Church Group threatened with arrest for helping homless

[jebandpunky]

http://gma.yahoo.com/church-group-membe ... ories.html

"An officer said, quite bluntly, that if we attempted to distribute food, we would be arrested," the Rev. Hugh Hollowell wrote on the group's website. "We asked the officers for permission to disperse the biscuits to the over 70 people who had lined up, waiting to eat. They said no. I had to face those who were waiting and tell them that I could not feed them, or I would be arrested."

I hope the officer loose his job and becomes homeless and when he is hungry so someone can say to him sorry your the office who denied the homeless people there biscuits and coffee so now we have none for you. :snooty:

It is shame our country as come to this .

[ThatSnark]

Downtown Raleigh, a stone's throw from where I sit. Several churches have done this all summer on a rotating basis, since the park faces the homeless shelter and the men have to leave first thing in the morning. The park is in the center of a very urban area, does not have a playground or other public features besides sidewalks, and there is no way that this group was in anyone's way. There is an enormous public outcry with lots of local news coverage-- I would imagine that there will be plenty of biscuits in the near future.

[RachelB]

It angers me how far many towns and cities have gone, in an effort to discourage homeless residents from living within their boundaries, to prevent groups from feeding people in public without a permit. Pretending that hungry people exist doesn't solve the problem of hunger-- it makes it harder to solve the problem of hunger. (The liberal enclave where I live is not immune to such nonsense.)

[ILoveJellybeans]

Isnt that what churches are supposed to do? Didnt Jesus say that people should help the poor?

[jenny_islander]

Isnt that what churches are supposed to do? Didnt Jesus say that people should help the poor?

Yes, and not the deserving poor or the well-dressed and presentable poor or the poor who recite the correct shibboleth. Just the poor. Period.

[JesusFightClub]

Ah, this sucks! There will be a crackdown on this from above, so it's not that particular copper's fault, but I hate such ordinances (and I love Food not Bombs).

We are seeing similar things here in Scotland where there are projected bans on begging and such like. I enjoy walking past beggars along the street as much as anyone (i.e not at all) but then build a fucking system where no-one needs to beg, don't penalise the beggars for doing it.

(And yeah, I know that lots of them spend it on drink and on drugs. If you have a physical addiction, you need to keep it fed or you get sick. I'd rather the bloke beginning to shake gets enough drink to stabilise him than he takes a fit when there's no-one around and dies. The reasons for them becoming addicted in the first place need addressed, not blaming the addicts for becoming so.)

[lilwriter85]

Stuff like this has happened before when churches or other groups/organizations try to help the homeless or people in need. I remember reading a news article about a woman in Atlanta who used to go to parks to give out sandwiches to homeless people and she had issues with the city government.

[lilwriter85]

Downtown Raleigh, a stone's throw from where I sit. Several churches have done this all summer on a rotating basis, since the park faces the homeless shelter and the men have to leave first thing in the morning. The park is in the center of a very urban area, does not have a playground or other public features besides sidewalks, and there is no way that this group was in anyone's way. There is an enormous public outcry with lots of local news coverage-- I would imagine that there will be plenty of biscuits in the near future.

Thanks for this additional info. It sucks that the group is getting for crap for nothing. They had their hearts to provide the men meals in the morning. There is a men's homeless shelter in my parents hometown that is assisted by Catholic parish. The Catholic parish has volunteers that make small breakfasts for the men to take when they have to leave the shelter in the morning.

[bpobst]

It gets worse. It is basically illegal to be homeless in areas of South Carolina. Columbia is instituting a "shelter" too small to hold the homeless yet you will be arrested if you go downtown or are spotted by someone who turns you in. This "shelter" has armed guards and you can't leave of your own volition.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/0 ... -homeless/

"And just to ensure that no one slips through, the city will set up a hotline so local businesses and residents can report the presence of a homeless person to police."

"Homeless people can stay at the shelter, but they’re not permitted to walk off the premises. In fact, Columbia will even post a police officer on the road leading to the shelter to ensure that homeless people don’t walk towards downtown. If they want to leave, they need to set up an appointment and be shuttled by a van."

[jebandpunky]

Ah, this sucks! There will be a crackdown on this from above, so it's not that particular copper's fault, but I hate such ordinances (and I love Food not Bombs).

