Fundie Organ Donation

[Jana814]

I know someone who's father got a liver transplant, the condition from the donors family (Jewish woman never married in her 30's) was it must go to a fellow religious Jew, that was the only way they would agree.

[lemonhead]

Well, I stand corrected. I thought the process was supposed to be impartial and based on the urgency of the need. But if you can stipulate conditions for the recipient, that makes things much more complicated.

[MrsYoungie]

I can't find a video of it, but I recall when Michelle was having gall bladder attacks she didn't originally want to have it removed because "something something jesus original body parts". But after a few fierce attacks ( and I know they can be fierce) she changed her tune and had her gall bladder removed.

Anyone else remember this?

[splork]

I've never heard of any conservative or fundy church being against organ donation. The only group I've heard being against organ donation is the Jehovah's Witnesses

They're okay with organ donation now. They still have the provision that the recipient can't receive blood transfusions, so they're less than ideal candidates, but they do get transplants sometimes. Their relationship with modern medicine is really fascinating to me.

I bet, as others have said, that a lot of the people we follow seem so distrustful of hospitals in general they'd be opposed to donation because Obamacare is stealing organs. Even if they got past that, I think they would refuse to donate on the grounds that they would be helping someone who didn't share their beliefs. I would love to see a post from, say, Lori on the subject: "My brain transplant is the only moral transplant. The rest of you should have been eating more carrots."

I've never heard any younger fundie light relative or friend suggest that organ donation is bad or that bodily integrity is necessary for resurrection or anything like that, but I think that used to be a common belief years ago? At least in the South? I remember my grandmother talking about somebody being exhumed for a criminal case and she said something like that.

[ljohnson2006]

Aren't Fundies all about saving lives, and procreating? This would be right up their alley. I'm sure the sins that come with the person whose organs are received are frowned upon.

[Aine]

It isn't just fundies that have strange beliefs about organ donation. Even though a lot of people claim to be 'pro organ donation', I know that here in Australia anyway the registration rate is still low.

I recently worked on a psychology study about attitudes towards organ donation that has just been sent to journals for publication. None of the participants (over 400) came from a religion/church that was opposed to organ donation (Catholics and members of Hillsong were the largest religious groups in my sample, more were non-religious, and a reasonable number of Muslims and Hindus). That being said, at the beginning of the questionnaires when asked outright, over 90% said they agreed with organ donation. As the study progressed and things became more specific, this number dropped to about 70% and the registration rate was closer to 50%. The biggest predictors of opposition or discomfort with organ donation were a) lack of education about OD/believing some of the myths about organ donation; b) religiosity; c) disgust levels; and d) discomfort when thinking about mortality and death.

It was kind of shocking how many people got very basic true/false questions wrong about organ donation. The sample was skewed towards being college educated and higher SES and the average score in these questions was a little over 60%. A lot of people believed that doctors wouldn't try and save them if they were organ donors and also that life support would be switched off even if they weren't brain dead. Many people also believed that most of the people who were on organ donation lists had caused the problems with their body themselves (eg. lung transplants for smokers, liver transplants for alcoholics), when in Australia, people who need transplants due to lifestyle decisions have almost a 0% chance of getting one as the few organs available are prioritised to others (eg. lung transplants for cystic fibrosis). A lot of people also believed that their religion didn't support it (and used that as their main opposition) even when their religion did publicly support it. Nearly all of these participants did say that if their religion DID support it, they would likely change their views.

Organ donation is being spoken about more publicly, which is wonderful, but in Western countries we are so uncomfortable talking about death and find it all so morbid that it still isn't enough. I think education through church communities and more targeted advertising campaigns that dispel these myths could go a long way.

[ADoyle90815]

Being against organ donation because of a belief that you would need your body to be whole in the afterlife, has always puzzled me. What about people who die in violent ways like car accidents, war, house fires? Should people refuse to have cataracts removed because God won't let you in to heaven without all your original parts? I just don't understand that mindset. :shrug:

I've always been puzzled by that mindset as well, as if someone really believes in the Adam and Eve story as literal truth, then it should make sense that God wouldn't have an issue with resurrecting people without their original body parts. Those who were cremated would also easily be resurrected as cremains are basically like dust. Many devoutly religious people end up with conditions through no fault of their own that require a new organ to save their lives, but it seems like the only time fundies really care about someone is when they're in the womb.

I do think many people do believe that myth that doctors won't work as hard to save the life of an organ donor, as well as one that I heard about doctors taking organs from someone who is brain dead without consulting the family. There's also the issue that people in Western society are still uncomfortable about death to where it's more of a clinical thing than something that is a natural part of life. Sometimes, people are kept on life support when there's no hope instead of going into hospice care and being allowed to die naturally. Even if someone did sign the form to become an organ donor, they sometimes have families who are so uncomfortable or against organ donation that they refuse to allow the organs to be donated.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Nomatter how fundies feel about organ donation, you can bet that it depends on who needs one-if its someone else, they would never consider it, if it was the children or the wife, they might pray instead, but if it was the man who needed one, you can bet he will find some way to get one. I can even see a fundie patriarch forcing one of their adult kids to give them a kidney if they needed one.

