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Duggars' Handwriting


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As a schoolkid, my handwriting was probably the neatest in the class, without even really trying. However, from about 13 or 14 years of age, we started using the internet more and just got used to sending emails. Now I hardly ever write actual letters and when I do, people complain they have trouble reading it! I still write fast but am no longer used to doing it - except for my lyrics, and this I tend to do in caps. Bad habit, but it's the only way the reader can understand it.

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I had a similar experience with the teachers in my grade school ( which, ironically, was also a Christian school ). Hold the paper this way, hold your pencil this way...I'm right-handed but I hold my pencil differently than others probably because of autism-related motor issues. The teachers really didn't get that. They always insisted that I hold it the "right way", even though the "right way" was uncomfortable and made it harder and slower to write. And they always wondered why I took so long to write...Luckily, my family was not so insistant on how I held a pencil as long as my handwriting was readable.

Also, what's up with the Bible verses with some of the Duggars' signatures?

Oh, those are most likely their "life verses." They were all but required when I was growing up.

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ok im looking in the book and first thing is that none of the duggar signatures have a paraph?(tell me if you understand this word because i had to translate it in google and i dont know if has any sense for you) my book is about spanish signatures and says that in some countries its usual not doing it so the interpretation about not having it is not valid there.(nothing in the book about using bible quotes in the signature either lol)

Other thing is that you have to compare the signature with the handwriting of the same person in a text and i dont have that. And there is the interpretation about the use of the surnames that is not valid for them either since the surname sistem is diferent there also.

So im going to put something of the book here as an example and if you think that it worths it i will translate other things later:

if the signature is very upward(more than 10º):the person have big ambitions impossible to make and that generates him frustation, upward(less than 10º):the person have ambitions but realistic ones, horizontal:madurity and selfcontrol or falling: sadness or tiredness

I am interested in what your book says, for entertainment value, at the very least. Somebody get a protractor and tell me who the egomaniacs in this family are! Oh wait...

Diana, I speak pretty fluent Spanish (but I don't read or write it much) and can maybe help you if you get stuck in your translation. :)

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I had a similar experience with the teachers in my grade school ( which, ironically, was also a Christian school ). Hold the paper this way, hold your pencil this way...I'm right-handed but I hold my pencil differently than others probably because of autism-related motor issues. The teachers really didn't get that. They always insisted that I hold it the "right way", even though the "right way" was uncomfortable and made it harder and slower to write. And they always wondered why I took so long to write...Luckily, my family was not so insistant on how I held a pencil as long as my handwriting was readable.

Also, what's up with the Bible verses with some of the Duggars' signatures?

I had a similar experience too because of motor issues/abnormal bone structure in my wrists. The worst was of course the year we had a nun teaching us ;) I think my parents ended up talking to her, though. I was also getting in trouble that year for "sitting on my legs" - because I was too short to see just sitting in it normally. LOL (I was young so didn't think to ask about bringing a pillow or anything. And it wasn't disruptive so my parents got kind-of annoyed I kept getting in trouble for it haha.)

I tried a fountain pen this year and it wrote better when I tried to hold it more like the "correct" way, otherwise the ink didn't flow right. I didn't like writing with it for long periods of time because of that, though. So I guessed that maybe that handwriting position was required for writing with those types of pens or maybe even with quills but now it's become slightly archaic or at least less necessary since we have ballpoint pens.

ETA: I love handwriting (didn't we have a thread about this once? Maybe in the old quiver full of chatter). Mine is pretty neat if I am trying, if I'm taking notes or something though sometimes I come back and can't even figure out some of my own handwriting. LOL I still remember cursive but that's probably because I loved it and really wanted to learn it.

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I used to have very precise, pretty cursive handwriting. Now that I type more than I write, my hand tires easily and it all comes out looking like chicken scratch. I'll never forget my mother telling me (when I was in middle school, I guess), to make my signature less legible so it would be harder to forge. No worries about that these days! :dance:

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I used to have very precise, pretty cursive handwriting. Now that I type more than I write, my hand tires easily and it all comes out looking like chicken scratch. I'll never forget my mother telling me (when I was in middle school, I guess), to make my signature less legible so it would be harder to forge. No worries about that these days! :dance:

I'm the same. I can do around 1 paragraph of neat italicized cursive & then my hand starts to hurt & my writing becomes barely legible. I used to be able to write with either hand & copy pages & pages from the board every day.

