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Making Great Conversationalists


Miggy

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This is such a dangerous teaching, that a child is not in control of his or her own body and must defer to authority figures no matter what.

As the parent of 2 in braces I can see where you know that as the adult you get the final decision however you still need to consult the person going through the treatment (and pain) as to what they think. Braces suck and they hurt, they cut into your mouth and make your teeth hurt. If there are options then it needs to be told to the patient in a way they can understand and the patient should have input in the decision. Mom thinks the spacer should come out, Dr thinks it should stay in, how about both sides are explained to the patient and they get to decide? Mom says taking them out now will stop the pain. Dr says Yes it will stop the pain but the pain will come back once we put them back in, here is how we can minimize the pain. And voila the patient decides what they want to do for themselves based off of real information.

Compromise and thinking that children have a right to have input on their medical care. Flipping amazing.

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I have never had a medical professional ask my kids what their opinion is re. a treatment. Is it possible the ortho., seeing how they were dressed, maybe seeing a very submissive attitude from Mary, was worried something weird was going on in the Maxwell house and wanted to engage Mary?

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Well Steve, this is what happens when you don't let kids think for themselves. Brings up many childhood memories. Feeling judged for everything I said then my mom embarrassed because I was too shy to talk to people. Part was just my personality but part was feeling like I wasn't allowed mistakes. I'm so glad the Maxwells weren't around when I was growing up. My parents probably would have bought the stupid book and made us do the questions in it. Fun family time. Blah.

I read this two or three times before I understood Teri was horrified that the orothodontist was talking to Mary and not that Teri was horrified that her daughter was saying "what mom thinks is best." My parents tell a story of how much they worried when one of my sisters, as a teen, was talking to someone at some event and when asked a question, looked in the direction of my parents.... they wanted her to be confident to answer for herself even if they were there.

I figured, given their book on conversations, they would expect their child to be able to give the dentist the answers.

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Miggy, what was the comment that won you this fine piece of literature?

I don't remember ezactly - I'll have to go back and find it. I had a KJV quote and mentioned my 8 (?) home schooled children lacking these skills. Probably a good idea if Steve doesn't find out that I am a musician who works in music theatre at night and teaches in schools during the day, that I send my three kids to public schools and that I had to use a computer program to transfer my NIV quote to KJV.

Steve, if you read here, lying, while not ethical, can achieve some great results.

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I have never had a medical professional ask my kids what their opinion is re. a treatment. Is it possible the ortho., seeing how they were dressed, maybe seeing a very submissive attitude from Mary, was worried something weird was going on in the Maxwell house and wanted to engage Mary?

That was standard at my ortho's practice, he always involves the kids in decisions and at least would make sure you understood what was going on. I think he thought that since it's such a long process and involves pain and commitment to healthy habits that the child is likely going to be responsible for (brushing, flossing, foods to avoid), it was better to have the kid feel involved. He also had an rule that kids had to pay for broken brackets that happened because of bad habits, themselves, to encourage responsibility (technically un-enforcable but he would say that in front of the parents if that was what was going on). I think that rule was common with ortho's around me.

It could definitely be your situation too, though.

ETA: I have a theory that more involvement works for orthodontists because it's really a customized treatment whereas a lot of other typical kid medical things are pretty standardized... like the treatment for strep throat is pretty much antibiotics, there's not much of a decision there (unless the parent doesn't want their kid to take them).

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This level of arrogance is beyond me. "We can't have good conversations with lots of other people. Clearly the lots of other people are all the problem and not the one thing all these conversations have in common, which would be us." I doubt I'd be able to have a good conversation with them either, there is only so much Bible I can quote, and I really don't care to discuss death.

I had to re-read that line also to make sure I read it correctly. My thoughts are the same as yours on this line. You just stated it better.

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On the orthos/braces thing- the reasoning for this that I've heard (my godmother's an orthodontist) is that braces are mostly on teens, who are generally going to HAVE to make choices about not breaking the rules that keep braces in shape (ie, avoiding forbidden foods that break brackets) because it's not like younger kids who will be more managed by parents in what they eat and have access to.

On the Maxwells- I just can't understand how they think themselves good conversationalists with the stilted character we read in all their stuff that I've ever seen quoted. I sometimes think they're going for 'old-fashioned' but seriously, it's just stilted and affected and FAKE sounding. I'm curious if they actually speak like that at their live events- and if so, how on earth they sell stuff!

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The Maxwells isolate themselves so much that they have no idea that their communication comes across as so stilted and strange. Steve is so utterly convinced that he's the only perfect person in the world that the thought would never even cross his mind.

