More Appalling Gothard Child-Training Craziness

[spinsterwv]

More on the Spiritual test.

http://lifeinconflict.blogspot.com/2008 ... -your.html

I'll bet all the menly men want to be prophets. And they are all assholes. I imagine women can't be prophets.

I think I'd rather go to Hogwarts.

[Sydney Fox]

More on the Spiritual test.

http://lifeinconflict.blogspot.com/2008 ... -your.html

I'll bet all the menly men want to be prophets. And they are all assholes. I imagine women can't be prophets.

I think I'd rather go to Hogwarts.

Apparently women can be prophets. Here is the intro to the site I quoted earlier

Here goes, the "Mother's Panel":

>>>Friday Mothers' Panel

Mary Craig

Jerri Dee Flage

Greer Llewellyn

Lori Voeller

Greer-I have 9 children from 18 years to 11 months. We live in Rockville,

Maryland. I'm an exhorter.

Jerri Dee-I'm a prophet married to an exhorter and my 6 children are 11 to 2

years and we're from Minneapolis.

Mary-I live on South Campus Indy, I have 5 children from 23 to 10 and we

work with alot of other children.

Lori-I now live in Oak Brook, we have 8 children our oldest is 22 and

youngest 3. I'm an exhorter.

[lemonhead]

Thank you formergothardite and lemonhead. I figured it must be some sort of Gothard-speak. Is it normal to introduce yourself by your "gifts" when dealing with other Gothardites?

IME, in our little church and fundy circle, it was common to discuss one's spiritual gift, and further it was implied that certain gifts (prophet, organizer, teacher) were favored or held higher status--and (not coincidentally) were often attributed to men in the church. Mercy, servant, exhorter, and giver were seen as more "female" gifts and therefore attributed less standing in the church. I do think it would have been scandalous for a woman to be categorized as "prophet" in our group, for example.

[bananacat]

Why would you even want kids to turn out like that? For all they accuse the rest of us for being selfish, isn't it really selfish to have a goal of pretending your kids simply do not exist for the time you want to socialize or host a dinner party? They're people; not things that can just be put away when you don't feel like dealing with them.

[Bookworm]

This is the stuff they don't put in the seminar manuals that might someday make their way onto ebay or amazon for resale. That's why it's so hard to document and look out for. Honestly, this turns my stomach. And as proof of how well this type of indoctrination and punishment works on kids, to this day I cannot feel sad that I grew up with Gothard teachings, but I can cry over other kids having to survive through it. I simply learned how to dissociate and turn it all off, and it's very very difficult to unlearn dissociation. These parents either have no fucking clue how much harm they are doing, or they get off on the control and manipulation of people who are smaller and weaker than they are.

My parents were influenced by Gothardism and Focus on the Family "strong willed child" stuff, but they didn't spank nearly as much as many of these families. I was spanked the most out of all of the kids, mainly because at a very young age (I think about 4) I decided that if I didn't cry they would give up and find some other way to punish me. Meanwhile, my mother had had it drilled into her that she was supposed to spank until tears appeared. Fortunately she had decent motherly instincts and did not end up following that advice, but it was only recently that I realized it was at that age that I taught myself how to dissociate. I had dealt with covert panic attacks for years, that only went away when I realized they were panic attacks, and had realized that I was really good at dissociating in stressful situations. It's been a LOT of work to learn to be present. I hope you continue to get in touch with your emotions, lemonhead. Dissociation is an amazing tool when you are a kid, but as an adult it's really worth the effort to unlearn it.

[August]

My friend has a three week old. She's a tiny little bundle of relexes who prefers to look at the blinds than anything else and does that wild open mouthed head waggle when she's hungry, expecting a nipple to appear with milk. I just can't even imagine how evil someone has to be to beat such a tiny creature.

[MajorMajor]

Every time I read this bullshit I want to squeeze my little boy extra tight. He is so happy and carefree. I would be heartbroken if his spirit was crushed. I don't understand how a parent can do these things to their "blessings." I really think if there was a god he wouldn't give these monsters children.

[lawlifelgbt]

Shit, I live in Minneapolis! Does anyone know who "Jerri Dee" is? Better yet, I'd like a photo. So then if I ever see her (not likely because I live right by teh ebil university), I could tell her what for!

