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Making Great Conversationalists


Miggy

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Lady: What grade are you in?

Mary: Tenth grade.

Lady: Where are you going to go for college?

Mary: I am not planning to go to college. I would like to be a wife and mother someday. In the meantime, I am studying art so I can illustrate children's books. I can do that at home and save all the money that college costs while not being exposed to the negative influences of college.

I'm picturing the poor Sam's Club saleslady. Talk about TMI! That's along the lines of asking someone how they are and they give you a litany of their aches and pains.

This is talking at people, not to them.

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Conversation is important in courtship. A man has no hope of being successful in courtship if he is unable to converse clearly with his potential father-in-law (What the ...?) oh, and the girl. "The more they talk and share deep heart feelings, the closer they become emotionally.

"Deep heart feelings?"

Deep. Heart. Feelings.

What the eff is a deep heart feeling? Is it a euphamism for love? It can't be; Maxwells don't love their partners until after marriage. And why would that need a euphemism anyway?

I admit I'm a little amazed at the idea of Steve having any feelings at all, much less deep heart ones. Do you think he shares his deep heart feelings with Teri during his nightly back rub? When he told his men's prayer group about how he hated poor Teri for no reason, was that a deep heart feeling?

Jesus H. This is absurd.

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"Deep heart feelings?"

Deep. Heart. Feelings.

What the eff is a deep heart feeling? Is it a euphamism for love? It can't be; Maxwells don't love their partners until after marriage. And why would that need a euphemism anyway?

I admit I'm a little amazed at the idea of Steve having any feelings at all, much less deep heart ones. Do you think he shares his deep heart feelings with Teri during his nightly back rub? When he told his men's prayer group about how he hated poor Teri for no reason, was that a deep heart feeling?

Jesus H. This is absurd.

Wait, what? He hated Teri? What the hell for?

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Lady: What grade are you in?

Mary: Tenth grade.

Lady: Where are you going to go for college?

Mary: I am not planning to go to college. I would like to be a wife and mother someday. In the meantime, I am studying art so I can illustrate children's books. I can do that at home and save all the money that college costs while not being exposed to the negative influences of college.

I'm picturing the poor Sam's Club saleslady. Talk about TMI! That's along the lines of asking someone how they are and they give you a litany of their aches and pains.

This is talking at people, not to them.

Why is Mary saying "tenth grade" an acceptable response? I would think that " I am in the tenth grade" would be a more conversing response.

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Wait, what? He hated Teri? What the hell for?

I remember that one. It was shortly before they left their actual church, around the time Nate was married. He confessed his frustration to his men's bible study group. I believe it was his frustration with her depression. Back then, the reversal kids were pretty small. He thought Teri should just pray it away. I don't remember exactly what the group told him, but shortly after he left the study group. Not to much longer, they left the church.

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I remember that one. It was shortly before they left their actual church, around the time Nate was married. He confessed his frustration to his men's bible study group. I believe it was his frustration with her depression. Back then, the reversal kids were pretty small. He thought Teri should just pray it away. I don't remember exactly what the group told him, but shortly after he left the study group. Not to much longer, they left the church.

I would guess they told him to be more supportive and help her out with more of the childcare and chores.

Poor Teri - I can't imagine being married to someone that felt that way about me.

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Reading between the lines of some of Steve's Corners (especially the ones entitled "Bitter or Sweet") I really get the feeling that he has to make a conscious effort to "love" Teri but it's still not a romantic love, or even one with a foundation in true emotion. Rather, it sounds like an obligation; that he loves her in spite of everything and because of nothing. I also think that HE thinks he got some kind of bum deal with Teri, that with her depression and other issues, she's damaged goods that he's stuck with, so he's making the best out of a bad situation, made somewhat easier by the fact that he broke her when she was most vulnerable and managed to convince her that it's all good. As long as she and the children toe the line, they're okay. But I have no doubt that he'd cut them out entirely if they ever stray from the One True Path.

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I would guess they told him to be more supportive and help her out with more of the childcare and chores.

Poor Teri - I can't imagine being married to someone that felt that way about me.

Steve is even worse that I thought!! What an ASS!! I bolded what u said and I COMPLEYLY AGREE!!! He was probably upset that other men were telling how to run his house.