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I don't think that handwriting is an indicator of anything. Remember when doctors still hand wrote scripts? Ever try reading that? :lol: Even my dad who is in a highly skilled profession, has handwriting which looks like squashed ants.

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I don't think that handwriting is an indicator of anything. Remember when doctors still hand wrote scripts? Ever try reading that? :lol: Even my dad who is in a highly skilled profession, has handwriting which looks like squashed ants.

My dad is the President for 3 car dealerships, and other than his signature writes all in capital letters. Handwriting is not indicative of anything but how you were taught. I have really crappy handwriting because it wasn't drilled into me. My sister who went to the same school but 3 years before me had it drilled into her and her handwriting is beautiful.

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My printing handwriting is horrible. Just awful. My cursive on the other hand, is quite lovely. I went to a Catholic elementary school where that stuff was important. If you look at my printing, it looks like a second grader did it. That's actually a joke with one of my friends. I write everything in cursive, so I don't ever practice printing. Call me crazy, but I think cursive is easier! It's inda sad that hardly anyone does it anymore. At this one agency I worked at, they still did hand written notes. Out of the about 15 people there, I was the only one who wrote in cursive. That's how they could tell it was me before getting to my signature, lol. :lol:

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Being dyslexic, I was taught to write in cursive. Now my print is crappy but cursive is very readable. I wonder if josh practice his, it looks like when I was 10 and wrote all over my paper for when I was a famous. Where is Michelle?

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My handwriting looks like Anna's.

You know what I really hate? iS pEopLE WHo tYpe lIKe tHis.

Is it normal for fundies to sign their name with a bible verse? Does anyone have any insight about the meaning of those verses?

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^ Those are all pretty popular Bible verses. My brain is fuzzy, and I can't be bothered to look it up but I instantly recognized the verse from the book of James as the "consider it all joy my brothers when you face trials" etc etc. Pretty standard stuff.

I'm guessing the autographs were given out to fans at a christian conference or homeschooling gig. In which case, it's pretty popular for the "celebs" showcased there to throw their favorite bible verse into an autograph.

I have a friend who really likes the fundie-lite actors and Christian musicians. She has autographs from Casting Crowns, Kirk Cameron and some other folks similar to that. They all seem to add their fave verse to their signature, instead of the "to my number one fan" stuff that other celebs do.

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Being dyslexic, I was taught to write in cursive. Now my print is crappy but cursive is very readable. I wonder if josh practice his, it looks like when I was 10 and wrote all over my paper for when I was a famous. Where is Michelle?

Do you find it easier to write in cursive? My son is dyslexic, and when I watch him write, I think it would be easier for him to write in cursive so he doesn't have to worry about spacing his words and things. I'm just getting ready to start teaching him cursive. We've been trying to go over print again because he's never really learned the "proper" way to print.

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My son is dyslexic, and when I watch him write, I think it would be easier for him to write in cursive so he doesn't have to worry about spacing his words and things.

Spacing can still be an issue, as I've learned by watching both nieces.

However, proper letter formation seems to be easier simply because if you don't make them right, they won't connect.

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I am interested in what your book says, for entertainment value, at the very least. Somebody get a protractor and tell me who the egomaniacs in this family are! Oh wait...

Diana, I speak pretty fluent Spanish (but I don't read or write it much) and can maybe help you if you get stuck in your translation. :)

ok thank you very much! so can you tell me how to say rubrica in english? and if is something that you dont do in your signatures in the states

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Read/heard years ago the Duggars saying the kids are suppose to add their favourite bible verse to anything they sign. I remember because I was puzzled by the idea of having a "favourite" bible verse. Mentioned it to MrMiggy who immediately suggested "Jesus wept." as his favourite because it is the shortest and therefore easiest to remember. After a bit if thought, I decided that to choose anything other than "For God so loved the world that he gave his only son ... " kind of meant you missed the point to Christianity.

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ok thank you very much! so can you tell me how to say rubrica in english? and if is something that you dont do in your signatures in the states

In this context, it translates as 'flourish.' Americans typically don't sign their name with a flourish; that's what tattoos are for! :lol:

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I admit it; I used to read books on handwriting analysis when I was younger. It was a fun ice-breaker at parties, back when I was shy.