[lawlifelgbt]

Also, I was talking to my best friend about Pearl and those methods last night, and Hana and Immanuel.

*Pulls out his smartphone, Googles*: "Is this the mother****er?"

"Yeah, that's him."

"He should have his beard cut off. And then his head! Or, design robots that would swat him every time HE left a blanket. Forever!"

Then we talked about Pavlov's "learned helplessness" experiments (giving dogs painful, frequent, random, shocks). Eventually, the dogs gave up trying to stop them or get away and just let it happen. That's what "child training" really does.

[lizziesmom]

Speaking of the dog training, do you remember the study that was done with subjects supposedly connected to a machine that shocked them? The people's behavior actually being observed were those who controlled the amount of 'pain' being given. Unfortunately, the majority of those got off on administering more and more juice and increasing the pain. These parents would probably fall in that group.

[FloraKitty35]

Someday, hopefully one of their children will gift them with the same treatment when they are elderly and incapacitated.

[lawlifelgbt]

Milgram experiments? Yes. There was also the Stanford prison experiment (Google it). Reading about that and thinking about fundies makes me think...they are their kids' jailers, and can be just as sadistic, if not more!

[flyawaystray]

I don't even like disciplining my rabbits.

(Saying "HEY!" in a loud tone, that's about it)

I can't imagine hitting a child. My parents would tell me "spare the rod, spoil the child" ALL the time and getting hit/spanked was traumatizing because my dad was kinda rough. There are better ways to discipline, blanket training is an awful idea.

[August]

Speaking of the dog training, do you remember the study that was done with subjects supposedly connected to a machine that shocked them? The people's behavior actually being observed were those who controlled the amount of 'pain' being given. Unfortunately, the majority of those got off on administering more and more juice and increasing the pain. These parents would probably fall in that group.

That experiment didn't show they got off on it, it showed that despite serious misgivings they followed authority. But they were not torturing their own children.

This podcast is pretty interesting http://www.radiolab.org/2012/jan/09/

[awmom]

Speaking of the dog training, do you remember the study that was done with subjects supposedly connected to a machine that shocked them? The people's behavior actually being observed were those who controlled the amount of 'pain' being given. Unfortunately, the majority of those got off on administering more and more juice and increasing the pain. These parents would probably fall in that group.

What's interesting about those studies actually, is that people really didn't like administering the painful shocks (obviously they weren't really doing that, but they believed they were). If you see the actual video clips of the subjects, lots of them are begging the experimenter to let them stop and the experimenter would say "the experiment must continue" and "I take full responsibility" etc. Almost nobody *wanted* to keep shocking the other person, but they felt obligated to continue because they had agreed to the experiment and a person in authority told them they had to. What's really remarkable is the number of people who refused to participate given the set-up and the high value placed on authority in our culture. I have always connected those experiments with people who systematically (as in, not just in an emotional moment) physically abuse their children to get perfect compliance. I think they have all sorts of cognitive distortions to justify it and eventually habituate to the unnatural practice of hurting their own children, but I think the genesis of it (for MOST people, not all) is being a member of a super authoritarian culture that says this is the way it MUST be done. I don't think my parents would ever have hit us as children if they hadn't been totally indoctrinated into the Dobson way of thinking about children. I don't think my Mom would ever delight in causing pain to a child but she still says things about my 2 year old like "wow, I can't believe he listens so well when you've never even hit him!"

[awmom]

Why would you even want kids to turn out like that? For all they accuse the rest of us for being selfish, isn't it really selfish to have a goal of pretending your kids simply do not exist for the time you want to socialize or host a dinner party? They're people; not things that can just be put away when you don't feel like dealing with them.

Exactly! Why oh why would you want a baby that doesn't cry? That's their only means of communication. I always say that I am a way better Mom than I am a gardener because, unfortunately, my plants don't cry loudly when they need something. I LIKE that my kids can tell me when they are hungry/lonely/tired/wet. I hate that they are so arrogant as to think that their children shouldn't be able to express discomfort in any way that might be inconvenient or annoying :angry-banghead:

[Sydney Fox]

Exactly! Why oh why would you want a baby that doesn't cry? That's their only means of communication. I always say that I am a way better Mom than I am a gardener because, unfortunately, my plants don't cry loudly when they need something. I LIKE that my kids can tell me when they are hungry/lonely/tired/wet. I hate that they are so arrogant as to think that their children shouldn't be able to express discomfort in any way that might be inconvenient or annoying :angry-banghead:

This is so true. I do everything in my power to make sure my kids are happy, well fed and loved. I feel actual physical pain when they are not well or are unhappy. My poor plants don't have the same effect on me though and they suffer because of it.