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I have an 8 y.o. daughter and I've never had a problem with her conversing with strangers. But she is usually pretty shy with people she doesn't know well. So while I don't see a problem with my kid thanking someone when complimented, I have never forced her or been disappointed when she has remained quiet. She has come out of her shell little by little over the years in a way she never would had we tried to push her. I know Steve couldn't possibly grasp the concept of a child having her own way of dealing, which is sad.

And word on the sheer arrogance of his statement on others' conversation skills. No way can I buy that his sheltered family is superior in that department.

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Plus if you're actually offended when a 5-year-old is too shy to talk to you, there is something wrong with YOU, not that child.

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Plus if you're actually offended when a 5-year-old is too shy to talk to you, there is something wrong with YOU, not that child.

Seriously. My niece is almost 7, knows me very well, and still only responds to me about half the time. I just back off when she's in a bashful mood.

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I have never had a medical professional ask my kids what their opinion is re. a treatment. Is it possible the ortho., seeing how they were dressed, maybe seeing a very submissive attitude from Mary, was worried something weird was going on in the Maxwell house and wanted to engage Mary?

I was always asked how I felt about what was going on when I was the doctor's or dentist's. They talked to me and not just to my mom. I don't think it's that odd - the kids are the patients, not the parents.

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I was always asked how I felt about what was going on when I was the doctor's or dentist's. They talked to me and not just to my mom. I don't think it's that odd - the kids are the patients, not the parents.

My first thought on reading this is that the doctor had a sense something was off with Mary & Teri. Doctors ask how my kids feel about what is about to happen but I have never had a doctor engage my young kids on something so difficult to understand- or with such force as Steve described

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Thanks, Miggy, for taking one for the team. Steve is obviously growing more desperate by the day - this just reeks of it.

I love the reek of desperation in the morning. :lol:

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Chapter 1: Good or Bad Conversations

We start with some examples of bad conversationalists: a five year old girl who refuses to speak to an unknown lady in a grocery store, a teenage boy who only gives minimal answers to a doctor, a young man who has trouble asking a girls father for permission to court and a young wife and mother who, when her husband arrives home from work, tells him about her day was instead of listening to him and serving him a nice dinner. THESE PEOPLE ARE BAD. Steve tells us what each of them should have said. The five year old, on being complemented on her hair by a stranger, should have said "Thank you. My mommy likes to sometimes make pigtails for me. My name is Cynthia. What's your name?"

Gasp! How dare a mere woman speak first! She should have been kneeling beside Steve's chair with slippers, downcast eyes and a simpering smile.

A better example would've been a bombastic blowhard male who forces everyone in his family to listen to his endless diatribes from dawn to dusk.

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Chapter 3: Are Conversation Skills Important?

Mrs Monroe takes cookies to a new neighbour, Mrs Jones. There is a conversation where Mrs J does all the talking. This is BAD!

Now another version. Mrs Monroe knocks on the door. Mrs Jones answers and is polite, thanks her for the cookies and asks about her family. "I would love to take a minute to hear about your family". Mrs Monroe answers with more detail then I would want in an introduction "Bob & I have been married for twelve years, and God has blessed us with four children so far. The children range from age ten down to three, and we are expecting another one in August." (Punctuation as it appears in the original despite my grammar check thing attempting to change it.) The conversation then wanders around to homeschooling and how wonderful it is. This is a GOOD conversation. Apparently these two ladies, unlike the first two, will now become friends. (In my world rather than Steve's, I always go and greet a new neighbour with cake or biscuits but don't expect conversation. It's really stressful moving house and I don't expect anyone to play the perfect hostess. I also don't think they need details about my million plus children or their education.)

Conversation is important. Bible quote about saying only good things so that "it may minister grace unto the hearers".

Paragraphs that begin with the word "because" are really starting to bug me and I'm only on page 40. The number of commas is getting quite amusing - might start a tally.

Conversation is important in courtship. A man has no hope of being successful in courtship if he is unable to converse clearly with his potential father-in-law (What the ...?) oh, and the girl. "The more they talk and share deep heart feelings, the closer they become emotionally. In general, relationships will either be enhanced or degraded based on the quality of the conversations within them." (I thought Maxwell offspring were suppose to marry as soon as possible after meeting. Maybe this advice is aimed at less perfect families.)

Weird paragraph about how we see people in cars driving but we don't know them because we don't have "the opportunity to engage them in conversation". Apparently blasting your car horn hinders the building of relationships and Steve has a Proverbs quote to prove this point. The whole paragraph doesn't make sense to me and I can see its relevance in the context of the chapter.

