More Appalling Gothard Child-Training Craziness

[Sydney Fox]

I was over on the Niednagel Facebook pages (I'm a little obsessed with them) and was thinking about Danielle Voeller Niednagel. I remembered that there had been some sort of scandal involving her father Jim, who was big with Gothard ministries, having an affair with his secretary and leaving his wife Lori and their 8 kids. I googled Jim and Lori and came upon a site that quoted some of their child-raising tips from a Gothard discussion group in 1999. The discussion group promotes blanket training, beating babies as young as six months, and not giving kids any time to play.

 

Here is the site I got it off of:

 

democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4173778

 

The quoted discussion group is about half-way down the page.

 

Here they talk about beating 6 month old babies

 

 

Quote

***Lori-We learned about spanking babies. WE learned about disciplning a child

with a rod at the age of 6 months, when the weeds are very little we pluck

them out. We use a 1/4 inch wooden dowel when they are 6 months. If you

ignore those weeds then by the time they are toddlers you have to do

something drastic. WE learned that if we started when they were babies, they

were so much more obedient in coming and sitting and being quiet. OUr goal

was that they be able to sit quietly for 2 hours on Sunday morning. Now

it has been a joy.

I have learned that just one whack on a baby's bottom is not enough, it is 5

or 6 whacks. I found I was spankiing my children a whole lot less when I

did it right the first time.

***Jim-You get more fruit by spanking very young and not having to do it so

hard.

***Mary-I have spanked a little one-PRov. 13:24 "chasten your son betimes" and

the word betimes means from the womb from the dawn. The idea is to be very

alert right from the beginning what is needful of a spanking.

Jim-What is the answer for getting a child to go to bed at night?

Jerri Dee-You could always try chocolate chips! LOL. On my first baby I

didn't have a clue and she wouldnt' go down and I'd be so frustrated and

angry. By my fifth child someone taught me how to train my child to put her

head down from 3 or 4 weeks old, I encourage them with the tone of my

voice..

At around 6 months I would get down and look through the crib bars with them

and smile at them and say, "heady down, heady down" and I would wait to see

if they would lay down and if I noticed their head coming up I would switch

them on the bottom and say, "heady down." I woulud try to give them the

sense of my omnipresence by sneaking away and then checking on them when

they thought I wasn't looking.

 

Michelle Duggar talks about blanket training, but Lori Voeller explains exactly how it is done.

 

 

Quote

***Lori -- (on blanket training) I Cor. 14:40 "let all things be done decently

and in order" and I remember one day trying to teach the CCC and getting

alot of distractions and I just began to cry. I cried out to the Lord and I

think blankiet training is just a lifesaver for a homeschooling family.

I had gotten some training on how to teach a baby not to touch a plant so I

wondered if I could teach a baby to sit on a blanket and not touch the

carpet. So at about 6 months I put them on the blanket and I am there with

a paint paddle and when the baby touches the carpet I spank the hand. First

I go around the carpet and spank the carpet on all four sides and say, "no

touch, no touch." This spanking just gives content to my words.

This whole process is done so speedily---I have the baby on the blanket, the

2 1/2 year old on the blanket and I can teach in peace. WE've even gone to

dinner parties and put the child on the blanket and it's like there is a 10

foot wall around that blanket!

When I met Jerri Dee, her baby was all over the place, but JErri DEe gave

her blanket training. When Jerri Dee came to visit me later her baby sat on

the blanket and let us talk for 1 1/2 hours and did not make a sound that

entire time.

***Jerri Dee-They are not unhappy on the blanket. Everyone's spirit is so free

and so happy because there is order. When Mommy is upset and fretful that

is much worse.

 

Here Lori explains her views on play.

 

Quote

***Lori-Something that made an change in our household that in colonial days

children between the ages of 8 and 10 were encouraged to turn away from

playfulness but toward work. We are to do our work heartily unto the Lord,

not unto our pleasures (legos).

We had a "play fast." IT was for one week and then we tried it another

week. So we've adopted the old-fashioned idea that children play on

Saturday afternoon only.

 

I know we've covered a lot of what is said here, but I don't remember ever seeing this particular piece before. The cruelty and abuse I read about here makes me wonder about Danielle Voeller Niednagel and how she is raising her kids. I can only assume that she is implementing many of her parents' techniques. So sad.

