace by being 'Christian' enough to forgive the kid for the sin it's committed by existing, and I have no doubt she'll remind the kid of that fact every chance she gets.

[Cordial]

Ugh. I was never fundie or even close, but I had some close fundie-leaning friends when I happened to get pregnant 6 months into my 10-month engagement. And yep, the reaction I got from many of them was a big reason I started consciously moving away from that version of Christianity. The outright lectures were bad, but even worse in my experience were the forced too-sweet smiles accompanying comments like, "Well, every child is a blessing from God" (obvious subtext: even sin babies, ya floozy).

It did suck to have less than 6 months of marriage before being thrown into parenthood, but it would've sucked way worse if my parents had decided it was their right to incorporate my story into their "ministry." Jeez.

[fundiefan]

For all that everyone has said about this, one of the glaring red lights in the situation is that mama needs to get a life of her own and leave her son's life to him. She also needs to STFU about the private and personal life of her adult son and his fiance, who is of no relation to her. She did the engagement ring shopping by 'calling in' her old 'contacts' (yeah, whatever you say, super-mama). It creeps me out in so many ways when a parent is so involved in the lives and relationships of their adult children. There is something very, very wrong with it.

I swear, fundies do me a service all the time without even knowing it. The fact that I find myself being grateful and thankful for the way I was raised on a pretty regular basis is kind of astounding. It's not something I typically think when thinking of my upbringing. But, at least, no matter what, my mother did not shame me publicly. At least she has not spent my entire adult life throwing past indiscretions, real or perceived, in my face. At least her hands were not in or on my marriage. And thank the gods there was no such thing as a blog when I was that kid's age and that now my mom doesn't know what they are and wouldn't bother.

[Koala]

She is a disgusting excuse for a mother, and I agree that they should turn their backs on her and never look back.

[darareaksmey]

Many people in the church, particularly the very young, think that by marrying, they will avoid sinning by eliminating the problem of having sex outside of marriage. What they do not appreciate is that having sex outside of marriage is not the worst or even the only sin you can commit against yourself or against someone else. Screaming hatefully at someone in frustration, acting out arbitrary acts of utter selfishness and wishing your partner would fall under a bus on their way home from work are probably just a few sins one can commit well within the parameters of perfectly legal, God-ordained marriage.

http://www.blogher.com/why-christians-a ... s-marriage

[Beeks]

Are these people QF? Because I got pregnant on the honeymoon and trust me, we still forfeited couple-time by not having ANY time married w/out me being pregnant or having a baby. 9 months after the wedding isn't that big a difference.

That said, babies are not a punishment. What a bitch.

[Austin]

This is just so silly and stupid, beyond the fact that the shaming is really so over the top. Now they have been exhorted to stay pure until marriage? Uh, I think that horse is out of the barn, Pastor Brainiac. Good heavens, this woman acts like the world is going to stop spinning. And making all these calls? Why should have to do that? People will figure it out soon enough if they're interested.

This isn't about this young couple and any concern for them at all. This is about this woman blogger and the fact that her adult child did something that made HER look bad. Because, ya know, if you raise your kids according to this certain formula, they always turn out perfectly. So she blogs about it, hoping to get out in front of any criticism or shame that may be directed towards her and make sure it's all directed at the young couple instead. She sucks.

She makes me sick. What kind of mother behaves this way?

[fundiefan]

In a way I am sure she is reveling in the situation. She did say that the it would now become part of HER ministry. Such a lucky, lucky woman. A topic she can harp on forever, never letting her son forget she is shamed by him and is now a major part of her so-called ministry.

As an adult, he needs to tell her to shut up and leave his private life out of her self-promotion.

[darareaksmey]

Yes. If I were one of the unlucky couple, I would save my money and as soon as humanly possible I'd move so far away it'd take her $5 to send me a postcard. Young marrieds with kids have enough stress without having to suffer the disdain of some old in-law. I'd tell her to shove her support--personal and financial--straight up her ass and I'd make sure the grandchild never was around to be Exhibit A for her sermons.

[mirele]

I posted this on the blog, it will probably not see the light of day:

You’re doing a wonderful job…at pushing this couple and their future children out of your life. Making their problems part of your ministry is disgusting, but par for the course for someone who has made religion her profession. Your attitude does not reflect 1 Peter 4:8: Love covers a multitude of sins, instead, your attitude is to rub their sin into the faces of this couple, over and over again.