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I often don't know how to feel about Teri. On the one had she's helped Steve with the abuse of their children for all these years. But on the other, he's abused her, too. I feel sorry for her, mostly, I suppose.

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Plus if you're actually offended when a 5-year-old is too shy to talk to you, there is something wrong with YOU, not that child.

VERY TRUE!! I have a dog walking client who has a 6 year old son. He is VERY shy so if I see him out w/ one of his parents I don't try and engage him in conversation.

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I got a chuckle from the image of Stevehovah condensing all over the place like condensed milk, but the correct term is condescension.

Thank you! I was trying to figure it out, but I was coming up with condemnation. It fits Stevus also.

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Wait, what? He hated Teri? What the hell for?

For no reason. He just did. From the April 1998 Dad's Corner:

There was some trivial imperfection in my sweet wife and I allowed myself to dwell on it. Whenever I saw her, I would take up that thought. I began to feel sorry for myself and be judgmental of her. I knew it was wrong, but I continued to do it anyway. Soon she knew something was wrong and asked me about it. I told her it was my problem and she could pray for me. Sharing that with her would have been hurtful and not helped in any way. Her prayers were what I needed.

By God's timing our churches' men's meeting came and I was eager to go. During a time of sharing I confessed to the men that my heart was wrong towards Teri and I needed prayer. I was allowing wrong thoughts, but had not been able to break out of it. As is the custom during these fantastic fellowship times, the men gathered around me and prayed for me. The result -- God totally freed me from my thoughts and I had wonderful peace on the way home that night.

Incidentally, he left that supportive men's group soon after to start his one-man show at the nursing home. I suspect he flounced when they told him he was going off the rails and they didn't all fall in line when he told them he was the infallible mouthpiece of almighty God.

Reading between the lines of some of Steve's Corners (especially the ones entitled "Bitter or Sweet") I really get the feeling that he has to make a conscious effort to "love" Teri but it's still not a romantic love, or even one with a foundation in true emotion. Rather, it sounds like an obligation; that he loves her in spite of everything and because of nothing. I also think that HE thinks he got some kind of bum deal with Teri, that with her depression and other issues, she's damaged goods that he's stuck with, so he's making the best out of a bad situation, made somewhat easier by the fact that he broke her when she was most vulnerable and managed to convince her that it's all good. As long as she and the children toe the line, they're okay. But I have no doubt that he'd cut them out entirely if they ever stray from the One True Path.

This is the exact impression I get too of Steve's feelings toward his marriage. He wrote a lot in the earlier dad's corners about how he only loves Teri and stays in his marriage because Jesus says it's a sin not to.

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Does Steve love anything besides himself?

With the way fundies speak of love and how you choose who you love, it does make you wonder whether they actually do love their families or just act nice to them because they feel they have to, but dont actually feel anything towards them.

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I got a chuckle from the image of Stevehovah condensing all over the place like condensed milk, but the correct term is condescension.

But...but...what about DEATH? Or is Steve trying to bore the reader to death, or kill conversations with his "great conversationalist" strategies?

This book sounds dire.

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VERY TRUE!! I have a dog walking client who has a 6 year old son. He is VERY shy so if I see him out w/ one of his parents I don't try and engage him in conversation.

Went for my usual morning walk today and greeted the people that I passed. Basic stuff: "Good Morning. Isn't a beautiful day?" I pass the same people most days so although I don't know their names or anything about them, they are not strangers.

I have noticed my boys (late teens) do the same thing. Adults don't initiate conversations with them, especially son 2 as he is goth and looks pretty scary but they are happy to talk when they realise the boys are comfortable talking. I see this as a sign the boys are maturing socially and that the people they pass have good social skills. Daughter (early teens) is still at the stage of putting her head down when she passes someone and guess what? No one speaks to her. The adults she is passing recognise she doesn't want to talk and leave her alone.

The Maxwells don't recognise their own lack of social skills. It is not appropriate when you are trying to sell me books to also try and get my life story or to tell me yours. It is not appropriate to expect a five year old in a supermarket to answer your questions. It is not appropriate, Mary, when a lady is making polite fill-the-silence conversation, to spout your parents college is evil opinions. It is not appropriate, Steve, to expect young men who come courting your daughters to be confident and reel off their entire beliefs without being at least a bit nervous. Flicking back through the book, all the examples of bad conversations actually show poor social skills on behalf on the "good" person, some worse than others.

