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NotALoserLikeYou

So wait, even the Reformed type believe they might not be one of the elect?

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So wait, even the Reformed type believe they might not be one of the elect?

If they're honest, anyway. Only God knows for sure.

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uber frau

If they're honest, anyway. Only God knows for sure.

That, plus an emphasis on total depravity(everything you ever do is corrupted by sin because you're a dirty, rotten SINNER), is the reason i'll be in therapy until I die. Calvinism=major mindfuck r us.

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Petronella7

There used to be a couple of resident Calvinists here on FJ. They had a fascinating Ask Me Anything thread wherein they finally were pushed to admit their belief that the people who died in WW2 concentration camps are all in hell now because Jews. One of them, Raine, was later revealed as a neo-nazi white supremacist and run off the board.

I will never understand how Calvinists can call themselves Christians as their beliefs about election, limited salvation, etc are all completely against what the bible says.

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MysteryHaggis

Coming from a a background where Calvinism's main function these days is generating stereotypes that northern Scots are dour bastards (OK,a minority still do "NO FUN EVER,EVIL SIN!" but even my hyper traditionalist religious family members think they're ridiculous) the idea that this sort of Calvinism is still a thing is ...baffling in general.

The thing about Calvinism and sinning is that technically they can never be really truly sure that they are one of the Elect. The Elect wouldn't want to be sinners as much as the non-Elect, so if you do bad things like murder then you were probably never Elect in the first place.

Yes, this. I had a friend I met online, who turned out to be a sort of... neo Calvinist? He had been into drugs etc in his teens, to which extent I was never sure, since to him it was the worst thing ever and he talked it up. Then he was born again-literally, he told me his 22nd birthday was really his 5th, people got him kids' cards- into what he called neo-Puritanism. I listened to some of the church's sermons and tried not to laugh. Calvinist clichés a gogo.

I always wondered why he bothered. He saw himself as being a huge sinner thus far, so in terms of being the elect he's a bit fucked really. All the effort for nothing,

We met IRL a few times then he got married very quickly and dropped off the map. I worry about him :(

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MsSaylor

Sorry for the derail but can someone fill me in on what happened with raine? I remember her from when I used to just lurk occasionally and I remember her being somewhat open about being an "ex" neo nazi. Like she would say "when I used to be involved with such and such group". I remember thinking it was strange that FJ accepted this and wondered what the story was. I missed where she was run off thd board and am very curious.

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apple1
Coming from a a background where Calvinism's main function these days is generating stereotypes that northern Scots are dour bastards (OK,a minority still do "NO FUN EVER,EVIL SIN!" but even my hyper traditionalist religious family members think they're ridiculous) the idea that this sort of Calvinism is still a thing is ...baffling in general.

It's puzzling to me, too. But Calvinism has made major inroads in certain areas during my lifetime. The most apparent (to me, anyway) is its inroads into US Baptist churches, and especially the SBC. John Piper and Al Mohler have huge followings. However, there are just as many (maybe more) SBC members and churches that are totally not Calvinist. I still predict that the dichotomy over Calvinism will end up splitting the SBC into 2 separate groups. There is just too much that doesn't allow a meet-in-the-middle.

Aside: I will never understand the large number of people who view Piper as if he is some kind of earthly God.

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Calvinists are my pet peeve because I find them so damn annoying(apologies to any nonannoying Calvinists on this forum)

The ones that I came across online tend to believe that they are super intelligent and logical. Anyone who disagrees with them is being emotional and that is bad. The fact that you can be emotional and correct doesn't seem to occur to them. They have their pet bible verses and refuse to acknowledge that any verse contradicts their view. Often they don't even attempt to explain how those contradictory verses fit into their theology; they just throw more bible verses at the questioner as though they believe the person with the most bible verses wins.

They also tend to be overly wordy. Something that could be said in a few words needs to be explained by a wall of text.

I am sure that there are very nice and loving Calvinists who aren't arrogant jerks but that is how they come across online.

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EmiGirl
Calvinists are my pet peeve because I find them so damn annoying(apologies to any nonannoying Calvinists on this forum)

The ones that I came across online tend to believe that they are super intelligent and logical. Anyone who disagrees with them is being emotional and that is bad. The fact that you can be emotional and correct doesn't seem to occur to them. They have their pet bible verses and refuse to acknowledge that any verse contradicts their view. Often they don't even attempt to explain how those contradictory verses fit into their theology; they just throw more bible verses at the questioner as though they believe the person with the most bible verses wins.

They also tend to be overly wordy. Something that could be said in a few words needs to be explained by a wall of text.

You just described my husband 100% there. His staunch views on Calvinism ruined my Christmas last year.

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NotALoserLikeYou
There used to be a couple of resident Calvinists here on FJ. They had a fascinating Ask Me Anything thread wherein they finally were pushed to admit their belief that the people who died in WW2 concentration camps are all in hell now because Jews. One of them, Raine, was later revealed as a neo-nazi white supremacist and run off the board.

I will never understand how Calvinists can call themselves Christians as their beliefs about election, limited salvation, etc are all completely against what the bible says.