(For the record, 51, single, never married, no kids, never pregnant, not a virgin. I can make you reason #1,289,407,382 as to why I’ll never step foot in a church again. Self-righteousness is surely not pretty and you’ve got it by the ton.)

[browngrl]

F

I swear, fundies do me a service all the time without even knowing it. The fact that I find myself being grateful and thankful for the way I was raised on a pretty regular basis is kind of astounding. It's not something I typically think when thinking of my upbringing. But, at least, no matter what, my mother did not shame me publicly. At least she has not spent my entire adult life throwing past indiscretions, real or perceived, in my face. At least her hands were not in or on my marriage. And thank the gods there was no such thing as a blog when I was that kid's age and that now my mom doesn't know what they are and wouldn't bother.

YES! When ever I am tired and frustrated with things in my life I just read a few fundie blogs and in a very short time I am left profoundly grateful that my life is so different from the fundie lifestyle.

[formergothardite]

So children are a blessing unless they are created outside of marriage and then they are a curse that will be used to shame the parents for all of eternity. They need to cut this woman out of their lives because she is going to hold this over their heads every time she sees them. Wouldn't it be lovely if all of her sins and failings were so obvious as a pregnant stomach and then the people in her life used them in their "ministries"?

[fundifugee]

This happened to my brother, except he was not even engaged. He bought into the whole "you WILL NOT have sex" sex education in our fundy upbringing so of course he didn't carry a condom and 'it happened'. He and his girlfriend were 18. They were trotted up in front of the whole church to apologize; apologized individually to each of us family members, and had pastoral counselling. I was well on my way out of the house by then (just biding my time until I had the wherewithal to take off), and my parents were seriously unimpressed with my response-- 'well, these things happen; I'll help you raise him/her.' Instead they were forced to give the baby up for adoption. My brother went on happily with his life, but split with his girlfriend. It seemed to me that once the baby was out and sold off to good christians via a private christian adoption agency, nobody wanted anything more to do with her, the hussy. She was so grieved by the whole experience that she within months of giving up her baby ended up in an abusive, controlling relationship with a much older man and promptly had two more kids with him. We lost touch when they moved to some trailer park way out in rural Georgia, but I really hope she is ok.

ETA: And, I don't know if there is such a thing as divine reckoning, but I hope my parents and brother, all still upstanding religious folks, know that this train wreck of a life is on THEIR consciences.

[fundiefan]

So children are a blessing unless they are created outside of marriage and then they are a curse that will be used to shame the parents for all of eternity. They need to cut this woman out of their lives because she is going to hold this over their heads every time she sees them. Wouldn't it be lovely if all of her sins and failings were so obvious as a pregnant stomach and then the people in her life used them in their "ministries"?

The blessing argument is that god wants that child to be born, he gives that child to you by his own choice and you have no control (or shouldn't by the thinking of some). God knows that child even before birth and gave it to you. But, the way we are made, human action is absolutely necessary for a life to be created. So, they are pregnant and that is shame. God wanted that child, so god made them have sex in order to do their part to bring his creation onto the planet. God is apparently the one who opens and closes the womb, but no matter his power or decision, the womb cannot open without intentional acts from human beings.

Whoever their baby is, god created him/her and chose to give him/her to the young couple. But, he couldn't do that without their cooperation. It is god's will, not shame.

[Jessica]

I didn't understand the bit about the budget and the loans - if they're QF, they're expected to start popping them out immediately anyway, right? Either they can afford kids right away, or they can't, in which case (according to their own beliefs) the man isn't 'ready for marriage'. Moving the timetable up by a few months shouldn't majorly impact their finances. If the wedding is being 'scaled down', that should save them money!

That was my thought too but you said it better than I attempted to.

[Joykins]

The blessing argument is that god wants that child to be born, he gives that child to you by his own choice and you have no control (or shouldn't by the thinking of some). God knows that child even before birth and gave it to you. But, the way we are made, human action is absolutely necessary for a life to be created. So, they are pregnant and that is shame. God wanted that child, so god made them have sex in order to do their part to bring his creation onto the planet. God is apparently the one who opens and closes the womb, but no matter his power or decision, the womb cannot open without intentional acts from human beings.

Whoever their baby is, god created him/her and chose to give him/her to the young couple. But, he couldn't do that without their cooperation. It is god's will, not shame.

This sort of thinking makes my head spin. Also this: so maybe whatever sex you had was a "sin" but how COULD you wish you never had it if it gave you your child? I would never apologize for anything that gave me my children.