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Went for my usual morning walk today and greeted the people that I passed. Basic stuff: "Good Morning. Isn't a beautiful day?" I pass the same people most days so although I don't know their names or anything about them, they are not strangers.

I have noticed my boys (late teens) do the same thing. Adults don't initiate conversations with them, especially son 2 as he is goth and looks pretty scary but they are happy to talk when they realise the boys are comfortable talking. I see this as a sign the boys are maturing socially and that the people they pass have good social skills. Daughter (early teens) is still at the stage of putting her head down when she passes someone and guess what? No one speaks to her. The adults she is passing recognise she doesn't want to talk and leave her alone.

The Maxwells don't recognise their own lack of social skills. It is not appropriate when you are trying to sell me books to also try and get my life story or to tell me yours. It is not appropriate to expect a five year old in a supermarket to answer your questions. It is not appropriate, Mary, when a lady is making polite fill-the-silence conversation, to spout your parents college is evil opinions. It is not appropriate, Steve, to expect young men who come courting your daughters to be confident and reel off their entire beliefs without being at least a bit nervous. Flicking back through the book, all the examples of bad conversations actually show poor social skills on behalf on the "good" person, some worse than others.

This. What I was wondering as I read the examples is how much oversharing they seem to think is correct, normal, and the way people should act. The are so isolated that they either forget or never quite "got" normal conversation modes. He was a engineer who couldn't manage the workplace interactions with others, as I recall-- having spent my entire adult life around engineers and programmers, I've seen a few who were like this-- either too shy or too ready to offer TMI or more info than people around them wanted/needed. Most I've knows are not like this (despite the stereotype) but it sounds like his own inability to navigate socially is being passed down in the family and offered as a model to others. I can't imagine this will be a big seller.

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Unfortunately I can see it being a great seller by Maxwell standards. All home school patents are concerned about building social skills and this is marketed as the solution. I hope parents recognise it for the rubbish it is but I am not holding my breath.

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All the little snippets of conversation shown here would, for me at least, bring any conversation to an end.

"Welcome to the neighbourhood. Here are some biscuits. Homeschool is the one true way."

"Thank you. Thank you. Glad you enjoy it. Bye."

"Where are you going to college?"

"College is evil and I my dad is terrified I might find out that the world is a fun interesting place."

"Okay then. Good luck with that. Bye.

I think Steve has badly misread people. People are not bad conversationalists in any way; they just don't want to talk to you guy.

*All conversations paraphrased for my own entertainment.

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All the little snippets of conversation shown here would, for me at least, bring any conversation to an end.

"Welcome to the neighbourhood. Here are some biscuits. Homeschool is the one true way."

"Thank you. Thank you. Glad you enjoy it. Bye."

"Where are you going to college?"

"College is evil and I my dad is terrified I might find out that the world is a fun interesting place."

"Okay then. Good luck with that. Bye.

I think Steve has badly misread people. People are not bad conversationalists in any way; they just don't want to talk to you guy.

*All conversations paraphrased for my own entertainment.

Very entertaining!! Also I agree about your statement about Steve!

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Plus if you're actually offended when a 5-year-old is too shy to talk to you, there is something wrong with YOU, not that child.

Totally agreed. Not to go off-Maxwell, but wasn't it Voddie Baucham who wanted to spank someone else's kid for not greeting him in a way he deemed proper? That's all I can think of when I read your quote. When an adult is that desperate to protect and enforce their own sense of authority...well, it reflects either major insecurities or narcissism, or both. Ugh.

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I have to say I find it completely ironic that the Maxwells of all people have a book about conversational skills. OK I've never met them but some fj'ers have, I have talked with Steve-o via emaila few times and iI've seen the example of their communication skills on their website.

They are NOT great conversationists, not by any meaning of the word. Being a great conversationist means being adaptable, comfortable and to an extent, verbose. The Maxwells are none of those things. They may be able to stick to a script but f they're forced to deviate from that script, as evidenced when some Jingerites approached the girls during one of their conferences, they are unable to adapt and will flounder.