[formergothardite]

I did not realize that the Voellers had split up. I think my parents had a cookbook(?) by them. It was one of the last ATI things they bought.

Training a 3 week old to put its head down and sleep on command is horrible. Hitting a six month old with an object is horrible. Having a play fast is horrible. These people hate children.

[Sydney Fox]

I did not realize that the Voellers had split up. I think my parents had a cookbook(?) by them. It was one of the last ATI things they bought.

Training a 3 week old to put its head down and sleep on command is horrible. Hitting a six month old with an object is horrible. Having a play fast is horrible. These people hate children.

Apparently he left Lori in 2001, shortly before an IBLP Homeschooling Conference. I agree, these are people who don't like children. I can only imagine the effects on the children's brains from not being allowed to explore and play.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Children play on Saturday afternoon only?? Spanking 6 month olds??? Spanking 3 week olds???

The evil evil assholes, they do not deserve to have children.

Play is important to children. They learn a lot from play, so saying you dont let children play is like saying you dont let children learn. Even a baby dropping a toy out of his stroller is learning-theyre learning about gravity, that when you drop something, it always falls downwards. While playing, children learn a lot about the world. They develop an imagination, test out adult roles (like playing house, playing with dolls, pretending to do jobs like be a doctor or teacher), and use it to explore different situations in their own safe way. They learn about logic and problem solving by playing with puzzles and stuff. They learn about teamwork and sharing by playing together and taking turns. It is also good exercise for children. They gain a lot of motor skills from playing-running around, throwing and kicking balls, painting, doing craft projects, putting lego pieces together...

[jenny_islander]

I am not even going to get into the baby beating. But let's look at playing only on Saturdays--from primary sources.

Winslow Homer, 1872, children's activities after a Godly time in the Godly little red schoolhouse:

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/50.41

Oh, look, they're playing crack-the-whip. On a weekday.

Godlie Merrie Olde Englande:

http://www.corbisimages.com/stock-photo ... en-playing

The only people working in this picture are the parents. The kids are happily making a mess of the hay they just piled up. And nobody seems to have a problem with it. Also note that the girls are ganging up on the boy and nobody has a problem with that either!

Yet again, fundamentalists have drastically exceeded the Ye Olde Godlye past they claim to venerate and imitate.

Let's hope they don't decide that this is Godly:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coaltub.png

[JMarie]

I feel sick after reading this.

[Sydney Fox]

I feel sick after reading this.

I know. I had heard about so much of their child-rearing practices, but so many sites have been cleansed of their actual views. This is the first time I have heard it from the horse's mouth, and it is incredibly awful what they do to their kids.

[emesbe]

Oh, I am having fun on the 19 KAC FB page. :lol:

Who knew that it's perfectly okay to spank 6 month olds?? :embarrassed:

[FJismyheadship]

I don't even SWAT my eight month olds hand, much less her bottom. Why are people so cruel to their babies?

[AlexIsAwake]

If these people only allowed their children to play on Saturdays, I'd like to know what they were doing hour after hour the rest of the week? Seriously, especially the very young ones. What did a typical day actually look like in reality?

[ILoveJellybeans]

Probably taking over the parents chores while they sit and do nothing (like another fundie quote by someone who doesnt let their kids play, who admitted that she is often doing nothing while her kids work), looking after any babies in the house, homeschooling, doing Bible study and sitting on blankets staring at the walls.

[lemonhead]

This is the stuff they don't put in the seminar manuals that might someday make their way onto ebay or amazon for resale. That's why it's so hard to document and look out for. Honestly, this turns my stomach. And as proof of how well this type of indoctrination and punishment works on kids, to this day I cannot feel sad that I grew up with Gothard teachings, but I can cry over other kids having to survive through it. I simply learned how to dissociate and turn it all off, and it's very very difficult to unlearn dissociation. These parents either have no fucking clue how much harm they are doing, or they get off on the control and manipulation of people who are smaller and weaker than they are.

[littlemommy]

I just don't get it...don't they love their babies at all? Even a little bit? I get soooooo frustrated with my kids sometimes. Like teeth gritting, steam-coming-out-of-my-ears frustrated. But never has "Well, I'll just beat them into submission with this effing dowel rod" seemed like a good idea.

[Sydney Fox]

I've got a question for those of you in the know. The "panelists" on the original site introduce themselves as prophets and exhorters. What exactly does this mean?