We are seeing similar things here in Scotland where there are projected bans on begging and such like. I enjoy walking past beggars along the street as much as anyone (i.e not at all) but then build a fucking system where no-one needs to beg, don't penalise the beggars for doing it.

(And yeah, I know that lots of them spend it on drink and on drugs. If you have a physical addiction, you need to keep it fed or you get sick. I'd rather the bloke beginning to shake gets enough drink to stabilise him than he takes a fit when there's no-one around and dies. The reasons for them becoming addicted in the first place need addressed, not blaming the addicts for becoming so.)

They need detox and then AA/NA (got 6 years 4month here)

[JesusFightClub]

They need detox and then AA/NA (got 6 years 4month here)

Well done to you :) That is excellent!

AA/NA doesn't work for everyone, though. It depends a lot on what groups you go to and even if you can go (while I was addicted, I was given details of a 12-step group I was supposed to attend - but I was holding down a job and the group met from 1pm-3pm, Monday to Friday. :roll: )

The other thing was how the various Anonymous groups work. They can be a time to boast about all the amaaaazing and funny things you did when you were off your head. They can be Christian hymn-singing groups where the Bible is paramount and it feels like a religious group meeting. The one I went to, I was the only person who had not been in the jail (I've been in custody but not charged, and nothing was to do with my addiction) and people pretty much compared scars and "See when I was in the Bar-L" (Barlinnie prison in Scotland) type stories. That made me feel sort of weird.

There's not a one size fits all solution to addiction, IMO.

[jebandpunky]

Well done to you :) That is excellent!

AA/NA doesn't work for everyone, though. It depends a lot on what groups you go to and even if you can go (while I was addicted, I was given details of a 12-step group I was supposed to attend - but I was holding down a job and the group met from 1pm-3pm, Monday to Friday. :roll: )

The other thing was how the various Anonymous groups work. They can be a time to boast about all the amaaaazing and funny things you did when you were off your head. They can be Christian hymn-singing groups where the Bible is paramount and it feels like a religious group meeting. The one I went to, I was the only person who had not been in the jail (I've been in custody but not charged, and nothing was to do with my addiction) and people pretty much compared scars and "See when I was in the Bar-L" (Barlinnie prison in Scotland) type stories. That made me feel sort of weird.

There's not a one size fits all solution to addiction, IMO.

True true. I was talking about what is actually in the big book and it also requires an honest desire to quit. If you lack an honest desire there be nothin' to help ye!

[Ariel]

It's amazing what the general opinion of the homeless is :(

When I lived in Chicago, where there's a large population of homeless who frequent the downtown area, I heard people say awful awful things. The biggest thing I heard was that people choose to be homeless because its the easiest way to make money :roll: Or that the person asking for change on the corner goes to their own home in their own car at night :angry-banghead:

I think it's easier to ignore or dehumanize the homeless when you don't interact with them regularly. I walked past the same homeless people, in their 'territory', every week on the way to work. I can't imagine making their presence illegal or not helping them.

eta: On a positive end, there's a charity in Chicago called Back On My Feet that raises money for the homeless through running events, and does weekly runs with the homeless in order to help those experiencing homelessness to achieve a sense of power and self-sufficiency.

[jenny_islander]

So what is going to happen to them out there? Can they ever contact anybody about finding a job? Medical help? Detox help? Anything?

[ShadowyOne]

It gets worse. It is basically illegal to be homeless in areas of South Carolina. Columbia is instituting a "shelter" too small to hold the homeless yet you will be arrested if you go downtown or are spotted by someone who turns you in. This "shelter" has armed guards and you can't leave of your own volition.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/0 ... -homeless/

"And just to ensure that no one slips through, the city will set up a hotline so local businesses and residents can report the presence of a homeless person to police."

"Homeless people can stay at the shelter, but they’re not permitted to walk off the premises. In fact, Columbia will even post a police officer on the road leading to the shelter to ensure that homeless people don’t walk towards downtown. If they want to leave, they need to set up an appointment and be shuttled by a van."

Jeez, this reminds me of the "spikes" (short-term poorhouses/workhouses) that George Orwell describes in Down and Out in Paris and London. Have we really stalled so much as a society that we're trying the same old solutions that didn't work 80 years ago?