[OgrePrincess]

I would think God could just... like... 3D-print me up a new spleen or whatever if I'm missing pieces when the final trumpet sounds. What about people who get eaten by sharks? Are they just S.O.L.?

[crazyforkate]

Wow, the rapture thing is just...ridiculous. If God wants you to join the party, can't He make you a new liver or heart or cornea? I mean, come on, you're the ones always going on about how all-powerful he is, fundies. Logic - not just for heathens anymore.

[bionicmlle]

I would think God could just... like... 3D-print me up a new spleen or whatever if I'm missing pieces when the final trumpet sounds. What about people who get eaten by sharks? Are they just S.O.L.?

I think we just need to keep Jesus' job as easy as possible on Resurrection Day. He obviously will have a lot of engagements and the least we could do is stay intact as much as possible. It's like waiting in the regular boarding line when you get on a Southwest flight. There's only seven days allotted for us to reach Heaven's gates, you know.

[Chicken bones]

None of my fundy family members are registered as organ donors. I always just assumed it was paranoia that if they ended up in an emergency room they'd be declared dead and harvested.

Having worked for an organ transplant agency, we try to change people's minds about using the word "harvested"...transplant teams like the term "recover" instead because of the more positive tone. And good for you, all of you who check "yes" on your drivers licenses; however, the most important thing is to let your loved ones know your wishes. No one really checks your drivers license, because it is really up to your kin to give permission. We had some very sad and some very beautiful stories we encountered at that job.

Eta:I am not using the royal "we" - I meant more our whole team :lol:

[ThrK]

My personal belief is that if you are against donating an organ than you shouldn't be eligible to receive one as it's entirely hypocritical.

I believe they have changed or are changing the organ recipient formula in Israel to take donor status into account. Basically a big F you to Hassidic Jews who won't donate but are happy to receive. I think it's awesome.

[Miggy]

I quite like the idea of heading off with Jesus to spend eternity in paradise. However, I'm counting on not taking this body with me. Let's see: the epilepsy is a bit of a drag so my brain can stay here, asthma is another hassle so I'm leaving my lungs here, there is that odd little place in my spine that hurts when it is cold so it is staying behind too. I counting on Jesus to give me a new, spiritual body. Anybody who wants the leftovers is welcome to help themselves.

[tenth muse]

My little sister had a liver transplant when in preschool, due to a genetic condition. It made quite an impact in our local community and I know that many people registered their decision to donate. Of course, in the event of death, the next of kin must consent in any case (which I don't agree with in the slightest- it's your body, you get to choose what happens to it).

Most of the fundie churches in the area were very supportive during this time and encouraged their members to think about donating. I don't see why they should be against it anyway, even if they were worried about an organ going to a 'sinner'- I mean, wouldn't that be a good thing? Giving someone a chance at life, and a chance to 'come to Jesus' before they died prematurely ?

I am one hundred per cent convinced that many of the things the crazy fundies campaign against is more to do with punishing than helping. You don't believe like us ? Then you don't get to live. You had sex in a non-approved way? Here, let us punish you by taking away reproductive rights.

Ugh.

[Patsy]

I believe they have changed or are changing the organ recipient formula in Israel to take donor status into account. Basically a big F you to Hassidic Jews who won't donate but are happy to receive. I think it's awesome.

Yep, I believe that's already in place.

If you ruined your liver through alcohol and you are still drinking, you're low on the list. If you ruined your liver through alcohol but now you're sober, and it seems likely if you got a liver, there'd be average prospects of success, then I don't think there's any "moral" consideration to your placement on the list in pretty much any western countries. It's more to do with suitability and prospects of survival + short-term and long-term non-rejection, not who "deserves" it. They don't transplant adult lungs into babies for a reason, and it's not because the babies are evil ;)

[DrWhat]

Alcoholics must be sober for 1 year in the US in order to be listed for transplant. Each organ works a little bit differently, but once you meet basic qualifications there are no adjustments to the list based on who "deserves" the organ most, morally speaking.

In my state physicians are not even allowed to bring up the topic of organ donation with families. A nurse or worker from the state donor proram is the only one allowed to do it. And it does have to do with conflict of interest, but not in the way people are afraid of. There is a lot of red tape involved in declaring brain death, so this is not a willy-nilly designation. It is mostly important because one patient in a unit may be providing organs to one or more patients in the same unit and it is easy to suggest that a doctor is trying to "get" organs for another one of her patients. It is also important to preserve anonymity in these cases.

[dawbs]

I know someone who's father got a liver transplant, the condition from the donors family (Jewish woman never married in her 30's) was it must go to a fellow religious Jew, that was the only way they would agree.

There are live transplants (instead of donations after death) that are directed--is that what happened?

It gets complicated (and I am NOT an expert on the subject, by any stretch--I've just had to learn a bit when we're figuring some family health stuff out), but, an example:

Say, my Mom needs a kidney. They search and find out that Jane Smith is a match. Jane Smith says "OK, DawbsMom can have a kidney...in exchange for a liver for Uncle Stewie". So all of my family gets tested and I'm a match for Uncle Stewie's liver. They set up to do both/all 4 surgeries at the same time (so no one backs out) and basically my family swaps my partial liver for one of Jane's kidneys.

I *thought* that's the only way to direct--when the donors are alive and it's "you can live w/ 1/2 a liver or only 1 kidney" thing.

[mnwnwmwmn]

The fundie baptist side of my family is opposed to most organ donations due to the bible verse stating "Life is in the blood", or something like that. They would never consent to any organ donation that required a neurological, not cardiac death, as they don't believe a neurological death is biblically valid and probably just an attempt on the part of doctors to harvest organs under false pretenses. Unfortunately, that rules out everything except some bodily tissues and living kidney donation. I hope they're never in the position to need an organ themselves, because if they accept one, the hypocrisy of it all will make me see stars.

Also, I do believe there is an unintended bias towards higher income patients qualifying to become organ recipients. The hurdles you have to jump through to qualify for an organ in our hospital system are massive. Tons of classes, clinic visits, and a slew of drugs you have to take upon discharge. The people who have the resources and family support to meet this criteria naturally tend to be of a higher socioeconomic status. It's really heart-breaking, but when you're dealing with such limited resource, criteria has to be set somewhere.

[docmom]

My little sister had a liver transplant when in preschool, due to a genetic condition. It made quite an impact in our local community and I know that many people registered their decision to donate. Of course, in the event of death, the next of kin must consent in any case (which I don't agree with in the slightest- it's your body, you get to choose what happens to it).

In New York State this is actually changing. From now on when you get a new driver's license and sign the organ donor consent, it is a legal document which allows your organs to be donated without requiring the consent of your family. I think it's an awesome idea and am looking forward to renewing my license with the new paperwork (not that it would be an issue with me as my entire family knows, respects and agrees with my wishes). Also, many people claim their loved one was too sick to qualify as an organ donor. While that may well be true for the "major" organs almost everyone can donate skin, bone and corneas.

[DrWhat]

The fundie baptist side of my family is opposed to most organ donations due to the bible verse stating "Life is in the blood", or something like that. They would never consent to any organ donation that required a neurological, not cardiac death, as they don't believe a neurological death is biblically valid and probably just an attempt on the part of doctors to harvest organs under false pretenses. Unfortunately, that rules out everything except some bodily tissues and living kidney donation. I hope they're never in the position to need an organ themselves, because if they accept one, the hypocrisy of it all will make me see stars.

Also, I do believe there is an unintended bias towards higher income patients qualifying to become organ recipients. The hurdles you have to jump through to qualify for an organ in our hospital system are massive. Tons of classes, clinic visits, and a slew of drugs you have to take upon discharge. The people who have the resources and family support to meet this criteria naturally tend to be of a higher socioeconomic status. It's really heart-breaking, but when you're dealing with such limited resource, criteria has to be set somewhere.

The bias is there, but it is intentional. The resources and family support needed to go through the organ recipient eval are a requirement to qualify because anyone who is going to get an organ must prove that they will be fully compliant with appointments, that they can afford the drugs and remember to take them on schedule, and that have the mental state to comprehend it all. It is unfortunate when social situation gets in the way, but giving a precious organ who can not afford the meds is doesn't have transport to appointments is not a wise use of organs.

[kthomp38+]

It really shocks me how many people are against organ donation. My mother was born with only one kidney which stopped functioning when she was thirty and I was eight. She was not able to get a kidney for fifteen years. It was a cadaver donation but we still keep in contact with the woman's daughter. My family knows that when I die I want as many of my organs donated as possible. I'll be in Heaven I won't need them anymore I'll have a new body,

[tenth muse]

In New York State this is actually changing. From now on when you get a new driver's license and sign the organ donor consent, it is a legal document which allows your organs to be donated without requiring the consent of your family. I think it's an awesome idea and am looking forward to renewing my license with the new paperwork (not that it would be an issue with me as my entire family knows, respects and agrees with my wishes). Also, many people claim their loved one was too sick to qualify as an organ donor. While that may well be true for the "major" organs almost everyone can donate skin, bone and corneas.

That's excellent.

[sableduck]

I have had a corneal transplant.

So at the rapture, who has my cornea? Is it still in my eye, or is it back in my donor's eye?

(I am and will ever be absolutely thankful to my donor's family for the ability to see my children grow up. I am just using this to illustrate the ridiculousness of their belief. If you believe God can make a human person from dust in the literal sense, than I am sure God can handle resurrecting a body with a few organs missing)

[nolongerIFBx]

Blecchh.

In the fundy circle I grew up in, organ donation was frowned upon for a couple of different reasons: because it could be seen as enabling or excusing sinful behavior (e.g., you shouldn't donate your liver because it might go to an alcoholic), and also the idea that we should not mutilate our bodies, even after death, at risk of not being raptured whole from the grave.

I can't believe I just wrote that. My family and church was bat-shit :cray-cray:

I am just finishing up a class called "THe Body in Western Christianity" and you might be surprised how much early church fathers argued and agonized over the idea of "not being raptured whole from the grave". So your family might not be that unusual. . .