[lizziesmom]

I don't even SWAT my eight month olds hand, much less her bottom. Why are people so cruel to their babies?

These are the same people who collect babies like marbles and are opposed to any kind of birth control. There is something inherently 'off' IMO.

[formergothardite]

I've got a question for those of you in the know. The "panelists" on the original site introduce themselves as prophets and exhorters. What exactly does this mean?

Gothard's spiritual gifts. I was a mercy. Or when I took the test it was confusing so they just made me a mercy and called it a day. Prophets and Exhorters are usually assholes and justify it by saying that that is their spiritual gift.

lifeinconflict.blogspot.com/2008/12/spiritual-gifts-pt15-pinpointing-your.html

[lemonhead]

I've got a question for those of you in the know. The "panelists" on the original site introduce themselves as prophets and exhorters. What exactly does this mean?

Gothardites go through a sort of spiritual personality test (or maybe more like the sorting hat at Hogwarts LOL), where everyone gets "sorted" into various spiritual gifts and pigeon-holed accordingly. Prophet, exhorter, server, teacher, giver, organizer, and mercy are the options.

[julie paradox]

I think some of them genuinely don't realise what they're doing. This quote, for example:

...When Jerri Dee came to visit me later her baby sat on the blanket and let us talk for 1 1/2 hours and did not make a sound that entire time.

***Jerri Dee-They are not unhappy on the blanket. Everyone's spirit is so free and so happy because there is order.

It's scary, and the methods used to reach it are disturbing, but it's only an extrapolation of what practically everyone asked me about my baby: "Is he good?" - meaning, how much does he cry?

There's a deep-seated belief that our mission with a baby is to make sure they are "good" at all times, and that crying and wriggling and not sleeping very much and trying to interact with us when we want to do something else are not "good".

In my country continual smacking is seen as relatively low-status and implements are illegal, but in a group that reinforces the idea that it's not only Useful but Imperative it would be a strong-minded mother who decided she wasn't going to use it when her child wasn't "good".

[Sydney Fox]

Thank you formergothardite and lemonhead. I figured it must be some sort of Gothard-speak. Is it normal to introduce yourself by your "gifts" when dealing with other Gothardites?

[formergothardite]

Thank you formergothardite and lemonhead. I figured it must be some sort of Gothard-speak. Is it normal to introduce yourself by your "gifts" when dealing with other Gothardites?

When I was involved it was. In my memory the test was super stupid.

[AnnieC 305]

Michelle Duggar talks about blanket training, but Lori Voeller explains exactly how it is done.

A paint paddle? Do they mean a paint stir stick?

http://www.paintpaddle.com/paintpaddle.jpg

Because I have used those as paddles - on grown men. And had them used on me, and let me tell you, they hurt. There is no way on this earth I would use them on a 6 month old!

I swear I'd like to get just one of these idiots under my cane, we'll see how they like to be swatted until they stop crying.

[SamuraiKatz]

A paint paddle? Do they mean a paint stir stick?

http://www.paintpaddle.com/paintpaddle.jpg

Because I have used those as paddles - on grown men. And had them used on me, and let me tell you, they hurt. There is no way on this earth I would use them on a 6 month old!

I swear I'd like to get just one of these idiots under my cane, we'll see how they like to be swatted until they stop crying.

Yep that is it. The red state child correction stick. :x

[CynicMom]

That personality test looks interesting. A question for those in the know: "prophet" and "exhorter" seem stereotypically male while "mercy" and "server" seem stereotypically female. The others seem kind of mixed. Were boys and girls subtly encouraged to pick appropriate categories? Were people's categories allowed to change over time? Were some categories considered more high-status than others? For example, if a teacher and exhorter had a conflict could they use their categories to resolve it?

[Sydney Fox]

When I was involved it was. In my memory the test was super stupid.

Thank you! Just when I think I've got the Gothard thing down I learn about more weirdness.

[EyeQueue]

Gothardites go through a sort of spiritual personality test (or maybe more like the sorting hat at Hogwarts LOL), where everyone gets "sorted" into various spiritual gifts and pigeon-holed accordingly. Prophet, exhorter, server, teacher, giver, organizer, and mercy are the options.

This sounds like a more Hellish version of Divergent. With the added bonus of getting beaten with dowel rods. :?