That said, I shouldn't be surprised at how badly the Duggars' SOTDRT neglected penmanship lessons, but I am. I don't know any fundie homeschoolers, but a recent client of mine and his wife, who are politically-conservative "traditionalists," homeschool their kids and insist they develop good penmanship.

Then again, these people are highly-educated and accomplished (both are successful attorneys) and expect their children will be, too. Thet see having the ability to write easily, fluidly, and legibly as an important skill, but also crucial to brain development. They also don't want their kids to become the kinds of people who cannot organize their thoughts and write them down without benefit of a word processor. (And while they annoyed me on a lot of levels, I understand where they are coming from, there.)

The Duggar kids are pretty much expected to listen and obey. They are to be the recipients of knowledge, rather than the creators of it. And in that case, why bother teaching penmanship? Other than grocery lists, reminder notes, and the occasional signature or autograph, what cause might they have to write at all?

That Josh's signature looks the most "signature-like" doesn't surprise me at all. He sees himself as a public figure, and wants to be considered important, so of course he'd develop a "real" signature. I would be very curious to see what his regular handwriting looks like; my prediction is that it's clumsy and awkward and looks nothing like his signature.

Anna's astounds me by how childish it looks. The carefully-drawn humps of the lower-case ns suggests she's a concrete, practical thinker (analytical and quick-witted people tend to have pointed arches on ns and ms).

The older girls' sigs are pretty typical of teenaged girls. Jessa's and Jill's are both so simple, I'll venture that there probably is little or no difference between their regular handwriting and their signatures. In that case, both would be very much "What you see is what you get" people--they don't have separate "public" and "private" personas. And in that case, both are practical, level-headed, no-nonsense people who don't create drama or get caught up in fantasies. The signatures are formed easily and naturally, which would suggest they are comfortable with who they are.

Jana's and Jinger's, on the other hand, are...interesting. Jana's is very stiff, upright, and controlled. The curled-in capital J and the final back-curved flourish would be seen as self-protective gestures. Jinger has the same traits, despite having more relaxed handwriting. Getting to know either of them will take time; they're not going to open up right away. And the reverse-hook at the end of Jana's last name indicates a desire to reach out, or to go out into the world--but she pulls back and protect herself instead. The tension in Jana's signature tells me she has a hard time putting up and maintaining her public persona. Jinger's is looser, and probably the most artistic of all of them, so my guess is that she's mastered "hiding in plain sight." She's there, she's participating, and given that inflated dot on the lower-case i she might even like the spotlight. But that doesn't mean she has to let you in or tell you what she's thinking--and unlike Jana, she gets satisfaction from that. The coiled-inward lower loop on her lower-case g suggest she's got an active secret fantasy life, and she spends a lot of time there.

John David is, as always, a cipher.

Jim Bob's is interesting because he only signs himself "Jim Bob." Perhaps he includes his last name on legal documents, but for autographs and signed books he leaves it off. Omission of the last name, flourishes that scrawl through it, or writing it much smaller or less legibly than the first name indicates inner conflict surrounding one's family of origin. The first name represents the individual's sense of self, the last name represents their relationship to the family name. Given what we know of Jim Bob's relationship to his dad, I'm hardly surprised at this--he's literally cut his father off to emphasize himself as an individual.

Michelle's isn't shown, but I've seen it before. She prints her signature, and it's very clear, legible, and no-frills--except for the heart she uses to dot the i in her first name. Now, seriously, what adult woman does that? Girls usually grow out of it by the time they are 15 or 16, but she's in her 40s and still doing it. I haven't seen her regular handwriting, but I doubt it varies from her signature very much. She writes quickly, with no flourishes, and there are no long beginning or end strokes on her signature. The slant is upright, indicating emotional self-control. In regular handwriting, these are signs of decisiveness and lack of sentimentality or impulsiveness. Despite the wide eyes and baby-voice, her handwriting suggests she's pretty bright, or at least a clear thinker, and is probably the brains of the family. So the heart is even weirder, in that context, and I suspect it serves the same function as her big-eyed, baby-voiced mannerisms--it may not be consciously calculated way of softening and "feminizing" her public persona, but that's pretty much what it does. She's not really a simpering idiot; she's just incorporated looking like one into her persona.