Two pages of lecture on being open in family. I am not sure what Steve means by "dialoging with different parts of the body" but it gave the immature part of me a giggle. I may use this term instead of sweet fellowship now.

Every paragraph has one bible verse. It feels to me like they found the bible verses and wrote the paragraphs around them rather than using the bible verse to back up their point. It feels very disjointed as you read.

"Variety is the spice of life. We believe that as you look at your days, you might agree that conversations are the key to providing variety." (Well, nothing else changes in Maxhell ...)

Conversation will improve success in small business. One page of made up conversation to prove the point.

Conversation will help build new relationships. One page of Steve talking to a man in a hardware shop.

Now the scary one: How will conversation skills help in being salt or light? Short lecture on being the salt and the light in the world. Our example this time is Mary talking to a salesperson in Sam's.

Lady: What grade are you in?

Mary: Tenth grade.

Lady: Where are you going to go for college?

Mary: I am not planning to go to college. I would like to be a wife and mother someday. In the meantime, I am studying art so I can illustrate children's books. I can do that at home and save all the money that college costs while not being exposed to the negative influences of college.

Again ... WHAT THE ?! Oh Mary, I cry for you.

Steve thinks Mary has done a great job of setting an example to the lady in the shop.

This chapters exercise is to read it aloud and discuss. Me, I am going to go and say a prayer for each of the Maxwell children.

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The book should be titled "How To Talk At People: Steve Maxwell's Guide to Condensation."

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Now the scary one: How will conversation skills help in being salt or light? Short lecture on being the salt and the light in the world. Our example this time is Mary talking to a salesperson in Sam's.

Lady: What grade are you in?

Mary: Tenth grade.

Lady: Where are you going to go for college?

Mary: I am not planning to go to college. I would like to be a wife and mother someday. In the meantime, I am studying art so I can illustrate children's books. I can do that at home and save all the money that college costs while not being exposed to the negative influences of college.

Again ... WHAT THE ?! Oh Mary, I cry for you.

This made me incredibly sad. I'm thinking of my friend's daughter who's in her senior year at RISD. You could tell from the time she was a toddler that she had an incredible gift and a passion for art, talents that were nurtured by her parents. She took classes in theory, art history and technique (she was often the youngest person in the class by a lot), she was mentored by other artists, she loved going to museums--trips that were a family affair. She spent summers in Europe to further her knowledge and talent and was always fully immersed in the art world. After a bit of adjustment, she thrived in college (which was worth every single penny, as far as her parents are concerned) and as a result of all of this study and nurturing, she is one of the most gifted young artists I've ever met and has already had success as a book illustrator.

THIS what it is to study art, Steve. Not sitting at home, at best doing rote exercises from a book (Remember those old "artist test" ads that used to appear on matchook covers? "If you can copy this drawing of Peter Parrot you too can be an artist!") or getting "lessons" from the nice lady down the road with her "little talent," whose vision and experience is as limited as yours. Mary's art, such that it is (and based on what we've seen, it's exactly what you would expect), will be as empty, pedestrian and uninformed as her sister Sarah's writing, dead on arrival. But then, it's only THOSE books she'll be allowed to illustrate so I guess it really doesn't matter.

One of your kids could potentially discover the cure for cancer, Steve. And you don't give a shit. Fuck you all the way to the hell you deserve.

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Mary's speech in that conversation sounded awkward and fake. It didnt sound like real speech that would be by a 17 year old in a casual setting. Like pretty much everything else the Maxwell "kids" write. It is not a good example of a great conversation, she comes across as very socially awkward, and I bet the person she was talking to noticed.

The Maxwells arent great conversationalists, they come across as so stilted and awkward in speech, and also are so immature compared to others their age. Youre not teaching your kids to be great conversationalists if every interaction people have with them ends with the other person trying to work out if the awkwardly speaking adult who still lives with mommy and daddy acts like that because their parents raised them in a bubble, or whether its because they have some form of disability and are not actually capable of looking after themselves.

They have done a terrible job of raising their kids, and I really dont see why people look up to them as something to aspire to. If at the end of 31 years of parenting, the result is an adult who is still pretty much a 12 year old, you have gone wrong somewhere. It also reinforces the stereotype that homeschoolers are all socially awkward weirdos who dont have any friends, and not an advertisement for homeschooling their way.

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Steve gives us an example of Anna trying to talk to a sixteen year old girl and only getting single word answers. He says it should be easy for two sixteen year old girls to talk. (In my experience sixteen year old girls do not talk to people trying to sell their parents stuff.)

I might even go wider than that - in my experience people are usually reluctant to talk to people whom they can TELL are pushing an agenda of any kind. Okay. Well, the Maxwells are a combination of pushy proselytizing religious people AND the hard sell. Agenda squared! Danger danger, don't poke the bear and just back off slowly! :hand: And the BS meter on teenagers can be finely tuned. So yeah Steve, I'm not so surprised people give the short brush-off answers.

My first thought exactly. Isn't he the one who is protecting his family from the ebil world by segregating them from anyone not exactly like them because the world is such a dangerous place?

Actually this fits with his views, I think - in a weird way. The trick is that he thinks the kids need these superior conversational skills so that when they DO run into outside people, they can immediately take control of the conversation so that THEY will be the ones directing it and influencing the other party. As he said, they need to have good conversational skills so they can preach at people.

The hilarious thing is he's calling this "conversation" - on the surface, sure. But his goals are all about ONE WAY communication.

In "Protecting Our Children's Hearts" they write of how they interact with other extended family. They didn't refuse to mix entirely, but rather they made sure the mixing happened on Steve's turf and with one of the main-family Maxwell adults there at all times, specifically so they could control all the interactions. Steve wrote that having these people over (as entire families, of course) provided a great opportunity to witness and preach at them. Can't help but wonder how THAT was received... "come on over for hot dogs and oh yes, we'll preach at you for an hour!" Just Say No... :hand:

As for the gas station, it sounds like this was an old-timey family-run local station? If it is, with Dad owning it and the kid helping for the summer (or similarly some uber Christian neighbor friend of Dad) then it'd fit in the Moodyverse pretty well, I think. How common that is, is another question. But somehow the way he tells the story it doesn't sound like your normal 16 year-old getting a part time stocking job down at the corporate Marathon station by the highway.

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Mary's speech in that conversation sounded awkward and fake. It didnt sound like real speech that would be by a 17 year old in a casual setting. Like pretty much everything else the Maxwell "kids" write. It is not a good example of a great conversation, she comes across as very socially awkward, and I bet the person she was talking to noticed.

The Maxwells arent great conversationalists, they come across as so stilted and awkward in speech, and also are so immature compared to others their age. Youre not teaching your kids to be great conversationalists if every interaction people have with them ends with the other person trying to work out if the awkwardly speaking adult who still lives with mommy and daddy acts like that because their parents raised them in a bubble, or whether its because they have some form of disability and are not actually capable of looking after themselves.

They have done a terrible job of raising their kids, and I really dont see why people look up to them as something to aspire to. If at the end of 31 years of parenting, the result is an adult who is still pretty much a 12 year old, you have gone wrong somewhere. It also reinforces the stereotype that homeschoolers are all socially awkward weirdos who dont have any friends, and not an advertisement for homeschooling their way.

Because this is exactly who these people want their kids to be- they are breeding an army for Jesus, critical thinking skills need not apply. That is what we always seem to miss and don't understand- this is exactly what they want.

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The lack of the use of contractions in verbs leads me to believe that they are somehow related to Peggy Hill, who is well noted for her frequent cry, "I do not permit verbs to be contracted in this family!"

Woe betide the Maxfan who tries to ape the speech styles modeled in this book. If I had just moved into a new neighborhood and had been told by a lady bearing a fruitcake that she was giving me a few minutes to tell her about my family, and I tried to copy that speech as a mother of three under 10 with one on the way .... I would collapse into a sobbing heap, right there in the doorway. Surrounded by unopened boxes.

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Every paragraph has one bible verse. It feels to me like they found the bible verses and wrote the paragraphs around them rather than using the bible verse to back up their point. It feels very disjointed as you read.

Isn't this their whole approach to life in general? If you spend 2 or 3 of your waking hours poring over an ancient and supposedly profound text looking for personal guidance, of course things are going to jump out at you. Gothard teaches about the importance of 'rhemas' which sound very much like the same thing, except that it seems that in Gothard circles 'rhemas' are personal and to be applied especially to an individual. Steve Maxwell's 'rhemas' are supposedly God speaking to the whole of Christianity through Steve.

I think the recipe for a Maxwell book goes something like this: A 'rhema' a day (or maybe just a couple a week) cobbled together with a good dose of Steve's arrogance and need for control, then add a measure of mediocre writing and a little proof-reading (do not attempt to substitute with editing). Walla. (Serve with a daggy cover and several transparent blog posts desparate to drum up enthusiasm and improve sales.)

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