The Orwell book is a very interesting read, BTW, and I would definitely recommend it. I believe that it may be billed as fiction, but it is very autobiographical.

[curlytoes79]

The biggest thing I heard was that people choose to be homeless because its the easiest way to make money :roll: Or that the person asking for change on the corner goes to their own home in their own car at night :angry-banghead:

My favorite response to this: "If it's so easy and lucrative, then why don't you quit your job and do it? Or start begging on the weekends?"

[wild little fox]

It gets worse. It is basically illegal to be homeless in areas of South Carolina. Columbia is instituting a "shelter" too small to hold the homeless yet you will be arrested if you go downtown or are spotted by someone who turns you in. This "shelter" has armed guards and you can't leave of your own volition.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/0 ... -homeless/

"And just to ensure that no one slips through, the city will set up a hotline so local businesses and residents can report the presence of a homeless person to police."

"Homeless people can stay at the shelter, but they’re not permitted to walk off the premises. In fact, Columbia will even post a police officer on the road leading to the shelter to ensure that homeless people don’t walk towards downtown. If they want to leave, they need to set up an appointment and be shuttled by a van."

The Chief of Police in Columbia, NC does not like this new ordinance at all. He is very upset over it and it will be interesting to see how it turns out.

Shelters are not always the answer. Even the best ones can be degrading. In some of them you sleep on floor mats, inches from the person next to you. People are ill and it becomes a germ factory. Not to mention the rules that wear on a person's dignity.

I don't know what the answers are. I do know that Dignity Village in Portland, OR is very successful. It took a lot of time to become legal. But just the other day a local news station was putting pressure to get a homeless camp shut down.

[RachelB]

Jeez, this reminds me of the "spikes" (short-term poorhouses/workhouses) that George Orwell describes in Down and Out in Paris and London. Have we really stalled so much as a society that we're trying the same old solutions that didn't work 80 years ago?

The Orwell book is a very interesting read, BTW, and I would definitely recommend it. I believe that it may be billed as fiction, but it is very autobiographical.

The proposed shelter reminds me of Dickens-- "Are there no poorhouses?," etc. Someone missed the fact that you're not supposed to identify with Scrooge.

[jebandpunky]

The Chief of Police in Columbia, NC does not like this new ordinance at all. He is very upset over it and it will be interesting to see how it turns out.

Shelters are not always the answer. Even the best ones can be degrading. In some of them you sleep on floor mats, inches from the person next to you. People are ill and it becomes a germ factory. Not to mention the rules that wear on a person's dignity.

I don't know what the answers are. I do know that Dignity Village in Portland, OR is very successful. It took a lot of time to become legal. But just the other day a local news station was putting pressure to get a homeless camp shut down.

As a former Portlander I was against Tent Sh***y I mean Dignity Village. I slept beside The Burnside, Under Suicide Bridge, and at the old URS club. I felt that trying to make a homeless ghetto was absurd. I still think any homeless single (non parental presence) entity under 18 should be in a school/labor environment that is as strict as possible. If home life is sooooo abusive and intolerable then the strict regimen will seem welcome in comparison. If not then go home and deal with rules. Do not befoul Pioneer Square.

As to adults create SRO (single room occupancy) dwellings where there are abandoned buildings and put families and single adults in them.

Back to the feeding issue...I think there should never be laws against feeding the masses.

[Conuly]

Sounds like something the ACLU might be interested in. In fact, I know they already did one case like that, as listed here: http://www.aclufightsforchristians.com/

[ThatSnark]

Here's the latest: http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?secti ... id=9221622

But basically the Raleigh City Council is doing massive PR damage control since this hit national media, so they're backpedaling big time to not look like the coldhearted conservatives they are. The homeless population in the downtown has grown in recent years thanks to the job market tanking, and their presence is hampering the Council's attempts to fancy up the place-- gentrification, y'all!

What offends me most is that their initial "solution" is to treat them like stray animals, with the logic that if you don't feed them, they'll go away. These are human beings just like the privileged suits making the rules. If a church or other group wants to take the initiative to see to it that they're not hungry, that should be welcomed, not slapped down.

