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doggie

Some Mormons Search the Web and Find Doubt

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doggie

How ignorant of your religion do you have to be not to know the founder was a polygamist? don't forget a two time jailbird and wife stealer and pedophile? I guess hiding truths is backfiring.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/us/so ... l?hp&_r=4&

 

But when he discovered credible evidence that the church's founder, Joseph Smith, was a polygamist and that the Book of Mormon and other scriptures were rife with historical anomalies, Mr. Mattsson said he felt that the foundation on which he had built his life began to crumble.

Edited by OnceUponATime
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Trynn
d he felt that the foundation on which he had built his life began to crumble.

Which is a very hard feeling. It's so very tempting to put it aside and go through life not thinking about it.

Well, when you're always taught Mormon history from a Mormon point of view, sure you're probably going to be ignorant of a few things. Especially if he grew up in the days before the internet, it's sadly not that uncommon.

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doggie

How pathetic that you have to hide the truth of your religion from the believers. wonder why I don't want to follow a religion???

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engineer5

Most mormons know about the events in church history (polygamy and mountain meadows). We even talk about it in sunday school. Most people who leave the church don't want to parade how "horrible the church is."

In my opinion its your own fault if you remain ignorant. I have seen anti mormon stuff and avoid not because it would "shake my faith" its because I've already seen it and its the same crap used in pamphlets in the 1830s.

Oh I didn't grow up in the church. I was atheist and after years of research and personal reflection I joined.

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Talitha Cumi
Most mormons know about the events in church history (polygamy and mountain meadows). We even talk about it in sunday school. Most people who leave the church don't want to parade how "horrible the church is."

In my opinion its your own fault if you remain ignorant. I have seen anti mormon stuff and avoid not because it would "shake my faith" its because I've already seen it and its the same crap used in pamphlets in the 1830s.

Oh I didn't grow up in the church. I was atheist and after years of research and personal reflection I joined.

Wow, that's really interesting. May I ask what led you to theism, and LDS in particular?

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Widget

Wow, that's really interesting. May I ask what led you to theism, and LDS in particular?

+1

That's got to be one heck of a story.

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engineer5

In high school I had several Mormon friends and wasn't ever interested then, I was even a little anti since I lived in the bible belt and the other christian denoms there don't even consider it Christian. It wasn't until after my freshmen year in college that I really just felt like all the partying and drinking and other stuff college students do wasn't right and wasn't going to help me become the adult I want to be. That was when I started seeing the church in a whole new light and remembered the experiences I had in my mormon friends' homes and wanted that Spirit. I then went to church up in Boston where I got to know the members and asked them anything along with reading the scriptures and the good and bad church material out there. After going to church for about a year, I was baptized. I took my time because if I make a commitment I want to know what I'm getting myself into and feel confident to press on. I'd had some trials since then, but my whole demeanor has changed and I feel like I'm on the right path in my life.

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rward
In high school I had several Mormon friends and wasn't ever interested then, I was even a little anti since I lived in the bible belt and the other christian denoms there don't even consider it Christian. It wasn't until after my freshmen year in college that I really just felt like all the partying and drinking and other stuff college students do wasn't right and wasn't going to help me become the adult I want to be. That was when I started seeing the church in a whole new light and remembered the experiences I had in my mormon friends' homes and wanted that Spirit. I then went to church up in Boston where I got to know the members and asked them anything along with reading the scriptures and the good and bad church material out there. After going to church for about a year, I was baptized. I took my time because if I make a commitment I want to know what I'm getting myself into and feel confident to press on. I'd had some trials since then, but my whole demeanor has changed and I feel like I'm on the right path in my life.

Okay, but what convinced you that a. God exists and b. that the Mormons got it right? The above doesn't answer that question at all.

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fundamentalistnomore
In high school I had several Mormon friends and wasn't ever interested then, I was even a little anti since I lived in the bible belt and the other christian denoms there don't even consider it Christian. It wasn't until after my freshmen year in college that I really just felt like all the partying and drinking and other stuff college students do wasn't right and wasn't going to help me become the adult I want to be. That was when I started seeing the church in a whole new light and remembered the experiences I had in my mormon friends' homes and wanted that Spirit. I then went to church up in Boston where I got to know the members and asked them anything along with reading the scriptures and the good and bad church material out there. After going to church for about a year, I was baptized. I took my time because if I make a commitment I want to know what I'm getting myself into and feel confident to press on. I'd had some trials since then, but my whole demeanor has changed and I feel like I'm on the right path in my life.

How do you resign yourself to the facts of Joseph Smiths marriages to some that were underage & some already married? How do you explain 2 Nephi 5:21 to people that are non white? How many gods are there? How did they explain of the historical inaccuracies?