To cause my children pain and suffering for my own convenience is something I cannot even fathom. It's my job to love and accept them for who they are, no matter what mood they are in. Children are not meant to be perfect little robots whose only purpose is to serve.

[jenny_islander]

Some of these child training creeps actually talk about teaching babies "servanthood" by forcing them to wait some arbitrary time before their cries for help are answered--as if babies knew a damn thing about clocks and could predict an end to the torment.

Yup. Presented with strangers to the world, who are hungry, thirsty, naked, sick, and imprisoned by their own helpless bodies without end unless somebody chooses to help them (Matt. 25:31-46), these child trainers talk about teaching the babies to be self-sacrificing and put the welfare of others ahead of their own.

It's all about being the God of your own tiny and tightly controlled world.

[PurpleSheepleEater]

They believe that thinking for yourself and doing what you want is of the devil. That's why they hit babies. Baby wants to be awake? EVIL!!! Baby must submit to authority (parents) so that as it gets older it will submit to God, which is really just another authority like parents or pastors telling them what to do. The spirit must be broken early and often in order to get full obedience.

It's a sick sick system. I have observed parents hitting infants. I have seen nursery workers in fundie churches be abusive to babies and toddlers with the permission of their parents. It's a disgusting system. One of the many reasons I cannot find one good thing in these Duggar or Bates or any of the rest of them. They methodically beat children. It's horrifying.

[ems]

IME, in our little church and fundy circle, it was common to discuss one's spiritual gift, and further it was implied that certain gifts (prophet, organizer, teacher) were favored or held higher status--and (not coincidentally) were often attributed to men in the church. Mercy, servant, exhorter, and giver were seen as more "female" gifts and therefore attributed less standing in the church. I do think it would have been scandalous for a woman to be categorized as "prophet" in our group, for example.

Didn't Kelly Crawford say she had the gift of prophecy?

Although obviously not the gift of humility...

[RosyDaisy]

I'm going to have nightmares after reading this. The very fact this kind of "discipline" is carried out with a calm, cool demeanor makes it more sinister than a parent beating a child out of anger or rage.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I'm going to have nightmares after reading this. The very fact this kind of "discipline" is carried out with a calm, cool demeanor makes it more sinister than a parent beating a child out of anger or rage.

Yeah, its creepy. Imagine having the shit beat out of you with someone who has a calm smile on their face, as if they were going out to pick flowers and look at rainbows. They also have no idea when it is going to happen as well, usually you can at least tell when someone is going to start getting violent because their body language changes and they have an angry look on their face, or they appear drunk or on drugs or something. With abusive fundies, its the creepy smile and Michelle Duggar baby voice all the time, you can tell whether theyre going to hit you or hug you.

I imagine that can also really mess you up emotionally-if you ban all expressions of emotion and even when youre angry enough to hit people have the same calm expression, how is a kid going to even learn how to recognise their own emotions and know how to express them...or recognise other peoples emotions. Unless thats what they want-complete emotional control. You cant tell others how you feel if you dont know how to express emotion or have words for how you feel. Also if you teach them to be indifferent to other peoples feelings to the point where you can beat someone up with a smile, it makes it easier to pass on the cycle of abuse, as by the time theyre old enough to have kids, theyre already numb enough emotionally not to feel bad about beating a baby.

[PurpleSheepleEater]

Being void of emotion is considered a good thing in fundie circles. They often preach about not letting emotions get in the way. Obedience to God, to your husband, your dad, that is all that matters.

[RosyDaisy]

Being void of emotion is not godly or Christ-like in any way. It's sinister and evil.

[luv2run]

I'm laying here with my beautiful 4 month old, and sick to

my stomach at the thought of what these people are doing to sweet little babies. I seriously can't think about it because its just too awful. Wretched people.