Fundies like the duggars believe that too. Most Christians would say you need to have accepted Jesus to go to heaven. Although if you delve deeper into theology and certain verses, there are different theories for what happens to people who seek god but have never heard of Jesus (a Muslim woman raised in a village in the mountains of Afghanistan for example, what kind of chance does she have to "be saved" or "hear the gospel") and a lot of Christians have a hard time accepting orthodox Jews, who actively seek god and his law, would be turned away from heaven.

But in general, I guess there are missionaries sent out to save people who have never heard of Jesus because of the belief that they are damned. I have a hard time believing god would reject a native tribal person who never even had the chance to hear about him.

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bananacat
There used to be a couple of resident Calvinists here on FJ. They had a fascinating Ask Me Anything thread wherein they finally were pushed to admit their belief that the people who died in WW2 concentration camps are all in hell now because Jews. One of them, Raine, was later revealed as a neo-nazi white supremacist and run off the board.

I will never understand how Calvinists can call themselves Christians as their beliefs about election, limited salvation, etc are all completely against what the bible says.

Can you be any more specific about "what the bible says" though? The Bible is many different books written in many different times and places and for many different reasons. It says a lot of contradictory things and I don't think there's anything clear-cut that says Calvinism is wrong. Extra-biblical sources influence all branches of Christianity to some extent too. I'm not saying I agree with Calvinists because I'm an atheist and I never believed in Calvinism even when I was a Christian, but I don't think it's as simple as saying they go against what the Bible says. It has been an ongoing theological debate since the beginning of Christianity.

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What are Calvinists views on number of children, I wonder?

It seems odd to go to all that trouble not to sin if your behaviour doesn't have an effect anyway.

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GenerationCedarchip
What are Calvinists views on number of children, I wonder?

It seems odd to go to all that trouble not to sin if your behaviour doesn't have an effect anyway.

Raised reformed fundie here, and I have to say that the different groups of Calvinists are all over the map. ON the fundie-farm, quiverfull was still kind of fringe(though it's much more mainstream now) but growing up I heard everything from "use natural family planing only" to "it's your duty to have or adopt as many children as you can financially handle."

Among the less fundie Calvinists, I think folks who choose not to have children would still be looked at askance, but the primary teaching seems to be that one should follow God's leading in unselfishly planning a family. I've heard many variations on that last sentence and people seem to interpret as everything from not using birth control to figuring they've "done their duty" once they've had 2-3 kids.

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  • 6 years later...

Late to the party, but the rhetoric here regarding "unconditional election" needed an answer. I was in search of another topic when I stumbled upon this one.

Calvinists - God elected some people to salvation and the rest he left to suffer the result of their sin, as is His right and His word. The non-elect weren't "innocent" people, they were sinners for which it can't be denied. The wages of sin is death. If you were elected (pardoned) you were given grace from your sins. 

Non-Calvinists - Believe in free will. They accept that God is omniscient and omnipotent, and therefore knew who would and would not accept salvation, and created them ANYWAY. He did the same thing under this view that they mock Calvinists for believing. It is IMPOSSIBLE for God to be OMNIPOTENT and OMNISCIENT and not have created some to suffer hell. Impossible. It is impossible to believe in God and His Holy Bible and not believe he is omniscient. You can't have it both ways. So you either believe in His word and take Him at His word, or you believe in a false doctrine.

They're two means to the same end. In other words, you can take God at His word that he elected some, or not. God says he chose some and not others, it's His word. He pardoned some who were sinners and left the other sinners to suffer their due wrath. Do you protest when a Governor gives a pardon to an inmate, but not to all inmates? God has the right to pardon whom He will, and in fact he says as much in the bible. 

We wouldn't be the first person to think that we know better about justice than God. Or the first to question God's authority and plan. Satan had similar thoughts. Know your bible and know God.

If you love God then you are required to seek out the truth. How you lead other people to God, or how you misguide them and possibly dissuade them from salvation will be held against you.  Everything I've read here in this thread, in a mocking manner against Calvinists, is actually quite clearly explained in the bible... how could it be any easier to understand for those who open their eyes and heart to Christ? 

I heartily encourage you to check out this presentation from the late R.C. Sproul, it'll make it easier to understand. You can listen to the entire course or just this one section on unconditional election. God be with you all. 

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/what_is_reformed_theology/unconditional-election/?

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Or, you know, just do that crazy Jesus thing of loving with an open heart, accepting, forgiving unconditionally like a damn boss, feeding poor people, and so forth. 

Here's how it's done in my town:

Mobile Loaves and Fishes:  mlf.org

Community First! Village: mlf.org/community-first/

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treehugger

Ooohhh, did we just get Calvinist-splained over here? @Heartland, I was bottle fed TULIP.  While I remain a Christian (of the Anglican variety), I can say with complete seriousness that the Calvanist god is an asshole.  I don't feel any more of a compelling need to respect a god like that than I feel the need to respect a dictatorial government that commits  genocide or ethnic cleansing against a group of people who just happened to be born the wrong kind of person.  

It is possible to read the Bible through the appropriate cultural and historical lense and realize that there is a lot of mystery and unanswered questions. Or you can create a monster. 

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