//en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/Marriages_to_young_women

//worldview3.50webs.com/history.html

//20truths.info/mormon/abraham.html

2 Nephi 5:21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

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stonefruit
Most mormons know about the events in church history (polygamy and mountain meadows). We even talk about it in sunday school. Most people who leave the church don't want to parade how "horrible the church is."

In my opinion its your own fault if you remain ignorant. I have seen anti mormon stuff and avoid not because it would "shake my faith" its because I've already seen it and its the same crap used in pamphlets in the 1830s.

Oh I didn't grow up in the church. I was atheist and after years of research and personal reflection I joined.

Well, it clearly can't be "the same crap" from the writings against Mormonism in the 1830s, because that was before the "revelation" that, shocker, non-white people aren't non-white because of sin.

How do you feel about posthumous baptism, incidentally?

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Waffle Time
Mela99
How ignorant of your religion do you have to be not to know the founder was a polygamist? don't forget a two time jailbird and wife stealer and pedophile? I guess hiding truths is backfiring.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/us/so ... l?hp&_r=4&

But when he discovered credible evidence that the church’s founder, Joseph Smith, was a polygamist and that the Book of Mormon and other scriptures were rife with historical anomalies, Mr. Mattsson said he felt that the foundation on which he had built his life began to crumble.

Interesting... I thought most were raised with a good history of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and the like.

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engineer5

I used to ask these type of questions but quickly I would find an answer to all of them that was logical and i felt were right.

How do you resign yourself to the facts of Joseph Smiths marriages to some that were underage & some already married? How do you explain 2 Nephi 5:21 to people that are non white? How many gods are there? How did they explain of the historical inaccuracies? "

Back then, it wasn't that uncommon for people to marry young teens. I don't have any mormon ancestors but the ones from the 1800s married young and had children young with the women often in their teens. Its more of a cultural thing than anything else. As of polygamy, the only times God as instituted the practice is when a large number of people were needed to be born into followers such as Israel and Abraham.

2 Nephi is mistakenly interpreted as race. White and black have always been symbols throughout the old and new testament for good and bad. No doubt that early members took this too literally for too long. All Native Americans do not have ancestral Jewish blood. The group that entered into the Americas in 600 BC acknowledge that there were many other groups there as well. Having Whiteness or blackness upon skin in this context refers to wearing righteousness or unrighteousness just like having the robes of righteousness. Reading it from cover to cover helps with the context.

We only have one God who we follow, but we believe there are others with an exalted status. We believe that Heavenly father and Jesus Christ have exalted statuses but are distinct entities along with the Holy Ghost that is what we call the Godhead. We believe Jesus Christ helped formed the earth and therefore is an exalted being. We believe there are other exalted beings such as a Heavenly mother. Every human being has the potential to grow into the eternities to become exalted like God. I don't believe I will get my own planet as some like to say.

What historical accuracies are you talking about? in the book of mormon?

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engineer5

"How do you feel about posthumous baptism, incidentally?"

Its a beautiful practice. I love the temple! No one is forcing anyone to be Mormon. I like this analogy where Baptism for the Dead is like leaving tickets at will call and hope that someone will join you at the show. We believe that after we die there is still so much opportunity for growth in the spirit and doing temple work helps us to participate in accomplishing the work.

I'm a Salt Lake Temple worker and everything in the temple is beautiful and edifying. It's a place where I feel close to heaven and this world's craziness goes away for a few hours.

Members of the church have gotten a little crazy ( submitting for Elvis and Jews in the holocaust which are against church policy) lately so to submit names there are a lot of rules.

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engineer5

"Interesting... I thought most were raised with a good history of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and the like."

It depends on the family. Some people are prepared and taught in a healthy and appropriate manner, others not so much. Also false information used to be spread around as fact ( i.e., polgamy existed because of a shortage of women)

I had this great religion teacher who was amazing and would talk about subjects some other members are hesitant to talk about such as Freemasonry and the Federal Government coming to Utah. I think some leaders are now realizing that knowledge is power and we should strive to learn and understand everything in our church history and scriptures.

Interesting fact: Atheists, Mormons, and Jews know the most about the Bible of all religious groups.

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infooverload

A little off topic, but has anyone noticed every flippin testimonial for Christianity has some variant of I was abusing alcohol or drugs and was lost. I swear I have never heard one where people are all like was just peachy and I decided to throw God in to make it even peachier. Sorry pet peeve of mine that almost every story is the same for the numerous testimonials I've heard of had to read about. I mean I'm to the point I can almost pin point the moment the reference is going to come up and my eyes roll so far into the back of my head I think they are going to be planted there.

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engineer5

"Okay, but what convinced you that a. God exists and b. that the Mormons got it right? The above doesn't answer that question at all."

It was a gradual process of reading the scriptures, praying, and feeling the holy spirit in my life. In the book of Mormon there is Moroni's promise, which is that if you search with a true and honest heart, you will find God. I felt all the enticing of the holy spirit (peace, joy,etc). When I'm in a religious environment (singing hymns, etc) I feel like I was existed and was close to God before I was born. All of this didn't come to be at once, it was little by little as much as I put in effort. For instance, when I started dressing more modesty ( no more cleavage or short dresses) I felt more comfortable and felt the Spirit more.

Does that help?

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engineer5

I wasn't abusing anything, I was just a normal college student btw. My life was going really well at the time actually.

It just helped me to realize I felt I had a high standard to live.

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BalconySmoker
"

I'm a Salt Lake Temple worker and everything in the temple is beautiful and edifying. .

The temple is beautiful and edifying FOR YOU. I thought it was an absolute freak show, and I was super pissed that I wasn't better prepared for the ordinances in the temple. Those temple prep courses tell you absolute dick all about the temple.

There's nothing edifying about groping somebody's hand through a curtain and wearing stupid costumes while getting told you are suddenly "holier" for the experience.

Source: I left the church shortly after receiving a temple recommend. Fuck that nonsense. I wish I had known better or I would have never bothered with the church in the first place.

It took a notarized resignation letter sent to headquarters in SLC, two years and threats of legal action to get the LDS church to leave me the hell alone after I said I wanted out. I only lost my entire family in the process.

Fuck the Mormon church. Seriously.

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engineer5

I'm sorry you felt this way. I was super prepared because I did my research and knew what I was going into. You are right temple prep isnt very helpful. I felt it was my responsibility as a convert to read as many books and know the scriptures super well beforehand. No one "gropes" you in the temple, you make symbolic signs to the covenant making alike in the old testament. The temple clothes are beautiful and symbolic and our progression into the eternities. I had a roommate who didn't like the temple and disenchanted her but I think that's cause her parents didn't help her in that regard and she didn't care to seek out materials beforehand.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience, all of our experiences in life are subjective and deeply personal. I hope you are able to move on and find what you need. That is horrible you lost your family, that isn't right for family members to produce penalties for not participating. As for me, I'm very happy and know I'm where I belong.

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BalconySmoker
I was super prepared because I did my research and knew what I was going into.

If you were "super prepared" you did so because you went through other channels to receive your information. Temple prep tells you nothing. Which at the time I went, we were specifically instructed NOT to do. For many, many years the church leadership told us we were only to learn about the church, it's history and it's ordinances ONLY from the church. They may teach something different now, I have no idea because I keep as far away from the Morg as possible. Other endowed church members are not supposed to tell you anything either, or at least they weren't at the time.

I felt it was my responsibility as a convert to read as many books and know the scriptures super well beforehand.

Fucking ducky for you. It's statements like this that make me furious. There is always this implication by Mormons that if you left, it MUST be because you didn't know the scriptures well enough. Or because you neglected your responsibility somewhere. The blame is always on the person who left, and not actually where it belongs: with the church and it's leadership. Do Mormons honestly not realize how obnoxious they sound when they say shit like this?

No one "gropes" you in the temple, you make symbolic signs to the covenant making alike in the old testament. The temple clothes are beautiful and symbolic and our progression into the eternities.

Look sugar, you can call that shit whatever you want. I've heard it all before. It's a secret handshake ripped off from the Masons. Point blank. It wasn't beautiful back in my day when they made you make gestures where you pretended to slit your own throat. But tell yourself whatever you want to make yourself feel better.

I had a roommate who didn't like the temple....she didn't care to seek out materials beforehand.

Again, blame the person. If I had to hazard a guess, i'd say she was doing what she was told

I'm sorry you had a bad experience

Fucking kidding me? "Sorry you had a bad experience"? That's what the manager of McDonalds would tell you if you complained after the staff forgot your napkins. My life was ruined because I left that church. My husband DIVORCED me for no other reason than I left the church, and took my first child and my family with him. I was harassed by the missionaries and various members of my stake for YEARS. I had rumors spread about me becoming a drug addict, about me being crazy. All approved and encouraged by my former bishop. LDS leaders are either inspired by God or they aren't.

You act like that's not typical, but it very much is. Get your head out of the sand.

As for me, I'm very happy and know I'm where I belong.

If you honestly believe in the horseshit you just wrote, then you do belong there.

I'm here to snark on fundies, not get some faux-pity from a Morgbot. Why the fuck are you here?

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polabear
I used to ask these type of questions but quickly I would find an answer to all of them that was logical and i felt were right.

How do you resign yourself to the facts of Joseph Smiths marriages to some that were underage & some already married? How do you explain 2 Nephi 5:21 to people that are non white? How many gods are there? How did they explain of the historical inaccuracies? "

Back then, it wasn't that uncommon for people to marry young teens. I don't have any mormon ancestors but the ones from the 1800s married young and had children young with the women often in their teens. Its more of a cultural thing than anything else. As of polygamy, the only times God as instituted the practice is when a large number of people were needed to be born into followers such as Israel and Abraham.

[snip]

I am just going to take your first argument. In the 1800s, marriage to young teens wasn't just uncommon - it was downright rare. Here's a link to a pro-Mormon analysis, which actually was attempting their very hardest to justify the young marriages:

http://www.fairblog.org/2010/02/01/19c- ... aganda-ii/

First, here is a graph I assume they made in Excel. I'm not sure where they got their numbers - they cite "USA Long Term Age Dependent Cumulative Marriage Rates"

longterm.jpg

From their own image, the percentage of women who were 14 years old at their first marriage were very tiny, well under 2%, even as far back as 1800. The 15 year olds were only a smidge more frequently married.

That site also has a table with a bunch of adjusted mean ages from 1880, even taking into account the various things they are doing to the mean to try and make it look good, only 2.1% of 14 year olds were married.

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canbritam
Interesting fact: Atheists, Mormons, and Jews know the most about the Bible of all religious groups.

Fact according to whom? Any Jew I've met doesn't know much of anything about the New Testament because they don't believe in it. I've talked to more than a few LDS members who openly admit that they've been taught more about the Book of Mormon and relatively little about the Bible in and of itself. Atheists, that I can buy.

I'd like to see some actually legit sources on this, not just your opinion.

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fundamentalistnomore

Thanks for answering my questions, engineer5. I would like to understand better, how a person can go from atheism to mormonism. I don't know how a person could truly believe any of it. I can't wrap my head around all the information out there that Mormons turn a blind eye to. Also every Mormon that I have met, their testimony is always about their feelings, "I know the church is true" type of answers. What about the wives he stole from other men? Your answer about the gods thing, I didn't ask one god you follow, I meant how many gods total? (in all the universes & planets)

2Nephi, I was referring to anyone having darker skin or not 100% white. However, there were some early opinions IRT to blacks:

“Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species...â€

- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., January 2, 1845, History of the Church, v. 5, pp. 21-218

“Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so. The nations of the earth have transgressed every law that God has given, they have changed the ordinances and broken every covenant made with the fathers, and they are like a hungry man that dreameth that he eateth, and he awaketh and behold he is empty.â€

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 10, p. 110

"However, in a broad general sense, caste systems have their root and origin in the gospel itself, and when they operate according to the divine decree, the resultant restrictions and segregation are right and proper and have the approval of the Lord. To illustrate: Cain, Ham, and the whole negro race have been cursed with a black skin, the mark of Cain, so they can be identified as a caste apart, a people with whom the other descendants of Adam should not intermarry.â€

- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 114

Spencer W. Kimball had his revelation to reverse the priesthood holding; It came after Mormonism spread to Brazil in the 1970s. Indecently, the whole polygamy revelation came about 1890 when Utah wanted statehood.

Inaccuracies:

Smith's "Inspired Revision" of the King James Bible, Joseph Smiths prophecies that did not come true. Smith's The "Kinderhook Plates," Book of Abraham: Joseph smith translated some Egyptian writings to make this book, however around 1967 Egyptologists translated the papyri and proved it to be false.

Tanner, Jerald and Sandra (1979). The Changing World of Mormonism. Moody Press. pp. 319–328.

exmormon.org/tract2.htm

utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech17.htm#Destruction of Expositor

http://packham.n4m.org/prophet.htm

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doggie
A little off topic, but has anyone noticed every flippin testimonial for Christianity has some variant of I was abusing alcohol or drugs and was lost. I swear I have never heard one where people are all like was just peachy and I decided to throw God in to make it even peachier. Sorry pet peeve of mine that almost every story is the same for the numerous testimonials I've heard of had to read about. I mean I'm to the point I can almost pin point the moment the reference is going to come up and my eyes roll so far into the back of my head I think they are going to be planted there.

because religion is an acceptable drug. look at the duggers They use religion to deny reality to have a constant happy life. the same reason people do drugs to escape from realty and try to dull the hurt. But religion can hook children far sooner then drugs do.

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