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Dang Jezebel/Calista, now I want you to analyze MY signature! :D

Very interesting information, especially about Jana and Jinger. :D

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I admit it; I used to read books on handwriting analysis when I was younger. It was a fun ice-breaker at parties, back when I was shy.

That said, I shouldn't be surprised at how badly the Duggars' SOTDRT neglected penmanship lessons, but I am. I don't know any fundie homeschoolers, but a recent client of mine and his wife, who are politically-conservative "traditionalists," homeschool their kids and insist they develop good penmanship.

Then again, these people are highly-educated and accomplished (both are successful attorneys) and expect their children will be, too. Thet see having the ability to write easily, fluidly, and legibly as an important skill, but also crucial to brain development. They also don't want their kids to become the kinds of people who cannot organize their thoughts and write them down without benefit of a word processor. (And while they annoyed me on a lot of levels, I understand where they are coming from, there.)

The Duggar kids are pretty much expected to listen and obey. They are to be the recipients of knowledge, rather than the creators of it. And in that case, why bother teaching penmanship? Other than grocery lists, reminder notes, and the occasional signature or autograph, what cause might they have to write at all?

That Josh's signature looks the most "signature-like" doesn't surprise me at all. He sees himself as a public figure, and wants to be considered important, so of course he'd develop a "real" signature. I would be very curious to see what his regular handwriting looks like; my prediction is that it's clumsy and awkward and looks nothing like his signature.

Anna's astounds me by how childish it looks. The carefully-drawn humps of the lower-case ns suggests she's a concrete, practical thinker (analytical and quick-witted people tend to have pointed arches on ns and ms).

The older girls' sigs are pretty typical of teenaged girls. Jessa's and Jill's are both so simple, I'll venture that there probably is little or no difference between their regular handwriting and their signatures. In that case, both would be very much "What you see is what you get" people--they don't have separate "public" and "private" personas. And in that case, both are practical, level-headed, no-nonsense people who don't create drama or get caught up in fantasies. The signatures are formed easily and naturally, which would suggest they are comfortable with who they are.

Jana's and Jinger's, on the other hand, are...interesting. Jana's is very stiff, upright, and controlled. The curled-in capital J and the final back-curved flourish would be seen as self-protective gestures. Jinger has the same traits, despite having more relaxed handwriting. Getting to know either of them will take time; they're not going to open up right away. And the reverse-hook at the end of Jana's last name indicates a desire to reach out, or to go out into the world--but she pulls back and protect herself instead. The tension in Jana's signature tells me she has a hard time putting up and maintaining her public persona. Jinger's is looser, and probably the most artistic of all of them, so my guess is that she's mastered "hiding in plain sight." She's there, she's participating, and given that inflated dot on the lower-case i she might even like the spotlight. But that doesn't mean she has to let you in or tell you what she's thinking--and unlike Jana, she gets satisfaction from that. The coiled-inward lower loop on her lower-case g suggest she's got an active secret fantasy life, and she spends a lot of time there.

John David is, as always, a cipher.

Jim Bob's is interesting because he only signs himself "Jim Bob." Perhaps he includes his last name on legal documents, but for autographs and signed books he leaves it off. Omission of the last name, flourishes that scrawl through it, or writing it much smaller or less legibly than the first name indicates inner conflict surrounding one's family of origin. The first name represents the individual's sense of self, the last name represents their relationship to the family name. Given what we know of Jim Bob's relationship to his dad, I'm hardly surprised at this--he's literally cut his father off to emphasize himself as an individual.

Michelle's isn't shown, but I've seen it before. She prints her signature, and it's very clear, legible, and no-frills--except for the heart she uses to dot the i in her first name. Now, seriously, what adult woman does that? Girls usually grow out of it by the time they are 15 or 16, but she's in her 40s and still doing it. I haven't seen her regular handwriting, but I doubt it varies from her signature very much. She writes quickly, with no flourishes, and there are no long beginning or end strokes on her signature. The slant is upright, indicating emotional self-control. In regular handwriting, these are signs of decisiveness and lack of sentimentality or impulsiveness. Despite the wide eyes and baby-voice, her handwriting suggests she's pretty bright, or at least a clear thinker, and is probably the brains of the family. So the heart is even weirder, in that context, and I suspect it serves the same function as her big-eyed, baby-voiced mannerisms--it may not be consciously calculated way of softening and "feminizing" her public persona, but that's pretty much what it does. She's not really a simpering idiot; she's just incorporated looking like one into her persona.

Wow, thats really interesting-and it does seem to describe what we have seen of their personalities.

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My handwriting looks like Anna's.

You know what I really hate? iS pEopLE WHo tYpe lIKe tHis.

Is it normal for fundies to sign their name with a bible verse? Does anyone have any insight about the meaning of those verses?

The worst really is people who use "r" and "u" and other abbreviations in ANY writing. I hate it when my otherwise well-educated friends send me messages like "c u there". The use is bad enough in texts, but to see those "abbreviations" anywhere but a phone is a true embarrassment to the writer.

I don't think the Duggar's poor handwriting is something to snark about in context of the children. However, it could well be an indictment of the failure of the "classical" education at the SODRT.

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Jim-Bob leaving off the last name could also be indicative of his over-inflated ego - he's so important he doesn't need to use it. He's right up there with Elvis. (Or in his case, Jesus.)

Other things I noticed: Is that a Jesus-fish next to Josh's signature? Why yes, I do believe it is. Why am I not surprised that his verse is from JOSHUA? Joseph includes a middle initial, and Jedidiah includes middle name. And Joy has the curly J that Jinger uses, but even more pronounced.

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Read/heard years ago the Duggars saying the kids are suppose to add their favourite bible verse to anything they sign. I remember because I was puzzled by the idea of having a "favourite" bible verse. Mentioned it to MrMiggy who immediately suggested "Jesus wept." as his favourite because it is the shortest and therefore easiest to remember. After a bit if thought, I decided that to choose anything other than "For God so loved the world that he gave his only son ... " kind of meant you missed the point to Christianity.

I have what's probably an irritating habit of comparing the KJV to the complete works of Shakespeare. They were written about the same time, are about the same length, the authorship is contested, and there are a bunch of versions of both. When a few of my fundie relatives started posting "John 3:14" or "Hebrews 11:16" or whatever, I responded with Shakespeare quotes, "Henry VIII 1:1 80-81" or "Hamlet 1:5 863-864."

To that same end, I dunno, if Christianity could get by with one verse, why have the rest of the book? Parts of it are going to be more resonant at different times, just because that's life. Same with Shakespeare, theatre people cherry pick the stuff they like even in individual performances, "let's cut that line, it's not serving what we're trying to say here" (or even, "that's freaking boring, let's cut the whole thing, we can do that with a light and sound cue").

Now, I suppose if I were a Shakespeare literalist, and believed that every single word the guy wrote was inviolate, I'd be in for a hell of a time, and would have to find some way to explain why the guy didn't care enough about his own work to have it published in an authorised edition. Even God tried to do that with Moses, but the record there tells why he decided not to have that one re-printed. And apparently, he did the same thing again later with Joseph Smith, "here are some golden plates, copy down what's written on them, but don't show the plates to anybody else, bury them and don't tell anybody where you found them." Huh. God's really protective of his copyright.

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In this context, it translates as 'flourish.' Americans typically don't sign their name with a flourish; that's what tattoos are for! :lol:

ok! duggar ones looks normal then (except the bible verse, i guess thats something unusual) :lol:

I admit it; I used to read books on handwriting analysis when I was younger. It was a fun ice-breaker at parties, back when I was shy.

That said, I shouldn't be surprised at how badly the Duggars' SOTDRT neglected penmanship lessons, but I am. I don't know any fundie homeschoolers, but a recent client of mine and his wife, who are politically-conservative "traditionalists," homeschool their kids and insist they develop good penmanship.

Then again, these people are highly-educated and accomplished (both are successful attorneys) and expect their children will be, too. Thet see having the ability to write easily, fluidly, and legibly as an important skill, but also crucial to brain development. They also don't want their kids to become the kinds of people who cannot organize their thoughts and write them down without benefit of a word processor. (And while they annoyed me on a lot of levels, I understand where they are coming from, there.)

The Duggar kids are pretty much expected to listen and obey. They are to be the recipients of knowledge, rather than the creators of it. And in that case, why bother teaching penmanship? Other than grocery lists, reminder notes, and the occasional signature or autograph, what cause might they have to write at all?

That Josh's signature looks the most "signature-like" doesn't surprise me at all. He sees himself as a public figure, and wants to be considered important, so of course he'd develop a "real" signature. I would be very curious to see what his regular handwriting looks like; my prediction is that it's clumsy and awkward and looks nothing like his signature.

Anna's astounds me by how childish it looks. The carefully-drawn humps of the lower-case ns suggests she's a concrete, practical thinker (analytical and quick-witted people tend to have pointed arches on ns and ms).

The older girls' sigs are pretty typical of teenaged girls. Jessa's and Jill's are both so simple, I'll venture that there probably is little or no difference between their regular handwriting and their signatures. In that case, both would be very much "What you see is what you get" people--they don't have separate "public" and "private" personas. And in that case, both are practical, level-headed, no-nonsense people who don't create drama or get caught up in fantasies. The signatures are formed easily and naturally, which would suggest they are comfortable with who they are.

Jana's and Jinger's, on the other hand, are...interesting. Jana's is very stiff, upright, and controlled. The curled-in capital J and the final back-curved flourish would be seen as self-protective gestures. Jinger has the same traits, despite having more relaxed handwriting. Getting to know either of them will take time; they're not going to open up right away. And the reverse-hook at the end of Jana's last name indicates a desire to reach out, or to go out into the world--but she pulls back and protect herself instead. The tension in Jana's signature tells me she has a hard time putting up and maintaining her public persona. Jinger's is looser, and probably the most artistic of all of them, so my guess is that she's mastered "hiding in plain sight." She's there, she's participating, and given that inflated dot on the lower-case i she might even like the spotlight. But that doesn't mean she has to let you in or tell you what she's thinking--and unlike Jana, she gets satisfaction from that. The coiled-inward lower loop on her lower-case g suggest she's got an active secret fantasy life, and she spends a lot of time there.

John David is, as always, a cipher.

Jim Bob's is interesting because he only signs himself "Jim Bob." Perhaps he includes his last name on legal documents, but for autographs and signed books he leaves it off. Omission of the last name, flourishes that scrawl through it, or writing it much smaller or less legibly than the first name indicates inner conflict surrounding one's family of origin. The first name represents the individual's sense of self, the last name represents their relationship to the family name. Given what we know of Jim Bob's relationship to his dad, I'm hardly surprised at this--he's literally cut his father off to emphasize himself as an individual.

Michelle's isn't shown, but I've seen it before. She prints her signature, and it's very clear, legible, and no-frills--except for the heart she uses to dot the i in her first name. Now, seriously, what adult woman does that? Girls usually grow out of it by the time they are 15 or 16, but she's in her 40s and still doing it. I haven't seen her regular handwriting, but I doubt it varies from her signature very much. She writes quickly, with no flourishes, and there are no long beginning or end strokes on her signature. The slant is upright, indicating emotional self-control. In regular handwriting, these are signs of decisiveness and lack of sentimentality or impulsiveness. Despite the wide eyes and baby-voice, her handwriting suggests she's pretty bright, or at least a clear thinker, and is probably the brains of the family. So the heart is even weirder, in that context, and I suspect it serves the same function as her big-eyed, baby-voiced mannerisms--it may not be consciously calculated way of softening and "feminizing" her public persona, but that's pretty much what it does. She's not really a simpering idiot; she's just incorporated looking like one into her persona.

wow amazing analysis, that was what i wanted to do, but i dont have the skills so thankyou! really interesting, specially the michelle one

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'Childlike' writing, both printed and cursive, is very common these days. At least in the US, many schools don't put much effort into even printing, and many schools don't teach cursive script at all. As a result, in many families the parents must teach cursive if they want their kids to be able to read and write it.

I knew a woman whose husband had exquisite handwriting. She said that he told her that all of his brothers and sisters had good handwriting because their father insisted on it. For half an hour every evening the kids had to sit at the kitchen table and copy articles from newspapers or magazines. Their dad would read the newspaper and cut out articles for each of the kids. He tried to tailor the article towards the kids' individual interests, or sometimes something that he thought they should be aware of. This started when they were very young, using printing. If they finished copying the article before the half hour was up, they'd then have to comment on what they'd just copied. Sometime in grade school their dad would show them a handwriting manual that had a lot of different handwriting styles in it, tell them to pick the one they liked, and then the copying and the comments would be done in cursive.

They all have beautiful handwriting, excellent grammer when they choose to use it, punctuation is spot-on, etc. They are also very good debaters when they want to be, but for some reason none of the kids ever went on to college.

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