Steve-o should have titled his book 'How to stick to a script' instead, because that is what they do. There are some fundie out there who have evaluated their beliefs and have engaged in critical thinking and have gained the ability to converse and defend those beliefs. That cannot be said for the maxwell girls. I think Steve-o knows this too which is why he retains such a strict isolationist control. The minute the girlsare forced to think for themselves tthey go blank because they have no idea how to converse when forced to go off script.

Apologies for typos, my pad has updated android and is having a major brain fart.

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Chapter 4: What are the ingredients of a good conversation?

John comes to father complaining about Cathy being mean. Father is too busy answering an email to listen to son. "John's dad lost a wonderful opportunity to demonstrate his love for his son by meaningfully sharing in this conversation." [Alternately, perhaps John should have started with "Dad, is now a good time to talk or are you busy?"]

"The motivation for good conversation needs to be love." Bible quote that does not relate to this idea in anyway. In fact, a bible verse so tangled in KJV language that I looked up the NIV version to make sure I understood it properly. Now the John-Dad conversation as Steve thinks it should have happened. In this version Dad immediately puts email away to talk to son. Dad has great advice for son "How do you think The Lord would have you respond?"

More paragraphs on conversation is love. Now we are back to the new neighbour. The lady who had just move in and was too busy to talk "was demonstrating a proud, self-focused heart that didn't appear to care for her new neighbour."

Obedience to God's Word produces powerful conversation. "Our children need to have pure hearts or else their conversations are nothing but hypocrisy." Confessing Jesus as Saviour is critical. "When they use God's Word, their conversations take on a higher level of authority and persuasiveness". [This book should be How to Evangelise.]

Example conversation between two 14 yr old girls. One was annoyed by her younger sister early in the day and told her to go away. The other girl is now telling her off for being mean, using lots of bible verses. According to Steve, this makes her perfect and her friend will never be mean to her sister again. [in my world, the friend is a preachy bitch who needs a slap but I guess that's why I am not a fundy.]

Steve now explains that to use scripture we need to make sure our children memorise lots of it.

Example conversation: Son talks to mother about being convicted by the bible verse he has just read. Mother was upset because the toaster was broken but now her son has shared a bible verse with her she is convicted as well and thanks God for breakfast.

Children should learn one bible verse a day.

Lying is bad. Sometimes the truth is inappropriate. Example: Asking why someone is fat within earshot? More examples of children giving one word answers instead of multiple sentence answers.

Don't tattle. Don't speak negatively. Don't use critical words. Example: Child reports to his mother that sister isn't doing her chores. BAD. Child tells sister off for not doing her chores, offers to help then reports to mother that sister is finished her chores. GOOD. [being honest, if my brothers offered to help I would have taken advantage of this more and more and ended with them doing all my work.]

Example: Son rushes away from breakfast, puts dishes in dishwasher then leaves. BAD. He should say "Thankyou, Mommy, for breakfast. I was hungry, and I really like it. I know it takes you a while to make. Thank you for my delicious breakfast." [steve really does have unrealistic expectations, doesn't he? Also, someone please call the punctuation police.]

Exercises

(1) Rate yourself on how often you use bible verses in conversation.

(2) Rate yourself on the words you use in conversations. Are they loving? Are they edifying?

(3) Read this conversation aloud to your family and discuss.

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Dear Steve God, if that is what it takes to be a good conversationalist I'm glad I'm a shitty one*.

*by Maxwell standards, most of society would probably say I'm a good conversationalist.

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I am very socially awkward, which probably makes me the master of conversation in Maxhell. Bet I can speak more normally than the Maxwell "kids" though.

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I've actually been taught, (due to my Asperger's syndrome) by speech therapists, etc, how to make conversation. The lessons I was taught do not resemble in any way what this book represents. The main thing I got out of the lessons was that I'm not supposed to offend people, that I should be nice and respectful of all people. Making eye contact is very difficult for me, but I should try as much as I can and most people will meet me halfway. Also, I should never discuss religion, sex or politics unless I was with friends. As I understand it most people picked these lessons up naturally from society. Why didn't Steve? Why do society's rules not apply to him?

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