Remember George Bush and the thousand points of light? :roll: That idea was to take relief efforts out of government hands and privatize it, especially encouraging faith organizations to undertake social services. As a professional social worker, I had some issues with an army of well-meaning untrained people trying to do that work, but here we have an example of these people successfully meeting a basic human need and having to face dire consequences for doing so. Not OK.

[RachelB]

Here's the latest: http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?secti ... id=9221622

But basically the Raleigh City Council is doing massive PR damage control since this hit national media, so they're backpedaling big time to not look like the coldhearted conservatives they are. The homeless population in the downtown has grown in recent years thanks to the job market tanking, and their presence is hampering the Council's attempts to fancy up the place-- gentrification, y'all!

What offends me most is that their initial "solution" is to treat them like stray animals, with the logic that if you don't feed them, they'll go away. These are human beings just like the privileged suits making the rules. If a church or other group wants to take the initiative to see to it that they're not hungry, that should be welcomed, not slapped down.

Remember George Bush and the thousand points of light? :roll: That idea was to take relief efforts out of government hands and privatize it, especially encouraging faith organizations to undertake social services. As a professional social worker, I had some issues with an army of well-meaning untrained people trying to do that work, but here we have an example of these people successfully meeting a basic human need and having to face dire consequences for doing so. Not OK.

I suspect they would distinguish between a soup kitchen, where volunteers offer food indoors, and a Food Not Bombs-style public free kitchen. The problem with the public kitchen, as far as they're concerned, is that it makes poor people visible, so it makes some well-off people feel momentarily uncomfortable / guilty that they live in a society where not everyone gets enough to eat. It makes capitalism look bad, and we can't have that.

I don't like feeling guilty, either, but it's perverse to value the delicate feelings of well-off people over the basic physical needs of people who are struggling. (All those things that are illegal to do in public spaces-- sleeping, peeing, having sex, in some municipalities even eating or sitting-- criminalize people who don't have any private space of their own.)

Edited to add: Which, as a professional social worker, you of course know already. I'm just venting.

[JesusFightClub]

RachelB, all you said. Other things the homeless aren't allowed to do:

Sit too long in one place (if you sit in a park because you enjoy the happy atmosphere and you're a homeless man, you're making people feel threatened/might be a paedo, and if you sit in a city centre and you're a homeless woman, the police will move you on for begging and making people feel threatened).

Sleep outdoors peacefully (The police will move you on if you're visible)

Go into a shelter if you have a pet (no pets allowed even if they give you the only comfort and companionship you get)

Beg (aggressively is scary for everyone, but even non-aggressively is verboten because it "upsets tourists" and "drives down profits")

When you get some money, buy something you would like to have (well-dressed, nice people are allowed to buy what they like, people who smell less than gorgeous and don't look like they dressed for the occasion of going to the local shop, not so much)

It'll only get worse. I'm not expecting a wave of compassion and redistribution of wealth to come about right now, and if there was a bitter grin smiley, it'd be here.

[longskirtlotsakids]

It gets worse. It is basically illegal to be homeless in areas of South Carolina. Columbia is instituting a "shelter" too small to hold the homeless yet you will be arrested if you go downtown or are spotted by someone who turns you in. This "shelter" has armed guards and you can't leave of your own volition.

"Homeless people can stay at the shelter, but they’re not permitted to walk off the premises. In fact, Columbia will even post a police officer on the road leading to the shelter to ensure that homeless people don’t walk towards downtown. If they want to leave, they need to set up an appointment and be shuttled by a van."

Isn't that false imprisonment? And how on earth do these communities have enough in their tax coffers to pay for a cop to stand on a road? We don't have enough for our cops to fight actual crime.

[jenny_islander]

If they're really upset about people who don't look all happy peppy and well groomed sitting around downtown, why don't they use the money they were earmarking for the warehouse prison involuntary shelter to instead open a secure facility that offers free hot showers, laundry, and haircuts?

Bad teeth are a classic sign of poverty. How about subsidizing a dentist?

Vouchers for clothes at the thrift shop?

Subsidized detox for addicts? Subsidized medication for the chronically ill, so they can be well enough to work?

Or, I dunno, how about some AFFORDABLE HOUSING? Seeing as how these days quite a few homeless people already have jobs . . . :pull-hair: